A Hard Question for Christians

[Miss Anthrope]

Wesmel106, I have to say, you are getting OWNED in this thread, particularly by SSY and Gwyn, and part of me keeps wanting to feel kind of bad, especially as someone who's more on the agnostic end of atheism. I just can't, though, as most of what you've said reinforces the hypocrisy and narrowmindedness of religious "logic". You've expressed almost every stereotypical, canned Christian response in the book, and its disappointing, because I honestly WOULD like to see even a remotely comprehensible take on the dilemma in my opening. I was, admittedly, not really expecting one, but I was open to having my expectations shattered. Not so much now. It seems cognitive dissonance is inseperable from religious thinking, as you seem completely blind to the contradictions and essentially evil aspects of the Bible. Believing in a creator and spiritual themes is one thing, but when you start claiming that the Bible is some infallible, sweet natured guidebook you lose your ability to rationally explain why what I said is wrong. It's very simple: Your God is omni-everything, so that includes omni-accountable. He KNOWINGLY created a scenario in which a majority of his little creatures will BURN forever simply for not believing the "right thing". that's what it all comes down to, because according to Christianity a person who spends their whole life causing suffering and even steering others towards hell can simply say "I believe that Jesus is the son of god, yada yada yada" and attain salvation, but a little old lady who never hurt anyone in her life will suffer for eternity because she beleived in evolution. Yet you ACTUALLY tried to make it sound as though the purpose of heaven and hell was reward/punishment system for attrocities committed on earth. Much like the way you claim the Bible has to be read a certain way to be understood, you would actually have to alter your views on morals, love, and justice to sync yourself up with God's ways, which according to the Bible are cruel, contradictory, rascist, misogynistic...in a word, PRIMITIVE.

A world of nothing but Christians would be like a paradise? Sorry, buddy, I'm a misanthrope, and I believe that in such an unlikely scenario MORE attrocities would  be committed if the Bible in its current form was the lawbook or "Constitution" of such a world. Look at how divided the Christians are even NOW, and what would happen to the odd non-believer in such a world? Hmm, an entire world of people whose lawbook justifies killing non-believers? Homosexuals would be dangling from nooses in the streets. If you think I'm being unfair, bear in mind that, as a misanthrope, I believe that almost any idealogy and a majority of humans to back it up is potetnially dangerous to an "outsider", a world full of atheists could be dangerous to a spiritual thinker. There is no perfect fix for humanity, ESPECIALLY not a religion built on a book rife with horrific, intolerant rules.

[wesmel06]

Alright I'm so far behind in this thread that it would literally take me a day or two to break down everything that has been said here. Since I don't have that amount of time I'm going to just highlight some of the points you've all tried to make. I won't quote anyone but since all of you pretty well bring up the same stuff I'll focus on the major points.

Christianity Being Violent/Scams/Etc
As far as Christianity being violent is concerned I would have to disagree. Christianity today does not condone murder, rape, stealing, or anything else that could be called wrong. Most christian people I know won't speak a curse word or say God's name in vain let alone go out and do any of those things like murder that I just mentioned. Do people have flaws? Yes. Do people make mistakes? Of course. However just because christian people arent perfect doesn't mean that christianity is a false religion. Thats why we repent and pray for forgiveness because we have walked off of our christian paths. It isn't christianity making christians mess up sometimes. It's humanity being..well..human.

My church holds fundraisers for causes all the time and I can assure you this is legitimate due to all the thank you letters we have recieved from different causes. Some ministries even go overseas to teach people about the gospel who don't have the resources to do so themselves. They feed the hungry and build shelters/hospitals for them too.

Men who cook up scams to make money off of christianity arent even christians. There is a difference in someone saying that they are a christian and actually being one. If you want to invest money in religion give it to a church. Not some nut who thinks he knows when the second coming of Jesus will happen. Anyone who falls for those scams are either uneducated or just plain silly. Giving your money to a church is a much better bet.

