Why Did God Have to Make Evil?

[TheJackel]

First, it's a matter of knowledge, not being, unless you want to support your claim that energy and information are one and the same.

False! To know everything infinitely Voter you would have to be infinitely everything! You want to know what it is to be me in every infinite way Voter, You would have to actually and literally BE ME! The concept of information is applicable to all matter, energy, and things that exist Voter. I think this is where you get confused, and that is probably because you seem to have the concept that information is only data while neglecting to realize all data is material physical patterns  or arrangements of material. That includes everything that I am, and what makes me what and who I am!  This is the definition of infinite information in the context within Omnsicience! So the concepts of information is not just "DATA".  Information is all that makes up any person, place, object, pattern, structure, or thing.

Second, don't you understand the meaning of the word omnipotent?

I do know what it means. You clearly do not properly apply it's meaning to understand why it's a logical fallacy! Nor do you address why that is a logical fallacy. Go back and read that list I gave you please. Your supposed GOD can not create or be the source origin to existence LOL. Nor can it solve infinite regress!

Your argument is like trying to suggest that your GOD can created existence in order to create himself into existence so he himself could exist LOL. EPIC AND TOTAL FAIL at being Omnipotent!.. Nor can you "Know" how to create Knowledge, or all those things itself requires to exist, into existence! It's a total self-collapse my friend.


So let's reformat this Paradox:

Can an omniscient entity know how to create consciousness, information, knowledge, intelligence, self-identity, awareness, mental processing, cognition, material physicality (just to name a few) into existence when itself is slave to require them?

Right there you have a total collapse of Omniscience and Omnipotence!

No I don't, unless you support that a god must necessarily be continually omniscient.

 So when exactly am I ever GOD Voter?  lol  Even when you think your supposed entity isn't in a state of Omniscience, it still couldn't create new information or anything to which it wouldn't already know when it's in a state of Omniscience .

Now trying again, and this time actually address the paradox from the position of Omniscience! More specifically, try tackling that list I gave you. In fact your GOD would be powerless and non-existent entirely without information! It wouldn't even be an IDEA, or concept. A true GOD is the base to all existence Voter, not that which is slave to require information in order to exist! A conscious entity can neither be a universal set of all sets, or the answer to solving infinite regress. Especially when it takes more cause to support consciousness than it does to support existence without consciousness! In fact, consciousness is entirely irrelevant to existence itself.

[TheJackel]

What I think is funny is that you're so blind as to not see the comedic irony in that you did the same thing a page or two back, got a few pats on the back from some individuals, then claim the opposite for me when I do as you did but where you're not completely correct, I am.

You are incorrect!

The fact is, omniscience has been addressed.  It has not been avoided.  Infinite knowledge does not preclude a being with absolute freewill, freewill/free choice.  

You are incorrect!

If God is omni- then He has the power and the knowledge to create a being with absolute freewill.  The failure is not in the Creator, but in the agent that is able to choose death over life.  God created a perfect freewill agent.  That is no mistake.  That Evil entered into creation actively and didn't remain conceptual, isn't the "will" of God that it happen, but a natural by-product of a freewill agent (that God set out to make and did so perfectly) that isn't God AND that doesn't have knowledge of Good and Evil.  His omnipotence shines through that He is able to reconcile this freewill agent BACK to Himself (legally) even though the agent is tainted.  His omnilove shines through in that God Himself pays the penalty of evil to do so.

Nonsensical Preaching! And here is where you completely failed! This is why you ignored 99.9 percent of what I had posted!:

The Paradox with more clarity so it's easier to understand.

Can an Omniscient Entity know how to design and create that which itself requires to exist into existence? when you can show me how you can design and create the following into existence, I will then consider your argument that a possible Omnipotent and Omniscient entity would exist!

----

So now I'm going to teach you a few things about consciousness, awareness and information.. And when I am done, you can then have fun with that list I provide you. Both you and Voter need to carefully read these definitions and how they are applied to consciousness ect.

INFINITE REGRESS:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_regress
The unknown beginning or base/source of origin.. To where everything had to come from somewhere or something. Making potentially all things infinitely regressive until regression becomes impossible.

