A Hard Question for Christians

[gwyn428]

There is evidence all around us that there is a God above.

Vedantists would say that there is a god or consciousness that is all-pervading and hidden within all living beings. Your opinion, that there is a god above, is just one arbitrary position based on your observance of our world. I'm curious as to what exactly it is that you consider to be evidence a god above... which by the way you actually mean "my prefered god."

First I'd like to try and prove my point that religion is not silly, fake, or made up. It's most definently real.

You yourself probably think that the religions of Muslims, Hare Krishnas, Thelemites, Wiccans, etc. are pretty silly, fake, and made up. These same people will assure you that their religions are definitely real, but you'll disagree no matter what.

This earth we live on is in the perfect spot in our solar system. It's far enough from the sun that we don't burn to death. However it isnt too far away from the sun either. If we were any further from the sun we would all freeze to death as well.

Ever seen a puddle of water in an opening that fits it so well? Must have been put there by god, right?

You see science does support the fact that there is a God after all. The solar system wasn't set up this perfect by accident or a coincidence. God had to have created our solar system.

Yeah.. and science also supports the fact that our planet is flat and resting upon invisible crimson pillars. Why is it that religious people call their beloved myths facts? Have you heard from any scientist or read from a scientific book or magazine that they have found factual or tangible evidence for the existence of... name your god? Long ago people did not know what causes thunder, so they had to say that a thunder god did it. No god created our solar system... people's gods of the gaps created the solar system.

Also the earth has it's own built in watering system. 97% of the earths water is located in it's oceans. Due to evaporation the salt is removed from the water and the water is dispersed all over the earth for vegetation, animals, and people. Everytime it rains your witnessing this watering system at work. It doesn't just happen by accident.

I have also noticed a few times that when sperm builds up in my testicles and isn't ever used for anything, my body naturally releases some of it at night while I am alseep. CLEARLY someone's god causes this to happen..   Psalms were written by King David and the Proverbs were written by Solomon. I'm sure they also never got to talk to each other.  

None of these people ever decided to get together to create the biggest scam of all time.

You probably believe that the Qur'an, Sunnah, Srimad Bhagavatam, and the Mahabharata were written by people who got together to create some big scams, right? I think they were, just as I also think the Bible is.

Guess what? People create big scams all the time! And why would Joseph Smith llliiieee?  

He gives me goals and a purpose.

Life itself gives me goals and a purpose.

Now feel free to rip me a new one lol.

I don't swing that way.  

[wesmel06]

Well I see I'm certainly going to be doing a lot of typing here today. I'll start with SSY and move on to gwyn428 a little bit later.

Sigh, i will have a crack at his, though the delusion seems deep rooted, this person has re-affirmed a belief in god becuase they seem to be unable to make decent life choices for themselves.

 There was a point when I didn't make the best choices in my life but those days are long gone. Christianity for me made everything pretty clear. Live my life not just for myself but for others. Treat others how I want to be treated. Why anyone would be upset that someone believes in christianity is a mystery to me. Christianity is one of the best religions as far as morals are concerned. It doesn't promote killing, stealing, drug abuse, selfishness, or anything else that is ruining our society today. Wether people believe God to be real or not it's pretty clear that christianity has nothing but good intentions. Not like other religions like Islam where killing others in the name of your faith is a great honor.

Here is something I really want you and everyone else to think over. When I'm asked if something is right or wrong I look at it like this. If everyone did it or was a believer in it would the world be a great place for all of us to live? As far as christianity is concerned the answer to that simple question would be yes. Other religions like Islam? They do things called honor killings. If a woman is raped they look at it like she has disgraced her family. Like she is unclean or something. She then has the choice of being killed or killing herself in the name of Islam in some type of terrorist attack like 9/11 for example. Is the answer the same for religions like Islam? The answer to that question of course is no.

Your argunment also verges on another fallacy. The atmosphere of the earth is transparent to EM waves in the range 400-700nm, you know these waves as light. It is much less transparent to microwaves and infrared ( for example, you cans ee a candle a mile away in the dark, but cannot feel it's heat until you within inches of it). To you, this would seem to suggest god made the atmosphere perfect for our viewing needs. What actually happened was the eye evolved to take advantage of light in the 400-700nm range. Any eye that evolved outside this range was useless, and was never passed on. Humans are adapted to the enviroment, not the other way round.

In my honest opinion it really doesn't matter if human beings adapt to the environment or if the environment was made for human beings. Whatever way you look at it our earth can support life. For whatever reason it works. I also said that our bodies had to have a creator. So the reason our bodies adapt are because God wanted them to when he created them? Either way you look at it God knew what he was doing.

Now I know science says a lot of things about the way the human body has evolved. Some say we came from apes long ago lol. However the question I pose to you is how can life just sort of happen from none life? If there isn't some type of creator then the fact that humanity is here is just one big accident to you? We are born, we live our lives, then we die. Then that's it for all of us? Thats the most depressing thing I've ever heard. There is no afterlife? We don't see our loved ones after we pass on? If that's the case then why not just go end it right now? It wouldn't matter right? The only punishment for our sins comes in this life? So I can go out, kill 200 people, then kill myself, and there won't be a hell waiting for me? What kind of message does that kind of thinking give the human race?

I believe Satan has many of you fooled. (tons more eye rolls I'm positive lol)If you don't believe in an afterlife or punishment for your sins then it's much easier to go out and do wrong isn't it? If Satan has convinced you that God does not exist then obviously you arent going to believe in him either are you? You have to admit that Satan is smart. I hate the bastard but he's a smart guy. I refuse to believe that we come from nothing when humanity was first created and that we go back to nothing when we die. If you have kids or someday have kids what are you going to teach them? Mommy is dead and you'll never see her again or mommy is dead but is in a better place in the afterlife? Life without an afterlife is just cruel. Life without an afterlife to me just doesn't make any sense.

BTW, If a candle (the sun) and a person (the earth) get too close too each other the person still gets burnt. You can't adjust when your on fire lol.