As far as homosexuals being hung in the street? That isn't supported by any of our christian beliefs. If someone is a homosexual that is their decision. I know people who are homosexual and I don't treat them any different than anyone else. It's not my place to judge them. The only true judge in my honest opinion is the most high God himself.

Now as far as your history lesson is concerned I'll gladly comment. The Spanish Inquisition was a group that went about converting people the entirely wrong way. It wasn't all christians as you make it sound. It was just a group of people calling themselves christians.

You see Spain is a nation that was born out of religious struggles between numerous different belief systems. In 1478 the inquisition was started to purify the people of Spain and to unify the country. Torquemada was responsible for establishing the rules of inquisitorial procedure. These rules werent from Christianity. They were from a single leader. So how can you blame Christianity when it's obvious that this group of people were just being mislead by a leader who did not the follow the commandments that Christians are suppose to? How can you say that Christianity is false at least in this instance when it's obvious that no real christian principals were being used during this inquisition? You can't. You see the inquisiton wasn't just about religion. It was also about politics and control. A certain group wanted to dominate all the others. Not just dominate but eliminate them.

Let me remind you of World War 2. The Nazi's wanted to rule over Germany. How did they end up taking power? They blamed other religions/groups as the reason Germany wasn't great. They decided that the Jews were the problem. Then if you have a dictator in control of this (Adolf Hitler) who is charismatic and has enough power this group can do whatever they want. So what did they do? They built their camps and tried to eliminate their enemies. Sounds a little familiar doesn't it? Just like the Nazis the Inquisition wanted to rule over everyone else. Religion was just a way of developing a following. Bringing people to their "christianity" wasn't the main purpose of the inquisition.

I know as athiests on this forum you want to prove that christianity isnt real. I know that a christian coming into your house and promoting christianity is like nails on a chalkboard. However all you have done is highlight points which make christianity seem negative. Not all of them I believe to be true either. What about all the good that has come from christianity? Would you wish away all the lives saved because of christianity? That little kid in Africa that was fed because a christian ministry went there to make a difference is obviously just a myth like everything else right? All christians would have to be people who kill/discriminate against others because some group gave them a bad name centuries ago right? I mean if one single guy thinks he knows when Jesus will come back then the entire religion that is Christianity must agree with his ways of thinking. It isn't possible for anyone else in the religion to maybe  think differently and not want to scam people. lol please....

Let me explain that I think that all of you are obviously well educated on the subject. I'd rather debate all of you than someone who has no knowledge on the subject and just resorts to insults when they get stuck in a corner. However I think you guys, as smart as you are, are missing the entire point of christianity. It isn't about one religion being better than all of the others despite the fact that I do believe that to be true. It isn't about one group of people being right while another is wrong. It's about loving one another. It's about doing good for other people. Not killing them if they don't convert lol. When I say that if everyone was a christian that the world would be a great place to live I mean it. What about the non believers who won't convert? Well just let them be. It's their decision. We arent the ones who are suppose to judge you anyway. That is reserved only for God. I mean just because we don't agree with Islam doesn't mean we are going to bomb the hell out of their countries lol. Islam on the other hand for no reason at all decided they wanted to try to cripple the United States. Whats that saying about Islam comparing it to Christianity?

Lets look at Jesus as an example. He is the only christian to never stray off of the christian path. He converted people not by torture or murder but by love. This is much different from the way your spanish inquisiton did things. If Jesus in a way is christianity itself then how can you say that Jesus/The Inquisition came from the same religion? Obviously they had different ways of doing things. Jesus was a true christian. Others just use christianity in a way that will benefit them or their causes which doesn't make them true christian followers.

My point? When you think of Christianity I want you to picture Jesus Christ. That is christianity in it's true form. Jesus Christ would never have given permission to kill anyone that did not convert. It wasnt a true christian belief. Get it?