INFORMATION:
1) "Information is any type of sensory input and output or source to inquiry."

2) "Information as a concept has many meanings, from everyday usage to technical settings. The concept of information is closely related to notions of constraint, communication, control, data, form, instruction, knowledge, meaning, mental stimulus, pattern, energy, perception, matter, and representation."

3) "Information is any type of pattern that influences the formation or transformation of other patterns. In this sense, there is no need for a conscious mind to perceive, much less appreciate the pattern." It's the sum representation of all things.. it's what gives things relevance, substance, and meaning... It's the core to anything that has an awareness or anything that exists...A self-awareness requires knowledge! An intelligence Must have knowledge to apply!, A Self identity must have knowledge to know of itself!

INTELLIGENCE:
1) Intelligence is only The ability to apply knowledge in order to perform better in an environment. Or the processing of knowledge to formulate a response to stimuli..
2) Wiki: "Intelligence (abbreviated int. or intel.) refers to discrete information with currency and relevance, and the abstraction, evaluation, and understanding of such information for its accuracy and value"

KNOWLEDGE:
1) Knowledge is defined by the Oxford English Dictionary as (i) expertise, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject, (ii) what is known in a particular field or in total; facts and information or (iii) awareness or familiarity gained by experience of a fact or situation
2) Simple efficient definition: The collection of information on a subject or experience processed and then stored which provides a base for mechanisms such as intelligence, reason, choice, response, consciousness, and awareness... to which a method of inquiry must be based on. Hence, none of those can exist without first a base of inquiry, or the complex structure of information into a base of knowledge. There is a reason why one must always Know it exists in order to be conscious, aware, or even self-aware!

AWARENESS:
Wiki: “Awareness is the state or ability to perceive, to feel, or to be conscious of events, objects or sensory patterns. In this level of consciousness, sensed data can be confirmed by an observer without necessarily implying understanding. To receive and respond to input.”

UNDERSTANDING INFORMATION FORMATION:
EVOLUTION PART 6

We human beings seem at times to be unable to understand information formation because we think information has to be the result of processing by something with intelligence Since our brains are developed to process information. Some people can not seem to quantify, in many cases, the idea of information developing it's own structures and meanings through the combining, or the merging of other pieces of information in a process called formation. A natural cause and effect process vs a calculated intelligent process. We also seem to fail to understand sometimes that anything, or place of existence, or anything in or of existence could be considered a form of information, or a source of information.. All places and things of existence have information to offer! Thus all things can be considered pieces of information themselves. Hence, information isn't just merely a concept of data or mathematics! Information is matter, anything with mass, color, energy, or simply existence or place of existence...

Example:
“Two colors merging to form another color.. Or two color patterns coming together to form another pattern of color. Hence, the cause and effect process to where color is a representation of information even if it were black and white... Sound is another prime example..”

MIND CONTAINMENT:
EVOLUTION PART 7

Here is your Infinite GOD problem AnimatedDirt lol

[TheJackel]

Actually, I will try make this very simple since all the above is a bit much to read through. I hope this will help in understanding my position, and cut down on all the confusion in regards to the things we have been deeply discussing in a heated debate.  So I will simplify the argument here:

(applying infinite regress here)
If you Voter, or AnimatedDirt can reply to this post without matter, information, energy, material-physicality, or knowledge (base of inquiry).. I will completely concede to the existence of an Omnipotent and Omniscient GOD! [/color][/b]

[Voter]

False! To know everything infinitely Voter you would have to be infinitely everything! You want to know what it is to be me in every infinite way Voter, You would have to actually and literally BE ME!

Incorrect. If someone knew everything there was to know about you, even your every smallest thought, that wouldn't transform them into you.

Second, don't you understand the meaning of the word omnipotent?

I do know what it means.

Then you understand that God could create a world based, in whole or part, on a world in which there was no omniscient god. He would know how such a world would operate due to his omniscience.

[Voter]

Actually, I will try make this very simple since all the above is a bit much to read through. I hope this will help in understanding my position,

The problem isn't that I don't understand your position, it's that you haven't supported it. I ask you for support, and you repeat it, with more exclamation points, but no support. You can believe what you want about energy and information, but don't expect everyone else to accept it.