You simply assert our bodies are no accident. You are correct in this assetion, but for all the wrong reasons. Our bodies evolved through a multitude of tiny steps until we are as we are. Evolution is scientificaly supported, creationism is not.

I believe I just covered this in my last answer. If science by some strech would always be correct then I hope you enjoy the short time your alive. I hope you enjoy being around the people you love because when you die it's all over. Hell why not go out and kill someone? I mean if you can just kill yourself afterwords you can skip spending life in prison right? You can miss your punishment completely. I just hope for your sake that someday when you die that I ended up being wrong and that you ended up being right. From what I've read you've thought this out pretty well. It's better than people who look at me, get confused because they don't have any answer, and just turn to insults lol. In all seriousness though there are is no downside to being a christian other than giving up some things you might not like.

Say there is no God but at the same time I've remained a christian my whole life? Wouldn't you or I have lived a great moral life? Then by some chance if all this religion stuff just happens to be true then you and I would also have been prepared for the afterlife right? Honestly I believe neither of our opinions can really be 100% proved wrong or right. It all comes down to faith. It's better to be safe than sorry after all right?

Venerial disease has been around even longer than religon, despite many, many attempts to destroy it, maybe we should worship that instead? the authors of the bible were not in islation from the works of their predesescors, they did not all go away and write a gospel seperatley before combining them to make one whole. Also, the bible is CHOCK full of contradictions, positivley brimming with them.

lol at the venerial disease bit. Can I support what the bible says myself? Of course not. This is one of those places where faith comes in. You or I have no way of knowing exactly what happened because neither of us lived with these men. I could be right or you could be right. Both of our views on the Bible are nothing but opinion really. As far as contradictions are concerned? I've been taught that if the Bible shows contradictions that it has simply been misinterpreted. Your taking something the wrong way.

your view of humanity saddens me. The only thing keeping you from lying, cheating and killing is because the magic skydaddy said so?

My view of humanity saddens you? Thats just because it's true right? You want to talk about evolution? Lets look at how sin has evolved over time. How can there be any argument against the fact that sin has just gotten worse decade after decade? How can you argue the fact that the judgment of people hasn't gotten worse over time? Hell anything thats ever been created for the good of mankind we have found a way to abuse or misuse.

Birth control for example was created so that people might plan the birth of their baby at the right time. Not so some woman can go out and cheat on her husband without the baby bump later. I mean today if a woman got knocked up and the baby was black one would have to wonder how this came about when both parents are white right lol? She can just pop her pill daily and maybe never ever get caught sleeping around. Only human beings could take something like this and turn it into something negative.

I could give you plenty more examples but I'll cut it down to my main point. Not all human beings are like this. However when in the face of temptation a lot of people these days tend to not do the right thing. Look at our government if you need more proof. It will only get worse at time goes on as well I'm afraid. Hell some places it isnt even safe to walk alone at night without being robbed, killed, or raped. Maybe all three at once. Thats the way our world is. You talk like the fact that I believe in God is silly. However if your opinion is so down to earth and real then how can you say my opinion of humanity is saddening? How can you be so optimistic about a world that promotes sex, drinking, and drugs on every channel we watch on television today? Personally I think my opinion of humanity is right on the money.

We've been taught in the the bible that one day Jesus will have a second coming to defeat evil and give humanity 1000 years of peace right? However for that to happen the world has to be completely overrun by sin. How can you say that we arent well on our way?

I haven't forgotten about you gwyn428. I've run out of time at the moment but I promise that next time I get online I'll give my rebuttle to you as well.  God Bless.

[VanReal]

There was a point when I didn't make the best choices in my life but those days are long gone. Christianity for me made everything pretty clear. Live my life not just for myself but for others. Treat others how I want to be treated.

This is a good thing, and no one is condeming you for becoming a better person through Christianity.  However, many people live their lives thinking of others, working for other, volunteering, and following the idea of treating others how we would want to be treated without turning to a higher being for rules or answers.  You can be a good, careing, helpful and loving person without following a religion and certainly without being a Christian.  

If there isn't some type of creator then the fact that humanity is here is just one big accident to you? We are born, we live our lives, then we die. Then that's it for all of us? Thats the most depressing thing I've ever heard. There is no afterlife? We don't see our loved ones after we pass on? If that's the case then why not just go end it right now? It wouldn't matter right? The only punishment for our sins comes in this life? So I can go out, kill 200 people, then kill myself, and there won't be a hell waiting for me? What kind of message does that kind of thinking give the human race?

This is a huge reason for people to follow some kind of faith.  People need to think that something is going to happen after this life.  However, for many of us the simple knowing that this is all we get, this is the time we have to learn, laugh, love and enjoy is what drives us to be good people and spend the limited amount of time we have on this earth doing good.  This is it, this is all we get, and knowing that doesn't make me think of killing myself or killing someone else, it makes me work hard at being positive, raising a caring son, and spending time with my family here and now.  I don't like to waste what time I do have, and certainly don't want to do anything to cause trouble or cause anyone else to waste theirs.  

I believe Satan has many of you fooled. (tons more eye rolls I'm positive lol)If you don't believe in an afterlife or punishment for your sins then it's much easier to go out and do wrong isn't it? If Satan has convinced you that God does not exist then obviously you arent going to believe in him either are you? You have to admit that Satan is smart. I hate the bastard but he's a smart guy. I refuse to believe that we come from nothing when humanity was first created and that we go back to nothing when we die. If you have kids or someday have kids what are you going to teach them? Mommy is dead and you'll never see her again or mommy is dead but is in a better place in the afterlife? Life without an afterlife is just cruel. Life without an afterlife to me just doesn't make any sense.

That's corect.  There is no satan.  And we tell our children to hold the memory of their mother and know they were loved.  We also teach them to be respectful now, to enjoy the time they have together, and to make every minute count.  Their mother is not in pain, not suffering, not burning in hell, and not floating around waiting to see her/him again.  

I believe I just covered this in my last answer. If science by some strech would always be correct then I hope you enjoy the short time your alive. I hope you enjoy being around the people you love because when you die it's all over. Hell why not go out and kill someone? I mean if you can just kill yourself afterwords you can skip spending life in prison right? You can miss your punishment completely.