Something We Havent Talked About Yet
My mother has worked in a nursing home almost her entire life. You know what that means? My mother is around death all of the time. She has witnessed more deaths than she can count over the years. She's told me stories about some of these deaths as well. Some of them are scary while others are heartwarming. I promise I have a point lol.

One time my mother told me about a man who had just passed on in the nursing home. The entire day the man was frightened she said. She claimed that he kept yelling crazy things to her. Things like "Please dont let them take me". Later that day the man passed away. How can you explain that? Was it just his old age making him see things? Was the old man just crazy? Lets look at some more of these stories before we decide.

Another time my mother told me of another man she was taking care of. He had passed away but had been brought back. She tells me that once he was brought back that the man was very shaken up. He claimed that when he had died that he was going to hell. Shortly after all of this the man was baptised and started reading the bible. How do you explain that? Even though the man literally died did his brain just jump out of his body, reconnect with his soul, and make him believe that he was going to a fictional place called hell lol? I don't think thats possible. Were the people in the room that revived him just dreaming that the man had died? They all had the same illusion? Yeah right lol. Moving on...

This will be the last story by the way. My mother also told me about a woman she took care of in her nursing home. The woman kept telling my mother that she could see her husband. She told my mother that she would die soon and go to be with her husband. The very next day she passed away. Was it true or was this just a good guess?

When your around death all of the time you see things that other people just dont. How can you explain all of these stories? How can you prove that they didnt happen? You can't. So is it so hard to believe that some questions human beings just dont have an answer for? Try to convince any men/woman who work at hospitals/nursing homes that God is made up and they'll find it very hard to believe. How can you explain the fact that a person dies with a slight smile on their face? Is it because they are happy to finally be dead or because there is something great waiting for them on the other side?

Athiest View On Life/No Afterlife
One of you said "Becuase life is finite, it sends the message to cherish every second you have, better yourself, learn things, experience the world, create and receive as much love as possible." That might work for you but what about other people? Not everyone would live their lives this way if they believed that God wasn't real. You seem to take the news rather well but since not all of us think alike how would others react?

Lets say someone lost their entire family in a car accident. They are depressed and don't have anything to live for. If there isn't a heaven where you will get to see your family again then why wouldn't that person just end it? Your telling me that after losing your entire family you would want to get out and experience new things and better yourself lol? If there is a heaven you have a reason to remain alive and to live with zeal. Not the other way around. Heaven in a way is hope. Nothing after death is the exact opposite..hopeless.

I'm sure out there somewhere is a person who is holding on just because of religion. I mean if you've messed up your life terribly then at least you can still repent and go to heaven. Someone spoke of christians in prison earlier right? What hope do they have if they have life in prison? At least if they repent and change their evil ways they can still go to heaven right? They arent just done for like you would have them believe. I think your way of thinking only works for people who don't make a lot of mistakes lol. Or for people who are lucky enough to not have terrible things happen to them on accident. I think that in a way is kind of living in a fantasy world where people are free to just do as they please with no one ever doing anything bad because it would mess up anothers earth experience lol. I'm sorry if I sound a little sarcastic but that doesnt sound right to me. I just know I'd rather live in a world with an afterlife as opposed to one without an afterlife.

Athiests: He's crazy because he thinks there is a god.
Wesmel06: They have to be crazy. They think life is an amusement park.

God Allowing Sin
Someone didn't understand what I was saying about this earlier so I'll cover it one more time. "I thought god hated sin?" Yes your right he does. However he wants us to hate sin as well. How do we learn to hate sin? We experience it. If your father (God) told you that drinking is bad how would you know it was bad if you didnt try it? I mean tons of other people do it too right? It can't be that bad if a lot of people seem to enjoy it. You try alcohol and end up in a wheelchair after a drunk driving accident. Yeah..dad (God) was right. You sinned and you have to deal with the results afterwards. However in heaven someday you'll get your legs back. The results of that sin arent forever if you repent and change. God still loves you even though you make mistakes and dont always listen to him.