[Voter]

I don't think you're so stupid that you don't understand the expression in context, so I presume you're bored and trolling. Good-bye.

There wasn't much context to go off of, assumptions make a troll, not asking for clarification. As I wasn't trying to provoke you, cause any drama nor was I rude, I really think calling me a troll is at odds with my behavior. I had not even called your thoughts, you or AnimatedDirt stupid or even implied it in this conversation, only sought to understand your point of view.

In fact I had bowed out of the conversation when it had appeared that we both had no more new ground to cover on the conversation, which as people know of trolls is not troll behavior. We likely would still be going over the same things right now if I had not left the conversation. I'm sure AnimatedDirt appreciates me not continuing when we reached a stand still in the discussion even though I probably still continued longer than I should have. Still not a trollish behavior.

OK, but then I have to change my initial assumption about your intelligence/education. In context my use of "accept" was common and correct.

[Gawen]

Satan obviously doesn't believe all the facts you list. How can you not see this... :brick:  :bananacolor:

Neither do you. Look up Indeterminism.

[Gawen]

It really is amazing to me how voter and Ad willingly try to pull invisible rabbits out of the hat. Their only evidence (such as it is) of a god and its attributes come from their Bible and whatever perceived religious experience they may have had. But they scramble about looking for extra - biblical outs to support that which is not evidence in the Bible or a perceived religious experience. They ask us to support our position, well, maybe I should just speak for myself. They asked me to support my position and I have done so using their Bible's scripture...verse after verse after verse. And I've used several of the greatest Christian philosophers in support of my position. These philosophers may be "extra - biblical", but at least they used the Bible in support of their position.

But no, that's just not good enough for voter and Ad. "What if...", they ask. "How so..." they ask. They divert to "energy" and "Information" and garbage like "Then you understand that God could create a world based, in whole or part, on a world in which there was no omniscient god."

Piss on that. I don't recall reading that in the Bible.

Ad's and voters theodicy - an argument that seeks to justify God's righteousness and God's justice despite the presence of evil and suffering in the world is flawed. The Bible lists what God does and one of these is - he creates evil. Another is that due to his omniscience, we have no free will. Until they can show us otherwise, without using extra - biblical sources, I'm simply not interested in further debate. Likewise, I will not be holding my breath for any Biblical evidence that outweighs the evidence I have given.

[Voter]

It really is amazing to me how voter and Ad willingly try to pull invisible rabbits out of the hat. Their only evidence (such as it is) of a god and its attributes come from their Bible and whatever perceived religious experience they may have had. But they scramble about looking for extra - biblical outs to support that which is not evidence in the Bible or a perceived religious experience. They ask us to support our position, well, maybe I should just speak for myself. They asked me to support my position and I have done so using their Bible's scripture...verse after verse after verse. And I've used several of the greatest Christian philosophers in support of my position. These philosophers may be "extra - biblical", but at least they used the Bible in support of their position.

But no, that's just not good enough for voter and Ad. "What if...", they ask. "How so..." they ask. They divert to "energy" and "Information" and garbage like "Then you understand that God could create a world based, in whole or part, on a world in which there was no omniscient god."

Piss on that. I don't recall reading that in the Bible.

What utter nonsense. I don't recall reading in the bible that God's omniscience precludes him from justly judging. In fact, the bible directly addresses this in Romans 9 (which I referenced way back) and says God can, indeed judge justly. Therefore you are going beyond the Bible in making your charge, and we have every right to go beyond the Bible in making a defense. With this post you're trying to weasel around the fact that we've put up good counterarguments. Unlike you guys, I won't pronounce victory (except perhaps in parody), as it's a complex issue which philosophers of all beliefs have debated for millenia without reaching concensus.

Ad's and voters theodicy - an argument that seeks to justify God's righteousness and God's justice despite the presence of evil and suffering in the world is flawed. The Bible lists what God does and one of these is - he creates evil. Another is that due to his omniscience, we have no free will. Until they can show us otherwise, without using extra - biblical sources, I'm simply not interested in further debate. Likewise, I will not be holding my breath for any Biblical evidence that outweighs the evidence I have given.