So, no killers, murderers, sadists, or criminals in prison are Christian?  None were Christian when they committed their crimes?  Hmmm, are the molesting Priests not Christian? Yikes, 94% of the population is religious and believes in God, and the prison population is massive...prisons are full of non-believers, but I guess that's okay because they can repent and all is well again.

[SSY]

Well I see I'm certainly going to be doing a lot of typing here today. I'll start with SSY and move on to gwyn428 a little bit later.

 There was a point when I didn't make the best choices in my life but those days are long gone. Christianity for me made everything pretty clear. Live my life not just for myself but for others. Treat others how I want to be treated. Why anyone would be upset that someone believes in christianity is a mystery to me. Christianity is one of the best religions as far as morals are concerned. It doesn't promote killing, stealing, drug abuse, selfishness, or anything else that is ruining our society today. Wether people believe God to be real or not it's pretty clear that christianity has nothing but good intentions. Not like other religions like Islam where killing others in the name of your faith is a great honor.

No, christianity is bankrupt as far as morals is concerned. The only reason yo are nice people is to secure your place in heaven, I am nice to people because of empathy and mutual understanding. Christianity has also commited barbaric acts, like the crusades, the spanish inquisition etc. Christianities intention is to control you and make you do as it says while coverting others.

Here is something I really want you and everyone else to think over. When I'm asked if something is right or wrong I look at it like this. If everyone did it or was a believer in it would the world be a great place for all of us to live? As far as christianity is concerned the answer to that simple question would be yes. Other religions like Islam? They do things called honor killings. If a woman is raped they look at it like she has disgraced her family. Like she is unclean or something. She then has the choice of being killed or killing herself in the name of Islam in some type of terrorist attack like 9/11 for example. Is the answer the same for religions like Islam? The answer to that question of course is no.

The catagorical imperative is an old idea, not in any way exlcusive or dependant on christianity. Your statement that everyone would be happy if only they were christian is almost too wrong to even address, suffice to say, thinking like that led has led to many of the worst atrocities in human history. I agree, Islam is a pretty sucky religon, however, you worship the same god, have the same prophets etc. Just becuase another religon is pretty bad, does not make your religion correct.

In my honest opinion it really doesn't matter if human beings adapt to the environment or if the environment was made for human beings. Whatever way you look at it our earth can support life. For whatever reason it works. I also said that our bodies had to have a creator. So the reason our bodies adapt are because God wanted them to when he created them? Either way you look at it God knew what he was doing.

So now your argument changes. The reason it works is evolution, bodies that did not fit in the enviroment died, so we adapted to it. No god is needed in this process.

Now I know science says a lot of things about the way the human body has evolved. Some say we came from apes long ago lol. However the question I pose to you is how can life just sort of happen from none life? If there isn't some type of creator then the fact that humanity is here is just one big accident to you? We are born, we live our lives, then we die. Then that's it for all of us? Thats the most depressing thing I've ever heard. There is no afterlife? We don't see our loved ones after we pass on? If that's the case then why not just go end it right now? It wouldn't matter right? The only punishment for our sins comes in this life? So I can go out, kill 200 people, then kill myself, and there won't be a hell waiting for me? What kind of message does that kind of thinking give the human race?

Abiogenesis is still a mystery to modern science, though we are fast making process ( see the science forum for details ). Science is happy to say we dont know YET. Making up some arbitary explanation to it is really no explanation at all. If a scientist turned around and said a gaint unicorn created the first cell, would that be a satisfactory answer? No? Well that is what Christianity says, there is as much evidence for each of those processes.

Just becuase you want somehting to be true, does not make it true. I really, really want to be married to Angelina Jolie, I can keep hoping it will happen, but odds are, its not going to happen. Just becuase you want there to be an afterlife, does not mean there will be an afterlife. Th reason i dont go on a killing spree and then kill myself is becuase I have things I still want to do. I have a nice beef joint in the fridge, killing myself would preclude me from cooking it tommorrow. I also realise that killing others may stop them eating their own delicious food tommorrow, so i refrain in order not to hurt them. Aside from both of those reason, why would I want to kill people anyway? Becuase life is finite, it sends the mesage to cherish every second you have, better yourself, learn things, experience the world, create and receive as much love as possible.

I believe Satan has many of you fooled. (tons more eye rolls I'm positive lol)If you don't believe in an afterlife or punishment for your sins then it's much easier to go out and do wrong isn't it? If Satan has convinced you that God does not exist then obviously you arent going to believe in him either are you? You have to admit that Satan is smart. I hate the bastard but he's a smart guy. I refuse to believe that we come from nothing when humanity was first created and that we go back to nothing when we die. If you have kids or someday have kids what are you going to teach them? Mommy is dead and you'll never see her again or mommy is dead but is in a better place in the afterlife? Life without an afterlife is just cruel. Life without an afterlife to me just doesn't make any sense.

what you beleive is irrelavent if you do not have evidence for it. As for my future wife dieing, I will teach my kids to cherish ehr memory, they will know they were loved, and it will highlight to them just how precious life really is.

BTW, If a candle (the sun) and a person (the earth) get too close too each other the person still gets burnt. You can't adjust when your on fire lol.

Aside from massivley missing the point of that example, you also ignored my previous point. If the earth was a s close to the sun as mercury, we would not be around to wonder why the earth is so well placed, the question presupposes the answer.

I believe I just covered this in my last answer. If science by some strech would always be correct then I hope you enjoy the short time your alive. I hope you enjoy being around the people you love because when you die it's all over. Hell why not go out and kill someone? I mean if you can just kill yourself afterwords you can skip spending life in prison right? You can miss your punishment completely. I just hope for your sake that someday when you die that I ended up being wrong and that you ended up being right. From what I've read you've thought this out pretty well. It's better than people who look at me, get confused because they don't have any answer, and just turn to insults lol. In all seriousness though there are is no downside to being a christian other than giving up some things you might not like.