Miss Anthrope also commented on this subject. I know it's hard to wrap your mind around the fact that a little old lady might burn in hell if she isnt a believer. However is she sinless? The answer is no. Everyone has commited a sin at one time or another. By accepting christ your sins are wiped clean. I mean really changing the way you live too. Not just accepting christ and then go out and beat the hell out of someone or cheat on your girlfriend lol.

As far as a parent locking their child in the oven for all eternity..lol..I've been taught that we are not children of God until we accept Christ as our savior. Becoming a child of god is our decision. God does everything he can to try and point you in the right direction. However you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Becoming a child of god is something that God wants you to decide to do. Not something he can force you to do. You can't say that people arent informed about some type of religion either. Christianity is preached all over the globe. It isnt like God doesnt tell us how to save ourselves from hell.

I'm a good example of that. I wasn't raised in a christian family. I didnt even care that a God or higher being existed until I started getting more interested about the age of 20 or 21. The information is out there. All you have to do is open up your mind.

That does it for me today folks. I'm sure tommorow when I come back I'll have a crapload to catch up on as well. Now see if you all would just convert to christianity we could all stop this and find something else to do with our time. (couldnt help myself lol) Later.

[curiosityandthecat]

I just know I'd rather live in a world with an afterlife as opposed to one without an afterlife.

I'd rather live in a world without religion, violence and country music. Tough titties.

All you have to do is open up your mind.

A Christian telling freethinkers to open their minds. That's rich.

Could you please explain what you're trying to accomplish by posting this (well-meaning) drivel?

[Ihateyoumike]

Now as far as your history lesson is concerned I'll gladly comment. The Spanish Inquisition was a group that went about converting people the entirely wrong way. It wasn't all christians as you make it sound. It was just a group of people calling themselves christians.

Any credibility you may have had left is now officially gone, in my mind. I tried, I really tried, to get myself past thinking that you were just the same as messenger and would post smarter stuff than this drivel. You let me down.

 Guess what, I don't think you and your group are christians, I think you're just a group going around calling yourself christian. Try to prove me wrong.

I just couldn't pull myself to read any farther in that post past this paragraph.

[gwyn428]

Giving your money to a church is a much better bet.

I'd prefer a secular charity that I have carefully researched.  

[Miss Anthrope]

Wesel106, nobody here is missing your points, the probelm is you make too many conflicting points.

There is a difference between Christianity as you and others practice it and the guidelines set forth in the Bible. I believe you when you say you would not
condone hanging a homosexual, but the fact is YOUR BIBLE CONDONES, nay, COMMANDS IT. Could the world be a better, more peaceful place if everyone practiced certain guidelines in the Bible, sure, but as it is your religion is very double-sided and contradictory. Yet you insisted that there aren't any contradictions in the Bible, when it is FULL of them, even at the most fundamental levels. According to the Bible, the perpetrators of the Spanish inquisition were fully justified according to the Bible. In fact, considering that eternal hell fire awaits non-believers, torture is small potatoes. Your "peaceful Christianity" is worse in some respects, becasue your willing to smile and laugh with a non-beleiver and yet accept that your God will allow them to suffer forever simply for not having the right belief, a belief for which there is no proof. I can't stand the whole "Well, people all over the world are exposed to Chritianity at some point, so they have their chance to make the right decsion." thing. Consider how stubborn and deeply rooted your beliefs are, and imagine someone coming along and saying "hey, did you know that Splotzitz is the daughter of Gaia, creator of all things. Won't you accept Splotzitz into your life as your personal savior." Are you just gonna abandon your beliefs becasue of something someone tells you? Do you think you should suffer forever if you don't? It's a flimsy, petty premise.