If we're sticking to the Bible, then why are you doing all this background stuff on omniscience, when there's a passage that directly deals with it:
Romans 9
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrathâ€"prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for gloryâ€" 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

[TheJackel]

Actually, I will try make this very simple since all the above is a bit much to read through. I hope this will help in understanding my position,

The problem isn't that I don't understand your position, it's that you haven't supported it. I ask you for support, and you repeat it, with more exclamation points, but no support. You can believe what you want about energy and information, but don't expect everyone else to accept it.

What a load of intentional denial.. If you can't understand those very basic and simple concepts Voter, you are not intellectually ready to even have this discussion yet. You failed utterly here because you just replied using matter, energy, information, and what you think is clever use of knowledge to post a reply. Your very post here is 100% proof and support to my argument and you don't even get it.    I will say this one more time for both of you..


Try posting a reply without using INFORMATION, MATTER, ENERGY, KNOWLEDGE, INTELLIGENCE, or MATERIAL PHYSICALITY!


If you can't do that AnimatedDirt, or Voter, you have lost this debate entirely! Start dealing with reality you two, It's scary but for intellectual integrity, respect, and honesty, actually attempt to deal with the reality of why you are both entirely wrong!

[TheJackel]

Incorrect. If someone knew everything there was to know about you, even your every smallest thought, that wouldn't transform them into you.

Information doesn't just have to do with DATA! HELLO! WOW, are you really this intentionally ignorant? For petes sakes kid, I defined what information is in the above post LOL. It's not just my thoughts LOL, It's everything that I am, materially and physically!  lol. Go back and read my posts kid, and really take the time to comprehend why you are playing a game of delusional ignorance! This has nothing to do with whether or not something could create a supposed "world"  You can't know how to create Knowledge into existence lol  You can't know how to create existence into existence .. Nor would he have the power to do that, or know how to create that which he himself would require to exist!.. I'm walking all over that logical pile of crap you call Omniscience, and Omnipotence!. Your failure to not comprehend this is utterly not our problem! Your failure not to comprehend what information is, is also not our problem! Stop with the intentional ignorance, and actually take the time to address things in proper definition and context!


GAH! the dishonest discourse here is on that line of being absolutely amazing! I've never seen people other than Flat Earther's be in so much denial of reality!.

[Voter]

Information doesn't just have to do with DATA! HELLO! WOW, are you really this intentionally ignorant? For petes sakes kid, I defined what information is in the above post LOL. It's not just my thoughts LOL, It's everything that I am, materially and physically!  lol. Go back and read my posts kid, and really take the time to comprehend why you are playing a game of delusional ignorance! This has nothing to do with whether or not something could create a supposed "world"  You can't know how to create Knowledge into existence lol

Why not? Our posts contain information. We created them.

[LegendarySandwich]

Satan/Lucifer, a finite being with finite power, is going against an infinite omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent (depending of who you ask) with infinite power. Satan also knows his future, which doesn't bode well for him, and yet he continues to do this. If he truly has free will, then he is the stupidest character in literature I have ever seen.

Satan obviously doesn't believe all the facts you list. How can you not see this... :brick:  :bananacolor:

...Uh, yes, he does, according to the Bible.

[TheJackel]

No, I'm neither ignorant nor incorrect. Here's the first two entries from a dictionary definition of information:
1. knowledge communicated or received concerning a particular fact or circumstance; news: information concerning a crime.
2. knowledge gained through study, communication, research, instruction, etc.; factual data: His wealth of general information is amazing.

Ahh yes, cherry picking websites that don't fully define what information is.. GJ.. You need to use google a little more son. And I love how you singled out "Knowledge" as the definition of 'information" . The following quote is from the very same site you posted:

.  Knowledge  is an organized body of information, or the comprehension and understanding consequent on having acquired and organized a body of facts:

Now head over to Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information

Information is any type of pattern that influences the formation or transformation of other patterns. In this sense, there is no need for a conscious mind to perceive, much less appreciate, the pattern.[citation needed] Consider, for example, DNA. The sequence of nucleotides is a pattern that influences the formation and development of an organism without any need for a conscious mind.