Being a christian looks pretty awful to me. you are blinkered, you have to experience the world through a very narrow god tinted window, you have to abide by all these crazy laws ( no work on a sundaay? what? I need to fix my lawnmower this weekend ), you can never experience the full joy of human existance.

Say there is no God but at the same time I've remained a christian my whole life? Wouldn't you or I have lived a great moral life? Then by some chance if all this religion stuff just happens to be true then you and I would also have been prepared for the afterlife right? Honestly I believe neither of our opinions can really be 100% proved wrong or right. It all comes down to faith. It's better to be safe than sorry after all right?

Pascals wager is an awful fallacy. Faith is perhaps the stupidest justification for anything. Having faith does not make something real, it makes you deluded.

lol at the venerial disease bit. Can I support what the bible says myself? Of course not. This is one of those places where faith comes in. You or I have no way of knowing exactly what happened because neither of us lived with these men. I could be right or you could be right. Both of our views on the Bible are nothing but opinion really. As far as contradictions are concerned? I've been taught that if the Bible shows contradictions that it has simply been misinterpreted. Your taking something the wrong way.

Faith, again. Your right, we cant for sure know how they wrote the bible, this is why I dont base belief on random guesswork about whether or not they read each other's work.

My view of humanity saddens you? Thats just because it's true right? You want to talk about evolution? Lets look at how sin has evolved over time. How can there be any argument against the fact that sin has just gotten worse decade after decade? How can you argue the fact that the judgment of people hasn't gotten worse over time? Hell anything thats ever been created for the good of mankind we have found a way to abuse or misuse.

No, it saddens me, becuase if your view of humanity was correct, it would preclude pretty much everyone from being happy. Actually, I could say we now live in the msot enlightened times of our history. We have schooling, policing and healthcare available to all. We live in a society were people have better quality of life than any imagined possible just a hundred years ago.

Birth control for example was created so that people might plan the birth of their baby at the right time. Not so some woman can go out and cheat on her husband without the baby bump later. I mean today if a woman got knocked up and the baby was black one would have to wonder how this came about when both parents are white right lol? She can just pop her pill daily and maybe never ever get caught sleeping around. Only human beings could take something like this and turn it into something negative.

What? some people cheat on their spouse, so god must exist? run that by me again.

I could give you plenty more examples but I'll cut it down to my main point. Not all human beings are like this. However when in the face of temptation a lot of people these days tend to not do the right thing. Look at our government if you need more proof. It will only get worse at time goes on as well I'm afraid. Hell some places it isnt even safe to walk alone at night without being robbed, killed, or raped. Maybe all three at once. Thats the way our world is. You talk like the fact that I believe in God is silly. However if your opinion is so down to earth and real then how can you say my opinion of humanity is saddening? How can you be so optimistic about a world that promotes sex, drinking, and drugs on every channel we watch on television today? Personally I think my opinion of humanity is right on the money.

I am optimistic becuase while a few people indulge in crime, the vast majority do not, as a unified group of people we have the power to move forwards and better ourselves and our world. Even if the world was awful, why is that a proof for god? i think you will find your preacher emphasises these elemtns in order to give you someone to look down on and feel holy.

[curiosityandthecat]

This doesn't work when talking to atheists:



I understand, wesmel06, that you feel you can do a lot of good by helping us godless heathens find Christ. That maybe, just maybe, if you tell us how you came to god that maybe, just maybe, we'll see the errors of our ways. So, just to save you some time and effort, here's a little list taken from our "For theists: what is an atheist?" thread:

• An atheist is not someone who hates god.
• An atheist is not a devil worshiper.
• An atheist is not rebelling against religion or god.
• An atheist is not under the control of some devil.
• An atheist is not something that doesn’t exist.
• An atheist is, in general, not immoral.
• An atheist is not someone who believes in nothing.

You're making a very common, very easy mistake for the faithful to make: you begin with the desired result(God), and re-work the method to fit (reality).

We are born, we live our lives, then we die. Then that's it for all of us? Thats the most depressing thing I've ever heard. There is no afterlife? We don't see our loved ones after we pass on? If that's the case then why not just go end it right now?

You see it as depressing. We see it as a mandate to live fulfilling, happy, exciting, loving lives while we can. The entire concept of a Christian afterlife is ludicrous, to start. Heaven, as Christians see it, would be the most mind-numblingly boring existence the human mind can fathom. If you would like elaboration on that, I'll provide it. However, if you'd like to end it all right now, there's really nothing stopping you. Except the Bible.

Boy, that's tricky.

[Kylyssa]

Suffering In The World
Why would God allow suffering in the world? Wy does God let bad things happen to all of us? It's called free will. If someone dies in a car accident after getting hit by a drunk driver then it isn't that God couldn't stop it. It's just that it would be a violation of free will if God prevented it from happening. He can't take your beer away and say no without breaking your promise of free will now can he? Bad things happen in the world because we don't listen to God. It's just that simple really. Murder, rape, drugs, and etc God tells us not to do. We do it anyway though. We can't blame God for these things. Blame ourselves!

So, which human actions cause lightning strikes, hurricanes, tornadoes, and earthquakes?  Free will?

[Ihateyoumike]

Interesting Topic
I'm a christian so of course I'm going to have to disagree with what everyone is saying about religion being false or silly. There is evidence all around us that there is a God above. I'll get to your question a bit later. First I'd like to try and prove my point that religion is not silly, fake, or made up. It's most definently real. (Got some eye rolls Im sure lol)

Alright, who let messenger have a second account?  :nerd:[/quote]

Not me!

Sigh, i will have a crack at his,

I won't. I'll just end up like this guy ----->

[toadhall]

Give the poor guy some room, he's giving a valuable insight into Christian thinking. wesmel06, thanks for taking the time to post all this - I'll put down my thoughts and comments in a few hours because I have to leave shortly. Just leaving a thank-you for now.  

[wesmel06]

Give the poor guy some room, he's giving a valuable insight into Christian thinking. wesmel06, thanks for taking the time to post all this - I'll put down my thoughts and comments in a few hours because I have to leave shortly. Just leaving a thank-you for now.  