I personally don't have an issue with the idea of a "creator" of some sorts or life after death (but I don't beleive there are any specific answers about such things, nor do I believe they would be even remotely similar to typical human constructs of such things). If there IS a god, I find it pathetic to think he's so petty that it would really matter to him if I drank some alcohol (which isn't a "sin" in and of itself, btw) or mentally undressed a girl. Imagine God watching a Christian going up to a Muslim, the peaceful type for the sake of this argument, a Muslim who was raised with his own beliefs all his life, and the Christian tells him about Jesus. The Christian has absolutely no proof to back up his claims, so wouldn't a RATIONAL, SUPER iNTELLIGENT God be able to understand how ridiculous it is to expect people to just believe something for no apparent reason. You might say, "Well, God will reveal himself if he chooses to.", something I hear from my family al the time. Well, what about the people he DOESN'T "reveal himself" to? Bad luck for them, huh, they weren't on the better side of God's abberant whimsy?

[flyingfox]

As an ex-muslim I don't know much about Christianity ather then what I.'ve seen on TV . It's interesting how similar the arguements by christians are to muslims. Of course, wesmel06 is very condemning of muslims but that's understandable. However, all the arguements he put forward are very similar to what a muslim would say..

[Kyuuketsuki]

As an ex-muslim I don't know much about Christianity ather then what I.'ve seen on TV . It's interesting how similar the arguements by christians are to muslims. Of course, wesmel06 is very condemning of muslims but that's understandable. However, all the arguements he put forward are very similar to what a muslim would say..

Yes it's interesting that some Christians have a go at me because I don't attack Islam and likewise some Muslim's defend on the basis that I know little of Islam ... I have actually debated some Muslims but I'm not good at it and the truth is I focus on Christianity because it's what I know. I have a couple of copies of the Quran but I've never read them ... reading the bible is hard enough ... both make me fall asleep!!!!

Kyu

[I_heart_doG]

Lets say someone lost their entire family in a car accident. They are depressed and don't have anything to live for. If there isn't a heaven where you will get to see your family again then why wouldn't that person just end it? Your telling me that after losing your entire family you would want to get out and experience new things and better yourself lol? If there is a heaven you have a reason to remain alive and to live with zeal. Not the other way around. Heaven in a way is hope. Nothing after death is the exact opposite..hopeless.

I'm sure out there somewhere is a person who is holding on just because of religion. I mean if you've messed up your life terribly then at least you can still repent and go to heaven. Someone spoke of christians in prison earlier right? What hope do they have if they have life in prison? At least if they repent and change their evil ways they can still go to heaven right? They arent just done for like you would have them believe. I think your way of thinking only works for people who don't make a lot of mistakes lol. Or for people who are lucky enough to not have terrible things happen to them on accident. I think that in a way is kind of living in a fantasy world where people are free to just do as they please with no one ever doing anything bad because it would mess up anothers earth experience lol. I'm sorry if I sound a little sarcastic but that doesnt sound right to me. I just know I'd rather live in a world with an afterlife as opposed to one without an afterlife.

Comforting thought...  But it doesn't make it true.  You only illustrate that as cognizant beings, many will prefer the euphoria of delusion when confronted with "The Big Question"...  Because they fear the alternative (a.k.a. reality).  

The very thought of non-existence is so perplexing and unpleasant that for many it's best to reject the premise altogether.  In its place the weak-minded chase after beliefs that provide peace, comfort, purpose and eternal security.  In childhood this is known as "pretending".  Your statement "I just know I'd rather live in a world with an afterlife as opposed to one without an afterlife" says it all...  You are a "comfort seeker".  And you've been brought up in the perfect religion for people who desire to seek comfort... Christianity is the crowning achievement of religious convenience - offering a "one size fits all" salvation plan (no stupid OT laws to follow or praying five times a day) - and all you have to do is just believe.  

(pause for warm fuzzy)

Christianity allows followers to cherry-pick their sacred texts.  Just read the parts of the bible you like - who cares about the rest?  Who cares about things like mass rape, genocide, the murder of children or slavery anyway?