Systems theory at times seems to refer to information in this sense, assuming information does not necessarily involve any conscious mind, and patterns circulating (due to feedback) in the system can be called information. In other words, it can be said that information in this sense is something potentially perceived as representation, though not created or presented for that purpose. For example, Gregory Bateson defines "information" as a "difference that makes a difference".

If, however, the premise of "influence" implies that information has been perceived by a conscious mind and also interpreted by it, the specific context associated with this interpretation may cause the transformation of the information into knowledge

In 2003, J. D. Bekenstein claimed there is a growing trend in physics to define the physical world as being made of information itself (and thus information is defined in this way) (see Digital physics). Information has a well defined meaning in physics. Examples of this include the phenomenon of quantum entanglement where particles can interact without reference to their separation or the speed of light. Information itself cannot travel faster than light even if the information is transmitted indirectly. This could lead to the fact that all attempts at physically observing a particle with an "entangled" relationship to another are slowed down, even though the particles are not connected in any other way other than by the information they carry.

Another link is demonstrated by the Maxwell's demon thought experiment. In this experiment, a direct relationship between information and another physical property, entropy, is demonstrated. A consequence is that it is impossible to destroy information without increasing the entropy of a system; in practical terms this often means generating heat. Another, more philosophical, outcome is that information could be thought of as interchangeable with energy. Thus, in the study of logic gates, the theoretical lower bound of thermal energy released by an AND gate is higher than for the NOT gate (because information is destroyed in an AND gate and simply converted in a NOT gate). Physical information is of particular importance in the theory of quantum computers.

Example:

A rock before you requires information to exist. This is to where itself is information, a structure of information, or source of out put and input. Hence, if there wasn't any information there to experience, perceive, or process, the rock simply would not exist!. Even empty space has information to offer!. This is why in the real world Voter, information is considered the sum total of all things in the form of energy! They are considered two sides of the same coin voter! You can't have one without the other lol.. And I find it funny that religious people claim that it is Atheists that believe in Nihilism. And we already had a theist here try to make the argument for a Nothing GOD  

Materialist/Realist:

Understands that nothing can not be a person, thing, object, substance, thought, emotion, feeling, place, or form of existing existence!. All things must have material physical value, substance, information, structure, and complexity in order to exist! All things begin with the substance of existence! Hence we believe in what is actually possible and real!

EDIT:

This is also why AnimatedDirt had lost this debate a long time ago when I had posted all this information before. His laziness to not take the time to actually read and comprehend the arguments posted only showed his willingness to simply ramble on while dishonestly ignoring other peoples posted arguments. And I could tell that neither of you even bothered to read them, or even acknowledge them. This includes arguments posted by GAWEN to. If you don't want to hear things that go against your ideological contructs, don't engage in arguments like this! Just stick your fingers in your ears and walk away saying LALALALALALLALA! like other theists do.

[Gawen]

Hmmmm....

Why did God make evil? That's the title of this thread. The Bible says God made evil and some of us here have shown the Biblical evidence. There are theist here that claim God didn't, but I haven't seen the Biblical evidence they should provide that counters the evidence we gave.

The thread degenerates to Omniscience and free will. I have shown Biblical evidence (and evidence from several of the greatest Biblical philosophers) that God is omniscient and we have no free will. The theists here have not shown why God is omniscient AND we have free will (or that God is not omniscient) to any satisfaction.

The thread further degenerates into a bunch of off topic tangents, baseless assertions, hundreds of logical fallacies, semantics and still the two base questions left unanswered.

I can deduce several things from this:
1) The Bible is not the word of God.
2) Some Christians claim parts of the Bible true only when it suits them.
3) The Bible may or may not be the word of God, but some Christians refuse parts of it anyway.
4) Some Christians inject their own meaning of parts of the Bible even when it clearly states otherwise.
5) Some Christians do not read the Bible.
6) Some Christians do not like to be proved wrong.
7) Some Christians do not have the Holy Spirit in them, guiding their thoughts to prove us wrong.
Some Christians may have the Holy Spirit in them but it can't debate either.
9) There is no Holy Spirit.
10) The Christian God is evil.
11) The Christian God does not exist.
12) Christians have no or no good evidence for or against (where applicable):
a) The existence of God
b) God does not make evil
c) God is evil
d) God is omniscient and humans have free will