Yeah.. and science also supports the fact that our planet is flat and resting upon invisible crimson pillars. Why is it that religious people call their beloved myths facts? Have you heard from any scientist or read from a scientific book or magazine that they have found factual or tangible evidence for the existence of... name your god? Long ago people did not know what causes thunder, so they had to say that a thunder god did it. No god created our solar system... people's gods of the gaps created the solar system.

Science has an explanation for everything. It's just that we have our science and God has his science. Some theories of science have been proven correct while others have been proven wrong. Theories like the earth being flat was our science. Human beings came up with that idea and it was proven false. We make mistakes. God however never makes mistakes. When I tell you that the distance from our sun matters you would have to agree right?  When I tell you that only the earth has been proven to support human life you would have to agree right? That is God's science at work. He knows what he is doing and has a full understanding of all things. Human beings on the other hand do not have an understanding of all things. We havent even begun to get close to knowing everything there is to know in the field of science. So how can you say that the scientific theories we come up with on earth and the scientific theories God has used are the exact same thing? Any scientific theory that has failed human beings have cooked up. The earth needing sunlight to grow plants and vegatation can never be proved wrong. You all seem to be big fans of luck right? Who is to say that our scientific discoveries arent just luck? We just happened to get it right. Think about it.

I have also noticed a few times that when sperm builds up in my testicles and isn't ever used for anything, my body naturally releases some of it at night while I am alseep. CLEARLY someone's god causes this to happen..

Clearly your body is going through changes. This is called a wet dream or night wettings..lol. You younger teen boys have those from time to time. You see you have something called a scrotum which is the sack that hangs underneath your penis. These are called testicles. You kids call them nuts or balls. Gonads maybe? I don't know what you prefer. They produce testosterone and sperm. If you look closely one testicle or "ball" is slightly lower than the other. This is to prevent you from crushing your testicles together between your legs as you walk. These "balls" contain sperm as you have discovered. Once you enter puberty your balls constantly produce this liquid. The rate of production is strongly influenced by how often and how strongly you are aroused. As the sperm bulds up you will find yourself more easily stimulated. The mildest sexual thought or touch will trigger an erection. The urge for sexual release becomes stronger. Your body releases the pressure by ejaculating semen. The reason your body releases this fluid at night is because the body can only hold a certain amount of sperm at a time. As your body keeps producing sperm you need a place for it to go right? That explains why your pajamas are wet when you wake in the morning. Science explains this perfectly well. Our body was made perfectly. You have a prostate gland that helps to block off your urinary duct while your erect. It also helps to keep your ejaculatory duct closed while your using the restroom. It's crazy how everything about the human body works so well.

Now you kids had better get ready because if your having wet dreams your going to start having something called an erection next. This is when your penis gets hard. You kids sometimes call this your "thing" or "ding dong"...or just "dong". lol sorry I'm having a little too much fun with this one. I'd better just end it already. God created our bodies to work perfectly in every way. From our brains all the way down to...well you know. Your body does things for a reason. We didn't just come from nothing.

Have you even looked at anything else on the bigger picture? Wisdom teeth, poor sinus drainage, back pain, tail bone, etc. are proof of how imperfect our bodies are and how natural selection cleverly points to the fact of evolution. You'd probably just pull the "original sin card" to justify our imperfect bodies.

First of all we arent born with back pain. It comes from years of improper lifting and with age it just gets worn out from years of hard work. The tailbone? It isnt entirely useless. It's an important attachment for various muscles, tendons and ligaments. It's also for the attachment of a group of muscles important for many functions of the pelvic floor. Just do an internet search if you don't believe me. I'm no genious so I can't name every single one of them but I believe I've still made my point. Wisdom teeth? I'm really not sure. I've had mine in for years and they haven't been a problem for me yet. Poor sinus drainage? It occurs when we get sick and there are many ways to clear that problem right up. Why do we get sick? A lack of things our bodies need. Sometimes it's a lack of a certain type of vitamin. I mean if all you ever eat is candy and all you ever drink is soda then you are just asking for trouble.

Our bodies have been created perfectly but still need the right nutrients to survive and stay healthy. God has also provided us with these things. Natural cures have actually been proven to work better than medicine a doctor can give you. They cost less too. The health industry is one of the biggest scams out there. They overcharge us for medicine that can actually cause our bodies to develop other problems. Natural cures however don't have these side effects. Almost anything wrong with the body can be explained. It's just important that everyone is led in the right direction and is getting the correct information.

Snowflakes look complex too, but there isn't a designer; just temperature and humidity.

I believe we already talked about science earlier.

So this means then that Hinduism is definitely true? Aum Namah Shivaya!

I've covered Hinduism and it's flaws earlier as well.

You probably believe that the Qur'an, Sunnah, Srimad Bhagavatam, and the Mahabharata were written by people who got together to create some big scams, right? I think they were, just as I also think the Bible is.

Guess what? People create big scams all the time! And why would Joseph Smith llliiieee?  

If christianity is true then that means Satan  must exist. If Satan exists then he needs ways to draw people away from christianity. False religions are made for this purpose. Scams are made all the time. However a scam usually doesn't benefit the person being tricked. Christianity teaches people to live good moral lives. Unlike other religions as I mentioned a little ways up this page. I know churches that donate money to causes all the time. Sure some people act like christians to make money which they dont use for good. However not all churches or church attending people are criminals looking to rip you off.

Matthew 27:5 and Acts 1:18 have two different stories of how Judas died. Acts 1:1-12 and Luke 24:50-53 have two different locations of where Christ ascended into the sky. So far these are two contradictions.

As far as the Bible's impossibility of being fake...

Matthew 1:23 is supposed to be proof that Jesus was predicted in the Old Testament, right? Wrong. The passage of Isaiah 7:14 in its original Hebrew text says that a young woman, not a virgin, shall give birth to a child named Immanuel. The word for young woman, Almah, was used instead of the word for virgin which is Betulah. Other passages in the Old Testament where virgins are mentioned always use Betulah. There is no prophecy of a virgin birth. Also, consider the context of Isaiah 7:14; the sign was for King Ahaz, who died over 200 years before Jesus came around. So how would he had been able to see Jesus... whom was not even named Immanuel?