Look wesmel, This is a flaw in YOUR thinking process - you choose to suspend critical, rational thought in order to feel better about yourself and the world you live in.  Good for you.  But do not project your inability to cope with reality onto those who remain unconvinced of the existence of an all powerful, loving, compassionate, forgiving, god who bestows infinite punishment for finite crimes upon weaker beings merely because anonymous writers from the bronze age said so.

Religious belief offers you a welcome distraction from the cold, hard truth that personal annihilation is absolutely unavoidable and 100% non-survivable.  You NEED this belief, because it anesthetizes you for that final day.  Until then...  Keep drinking the kool-aid.

Craig

[Will]

To quote myself, via the Happily Free Thinkng Blog:
"Ignorance has never nor will ever be blissful. Ignorance brings with it immense fear and uncertainty, and anyone that's ever reflected on the human condition knows well that fear and uncertainty that come from ignorance always result in either sadness or anger. By supporting this kind of sentiment, you're enabling an empty understanding of life and death..." and are ultimately leading to a truer suffering.

I cannot imagine a worse suffering than not allowing closure on the death of a loved one out of a misguided belief that you'll see them again.

[Miss Anthrope]

Religious belief offers you a welcome distraction from the cold, hard truth that personal annihilation is absolutely unavoidable and 100% non-survivable.

I disgree with the last half of your statement. "The end" is certainly my working assumption in life, I don't live my life based on a belief in an afterlife. But scientifically, there is no way to prove that death is the end of consciousness. Bear in mind that many scientists argue that consciousness ITSELF doesn't "exist".
I would agree that there is no rational, factual basis for believing in an afterlife, but I could say the same for completely discounting it, and that's where philosophy can come in. The "heaven and hell" concept, yeah, pretty ridiculous, but if we expand our interpetation of concepts like life after death and reality in general, it actually becomes harder to decide on what the "truth" is.

An example: Some "top men" (yes, Indy fan ) beleive that before the end of the century we'll be able to create artifical consiousness and even achieve digital immortality. Someday we might have entire infitniely branching virutal universe simulations running on devices the size of a penny, populated with virtual, conscious "life". The implications of things like this are mind boggling, and bring up many philosophical questions. Is "now" REALLY 2009? Is this the "real" reality? Or let's go beyond "humans": Are you SURE you're not some entirely different being with a hyper-complex perception of time playing a virtual reality game called "Human Life", trademark of SquazzleFlub Corp, and when you die you'll leave the game and go back to work from your lunch break, "your" entire life being nothing but a memory to your "true self." In such a scenario, "you" die of course, but your "perception" lives on.

For me, an open mindedness about "life after death" is anyhting but comforting, it's actually very disturbing. I, personally, don't think an end of consciousness is even comes CLOSE to the potential horror of "immortality". Some neuroscientists believe that time and space are more accurately represented when we dream, so consider the possibility that "reality" as we consciously experience it is less "real" then "dream life". At first the idea that when we die we "wake up" permanently into an immaterial dreamstate seems like a "dream come true" (heh), but REALLY think about it. I have, and it chills me to the bone for the same
reason hallucinogenics never agreed with me.

Or consider Asimov's belief as stated in The Relativity of Wrong, he found nothing in science to disprove the existence of an afterlife, he simply didn't beleive in it because he didn't think that the human psyche could handle immortality. At the risk of sounding like I think I "know better", I have to wonder what he was thinking. If he didn't doubt that there could be some ethereal aspect of human consciousness that could survive death, than why did he limit himself to even including the "psyche", i.e. no brain - no psyche. Most people aren't psychologically equipped to handle intense lucid dreams naturally; ever notice how when you're dreaming you're not really "you" and the bizarre things that are going on seem perfectly natural? Why didn't he consider the possibility that the afterlife could be like a permanent disassosiative state, psyche-free, just "pure experience"? Once again, of course, "you" as defined by your memories, goals, preferences, etc,  don't really survive death, but your perception does (in such a scenario).