My observance is that the Bible is flawed just like all other sacred texts.

The Bible has no contradictions. (You start laughing like..can you believe this guy lol) You have misunderstood what you were reading. Matthew 27:5 does say he hung himself. However Acts 1:18 does not disagree with that. Acts 1:18 describes what happened after Judas had hung himself. He fell headlong which means a hanging. His body began to decay as it hung from the rope. Eventually his corpse fell and “burst asunder” when it hit the ground. That means that he literally burst apart. You see what I'm trying to say? The Bible is a hard book to read for a man of any age. I once was so confused about reading The Bible because not all of it can be taken literally.  Some of it is metaphorical. 2000 years ago when Jesus walked the earth he even spoke to the people in parables when was teaching them something. You really have to think about what a certain book is saying.

You have just expressed that God is not omnipotent or all-powerful. So, why continue your belief in something that is not perfect? It does not make sense to me that an omnipotent god would refuse to prevent sin even though he hates it with a passion.

God does hate sin yet he allows it for us. When we experience something in life we are meant to learn from it. How are people suppose to learn that sin is bad if they don't experience sin first hand? If your young and your friend (satans tool to trick you) tells you that drinking alcohol is sooo awesome you might decide to use it. Your parents (God) tells you that alcohol won't do anything for you but get you into trouble. You have two roads to go. You can choose sin and try the alcohol or you can listen to God and stay away from it. You think about it and decide to give it a try. Years later after your second divorce related to alcohol abuse you conclude that your parents (God) was correct. Your parents didnt like you drinking but when you become a certain age they cant stop you. If they take it away you just want it more. God wants you to experience sin and learn from it for yourself. If someone just tells you something you can't 100% be sure that they are correct. Your parents (God) when you quit drinking are happy for you and still love you despite your bad decision.

I think thats a perfect example of how God warns his children of Satan and sin. When people try it for themselves out of curiousity, peer pressure, or whatever Satans tool might be, they eventually see the darkside to it. They repent and admit how much of a mistakes they have made. God loved you before your problem and still loves you after.

Why is it that Christians think that the human race was given the Ten Commandments? It was given to the people Israel and it only concerned them. No where in your New Testament does it say that Christians must follow the Ten Commandments. Observance of the Shabbat Day occurs from Friday evening to Saturday evening and you cannot work or kindle a flame. Do Christians carefully observe this? Of course not. The Ten Commandments by the way were an introduction to 600+ more commandments. Some of them say that men must wear white/blue tassels on the four corners of their garments and that you must recite parts of the Torah morning and evening. If you are going to emphasize the Ten Commandments then you must also include the 600+ more commandments.

It's 613 commandments to be exact. Some of these however don't apply to us. Some are for men and some are for women. Hell some are for just kings or priests. Some of them only apply in Isreal or when the temple (which isnt there at the current time) is functioning. If some of these are impossible to fufill then how can we keep all of them? The 10 Commandments however are most commonly known because they always apply. There is no situation, job title, or status that voids any of the special 10. I believe though that after the messiah (Jesus Christ in his second coming) returns that all of those commandments will go back into effect though. Thats just my opinion anyway.

You seem to think that every single human being is incredibly evil.

To say that we didn't create moral values and that godidit is like saying that we did not come up with the traffic light system and so goddidit. Reason tells me that the silver rule and the golden rule are good morals to live by.

I don't think that every human being is incredibly evil. I think that every human being has the ability to do incedibly evil things. Not all human beings kill or cheat on their mates. However these days it's more and more common. Back in the earlier 1900s woman were looked down on for not getting married after they found out they were pregnant. Now? Having kids outside of marriage is perfectly normal and a lot more frequent.

There has been more death in the last 100 years of earths history than any other century on earth. Between world wars and killing on the streets there are too many deaths to count. How can you say society isnt getting worse? How bad will it be the next 100 years? To say that the world will never end means never ending wars. It means never ending death. The only way humanity can escape these things is Jesus Chris coming back. It's a story without a happy ending to think that our world is not controlled by spiritual forces. Not everyone in the world today is evil but I'd hate to see us 200 years from now.  

What is so wrong with being Altruistic and at the same time enjoying sex and good drinks?

lol I'm going to use my get out of commenting free card on this one.

Or would it just be the will of God? The NT says that God preordained some people to become saved.

Basically if you want to go to heaven then your free to accept jesus as your savior. No one was ever picked up and carried into heaven kicking and screaming that they didn't want to go after all lol. You make the choice. It's as simple as it sounds.

I have heard converts to Islam and Vaishnavism say this.

You have to test the spirits. Make sure God is calling you. Not Satan.

I saw an interview where a new convert to Islam claimed that the New Testament led him to the Qur'an.

Again Satan is a tricky guy. I don't know the details of his conversion so I really can't comment much on this. Oh well. Thats just less typing for me.

Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Baha'i, Wicca, and all other religions do not both me in any quantity of being bothersome. As far as a god calling me, well, I could of swore that I heard J.R. "Bob" Dobbs calling me to send him $30 in order to get right with him before July 5, 1998 arrives.  

God said that there would be false prophets. You just happened to run across one of them. Like I said people are capable of evil things. This man is one of them. Not all christians are out to steal your money for themselves though you know.

I don't swing that way.

Thats not what I heard... lol

I'll reply to the rest of you when I get more time.

[Ihateyoumike]

This is a very good point. Your absolutely correct when you say that all of these different religions THINK that they are the one true religion. My religion (Christianity) and those other religions have our beliefs and we are always going to stick to them. However there is a difference in the way that these religions will try and deal with that fact. I for example can tell you why you should become a christian. I could give you the testimonies of 100 people that think they have felt God's love/power. However those will just be labeled as coincidences or just plain luck to many of you. I'm not going to go out and fly a plain into a building just because you don't believe me though. I'm not going to torture or kill you because you won't accept my ways of thinking. Other religions arent so kind to non believers.