I think you have to be very careful when using terms like "cold, hard truth" and "100% non-surviveable". Nobody actually knows, and any good scientist will attest to this. We're still relatively stupid primates trying to bash open nuts with rudimentary tools. We've bearely scratched the surface of "reality".

EDIT: BTW, I apologize for my liberal use of quotation marks around many words. I use them especially with words like reality, existence, life, and other words which I feel are vague and potentially misleading when not used in a strictly defined context. Personally, I think words in general are a poor way to communicate already vague concepts. I often find that closed-mindedness seems to be the result of rigid interpretation of a word rather than a fully realized understanding of the concept in question. Even the word "afterlife" bugs me since time isn't a linear construct.

One more thing, it seems that what people who firmly believe in an afterlife have in common with those who firmly DON'T is a need to have a sense of certainty, to "make up their minds". I can understand this, I've been tempted myself. I live my life assuming that "this is it", it's the most rational way, but there always that nagging in the back of my mind reminding me that I JUST DON'T KNOW.

[SSY]

To be honest, I think I think DoG had it right, as far as I am concerned, brain function is required for consciousness, and we all know brain function stops after death.

[Miss Anthrope]

To be honest, I think I think DoG had it right, as far as I am concerned, brain function is required for consciousness, and we all know brain function stops after death.

From a materialist standpoint, yeah, I agree as well.However, I'm undecided and doubtful that we have enough inoformation and understanding to discount holistic and dualistic interpretations of reality. Plus, there's still debate about the relation of consciousness in a reality where time doesn't actually "flow". And from a technological standpoint, if it does indeed turn out to be possible to create virtual worlds with conscious inhabitants, we really will have to reconsider how necessary our brains really are. Theroretically, you could have a character model in a game with a relaistically rendered brain which actually exhibits activity as a real brain would, but the character's AI can be completely separate code, thus having nothing to do with the model of the brain, even if it appears to. Basically, we get a brainless version of the "brain in a vat" thought experiment.

[Wechtlein Uns]

I'd like to slap all the idiots whose eyes get all glassy and their mouths start drooling whenever someone brings up the term, "Outside the Universe". As if these idiots think it's humanities ultimate goal to escape this prison here and go somewhere "outside". FUCK YOU IDIOTS! (no, not you.) Chances are if we were to even attempt to go somewhere "outside the universe" it would be so radically different that we would not be able to survive.

In fact, Since we are material beings made "in the universe" how can we go outside the "universe" without simply extending the boundaries "of the universe". These idiots make me mad...  

[SSY]

To be honest, I think I think DoG had it right, as far as I am concerned, brain function is required for consciousness, and we all know brain function stops after death.

From a materialist standpoint, yeah, I agree as well.However, I'm undecided and doubtful that we have enough inoformation and understanding to discount holistic and dualistic interpretations of reality. Plus, there's still debate about the relation of consciousness in a reality where time doesn't actually "flow". And from a technological standpoint, if it does indeed turn out to be possible to create virtual worlds with conscious inhabitants, we really will have to reconsider how necessary our brains really are. Theroretically, you could have a character model in a game with a relaistically rendered brain which actually exhibits activity as a real brain would, but the character's AI can be completely separate code, thus having nothing to do with the model of the brain, even if it appears to. Basically, we get a brainless version of the "brain in a vat" thought experiment.

I don't really view our minds as anything other than a program running on some pretty exotic hardware. To me, a computer program has inputs, and then outputs, we are the same, inputs from senses, outputs as motor nuerone controls etc. This would place the inhabitants of a digital world on an equal level to our own level of sentience in my view.

In your example, why model a brain if it not being used to model the reactions of the creature? I would say the brain is the computer running the code, and the code is the mind/consciousness.