Wow. You turned me off to your "point" you were trying to make entirely too quickly. You may not be the type of person who will go out and forcefully try to gain believers to your religion. But to say that your religion is free from that is completely laughable. I guess you've never heard of the crusades, or the spanish inquisition. Sure, you could give testimony of 100 people that have felt your god's "love/power." I give you testimony of the estimated 1 billion people (yes, that's approximately 1/6th of the entire world) who are muslim. Do you truly think that every one of them is going to "fly a plain" (lol) into a building because I don't believe in their god? Obviously, you (a) have no concept of truly how many people there are out there, (b) don't understand or choose to ignore the history of your very-very-far-from-perfect religion, and (c) are ignorant.

I suggest you read up on the history of your religion, and get some facts, before you start spouting off this nonsense on this board. Better yet, go read the posts by messenger, and all the rebuttals to his "arguments" and realize that you're throwing out the exact same "arguments" that he was. You'll waste alot less of your time and our time in the process.

[Miss Anthrope]

Wow, this thread has been pretty active since I last checked it. I would have had a lot to say, but others like gywn and SSY and Ihateyoumike (once again) have covered that.

Wesel106, I'm going to hold myself back from trying to point out how many things are wrong with Christianity, but I think you need to decide whether you hold onto your beliefs becasue you think they're scientifically valid or because you WANT to believe them. You went on about seeing our loved ones in an afterlife and the need for people to be punished/rewarded after death, as if what you/we desire must be so. Yeah, I think the idea that when we die that's it is a bit depressing, but 1)that's a conscious thought, if I'm dead and experience nothing than I can't be depressed about it and 2)the world/universe obviously doesn't operate on the basis of what we want.

You have your beliefs and you hold them as sacred and true, fine, but it's always a bad idea to argue from an emotional perspective. It doesn't really matter what a finite existence says about the human race, and in general the human race says far more negative things about itself in the time it's existed. I'm sure many people would be comforted to know that Hitler is being raped by fire right now, that doesn't mean he is.

And really, what could ANYBODY do within even a long (100+ year) lifespan that warrants suffering for ETERNITY. That's one of my biggest qualms with your religion, that Christians will accept that their own child might make some wrong decisions and burn in hell for eternity. Like, "Oh, I was trying to tell my child that [INSERT RANDOM FACT/THEORY], and he didn't believe me, so I locked him in the oven on full blast, and I'm never letting him out." "Oh that amkes perfect sense, Tom, how dare he not beleive you?"  That's perfectly acceptable, yet a finite existence isn't?

One last thing, Wesel106, the way you explained the contradictions in the Bible is SUCH a cop-out.For instance, it NEVER says anything about Judas rotting and falling from his noose, and besides that it says he fell HEADLONG, which doesn't make any sense if he was hanging from a noose. And how could he have purchased a field with the reward for his wickedness if he immediately flung the silver and hung himself? You claim people don't read the Bible correctly, well the only way to do so by my estimation is to completely suspend one's disbelief and accept multiple realities.

OK, I am going to point out a bunch of things that are wrong with your religion, it's really nagging at me that you candy coat the whole thing.

1)God commanded that uncircumsized children be cut off from society, presumably abandoned to die, for breaking his covenant.
2)God commanded that anyone who worked on the Sabbath, even just to kindle a fire, be put to death.
3)God commanded that homosexuals be killed.
4)Handicapped people were not allowed to approach an alter becasue they would "profane it".
5)Despite scriptures that claim God is not a jealous God, he would get jealous and kill you for worshipping another god.
6)God commanded that those with different religious beliefs be killed.
7)God "aborted" quite a few innocent children just to teach their parents a lesson.

OK, that's enough, I could go on forever and ultimately it won't make a difference. I'm gonna go watch House, MD.

[gwyn428]

This is a very good point. Your absolutely correct when you say that all of these different religions THINK that they are the one true religion.

And I feel the same way about your religion too. Seriously, there is no one true religion. The concept seems to pathetic.

I for example can tell you why you should become a christian. I could give you the testimonies of 100 people that think they have felt God's love/power. However those will just be labeled as coincidences or just plain luck to many of you. I'm not going to go out and fly a plain into a building just because you don't believe me though. I'm not going to torture or kill you because you won't accept my ways of thinking. Other religions arent so kind to non believers.

I'll tell you right now that you have no need to try to convince me to become a Christian. The concept of God is illogical, contradictory, and nonsensical. Not to mention that I am not prepared to give up Reason, the facts I know, and neither am I interested in feeling guilty about myself looking at women and undressing them with my eyes.

There are testimonies of people feeling the so called love and the so called power of many gods. It's all in their heads. Seriously, I could of sworn that I felt the power of the Invisible Pink Unicorn until I realized she's a product of humankind, just like all gods are.

Your religion, by the way, doesn't have a good history of kindness to nonbelievers.

Islam as I already highlighted will do pretty well anything to convert you to their religion. First they'll preach to you why you should join them. They'll tell you about the Prophet Muhammad and The Quran. If you don't want to listen they'll torture you. If that isnt enough they'll just kill you. If there is a large group opposing Islam they'll go off on suicide missions trying to cripple those forces that might oppose them. Things I've read about what islamic nations do to people who will not conform are horrible.

Christianity had this in common for a while.

Hinduism is the worlds third largest religion behind Christianity & Islam. Hinduism isn't known for it's terrorist attacks but there is a down side. The religion doesn't have a specific theological system or even a single system of morality. It consists of thousands of different religious groups (including the Hare Krishnas) who really don't agree with one another. How can this be the one true religion if there isn't even a single set of beliefs? Have you ever read about The Caste System? It's basically the split up of everyone into a couple of different groups. You have Brahmins which are basically priests and teachers. You have Kshatriyas who are the military that rules over everyone. Vaishyas are people like farmers & merchants. Sudras are the peasants. They serve the other groups. Lastly you have The Dalit. They are considered outcasts.They arent even considered a part of the system. This system causes there to be a lot of discrimination. Hell some Hindu people have even converted to christianity and other religions just to escape this type of system. Due to anger within the religion murder has been known to occur. Some religion huh?

"Hinduism" by the way was a term made up by the British Raj. Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Shaktism, Smartism, and other religions do not reveal that Hinduism is a mess; they just reveal that India has a rich history of religion. The Caste System is nowhere found in any of the sacred texts of the Hindu religions. So you can't equate poor social ideas with religion. Trust me, I probably know more about Indian religion than you do; I used to be a follower of Vaishnavism, I was in association with a guru, and I read alot of literature.

Christianity has way too many denominations, people cannot agree with each other over many things, and it has a history of inhumane reign. Some religion huh?

If the only religion in the world was christianity would the world be a good place to live? Yes! How about Islam or Hinduism? No. Now you might rationalize this like christianity is just the best of many false religions but I disagree. In christianity we are taught to be the one true religion. All other religions are just an attempt from Satan to pull us away from our lord and savior Jesus Christ. Your thoughts?

Christianity would not guarantee world peace. Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, and Hindus have said the same thing you just said.

Islam, Judaism, Zoroastrianism, and all other "true religions" claim that a cosmic boogey man invents false religions to pull people away from their prefered god.

Come on.. you have to do better than that.

While that comment is amusing to me it's completely different from what I'm saying. Is the survival of humanity at stake because water falls into an opening or creates a puddle? No. If the earth was hugging the sun would humanity have a problem? Absolutely lol. I believe God is more concerned with our overall survival compared to where some water lands after it rains or if water fits perfectly into the crack in the pavement. Does God put it there? I'm not at liberty to say. I'm not God. Maybe if you convert someday you can ask him?  :|

It's just that we have our science and God has his science.

Science is used for understanding how things in our natural world work. God has his science too? Wow.. he must not understand the natural world. Why worship him?  

God never makes mistakes? Wow.. did you skip that story in Genesis about Noah?

So how can you say that the scientific theories we come up with on earth and the scientific theories God has used are the exact same thing?

I never even said that..  

Clearly your body is going through changes. This is called a wet dream or night wettings..lol. You younger teen boys have those from time to time.

I am 21 years of age.  :raised:

It's 613 commandments to be exact.

That's what the Rabbinical Jews claim. Qara'im, or scripture reading Jews, say that it is not 613 commandments.

The 10 Commandments however are most commonly known because they always apply. There is no situation, job title, or status that voids any of the special 10. I believe though that after the messiah (Jesus Christ in his second coming) returns that all of those commandments will go back into effect though. Thats just my opinion anyway.

Most jobs and statuses do not demand that we not worship graven images and not work from Friday-Saturday evening and not to kindle a flame. You apparently don't know anything, do you?

By the way, the NT does not command you to take the Ten Commandments to heart. Jesus taught two special commandments. Read your bibble.

Back in the earlier 1900s woman were looked down on for not getting married after they found out they were pregnant. Now? Having kids outside of marriage is perfectly normal and a lot more frequent.

I take it you believe in traditonal marriage?  

Watch Penn & Teller's episode of Bullshit! about the traditional family. You will learn alot.

Basically if you want to go to heaven then your free to accept jesus as your savior. No one was ever picked up and carried into heaven kicking and screaming that they didn't want to go after all lol. You make the choice. It's as simple as it sounds.

Hogwash!

Read Ephesians 1:4-5 and Romans 9:15-16

Look for the Invisible Pink Unicorn in your heart. <3

[curiosityandthecat]

[SSY]

The bible is full of contradictions and is also hilarious

1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.  
1:7 And God made the firmament and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.  
1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.  
 So there is a giant bal of water surrounding the earth?

7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.  
7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.  
7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
7:14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
   (7:13-14) All of the animals boarded the ark "in the selfsame day." [more]
 
7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.  

God made it rain by letting tis water through heaven? There were 2 of EVERY creature in the ark?

from jonah

1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

what?


from matthew

13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:  (13:31-32) "The least of all seeds"
Jesus is incorrect when he says that the mustard seed is the smallest seed. (The epiphytic orchids have the smallest seeds.) And since there are no trees in the mustard family, mustard seeds do not grow into trees large enough to support bird nests.  
13:32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.  


From corrinthians

15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

Wow, that makes sense.

Hebrews says  

1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:  "Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth."
God set the earth on a foundation; therefore, it does not move.  
1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

See, the bible is full of things that dont make sense, you have to try really, really hard to rationalise them.

[toadhall]

wesmel06, about your "Solar system" segment,
From what I see the assertions are:
a. that conditions are perfect for our comfortable living;
b. that such perfection is improbable, approaching the point of impossibility;
c. that the occurrence of an extremely unlikely event such as this is evidence of influence by an independent will;
d. that the independent will is the Christian god
Here is what comes to my mind with about argument:
1. The first premise I can accept as reasonable; the Earth is perfect for humans to inhabit. All natural requirements for our comfortable living are fulfilled.
2. As for b â€" From what I know, there is no way to prove, as far as modern science goes, just how improbable it is that the situation for humanity is as it stands. We just don't know enough about the vast and complex universe. Ignorance of other solar systems and the sheer number of them in existence further helps to muddle us - we only know our own is lucky enough to harbor an intelligent life-form.
The case may be the same for the young of creatures who lay large numbers of eggs. Most of the young inside the eggs will not live past a certain period; even less past a later period. It is the one that does survive which may say, "Look, we survived against all the odds - there must be an independent will intervening for us". In the case of pure chance, it was highly probable that one of those eggs would survive - but highly improbable it would be that particular one. Instead of looking at the improbable perfection of its own successful birth process, it would be better to acknowledge the probable perfection of one successful birth process.
3. I have no problems with premise c. I think that the more unlikely an occurring event is, the more reason to believe it may not have been the result of pure chance.
4. Premise d I don’t think should be assumed because it is outside the scope of this topic. An extremely unlikely outcome of a given event, as it appears to humanity, may have been the work of a higher will but from there no more assumptions should be made.