Why Did God Have to Make Evil?

[Davin]

If God is continuously omniscient, by your definitions he would lack free will himself, and cannot justly be judged for his actions.

If you accept material determinism, then none of us have free will. Yet, we judge and punish unjustly.

And what if one accepts neither?

[Voter]

If God is continuously omniscient, by your definitions he would lack free will himself, and cannot justly be judged for his actions.

If you accept material determinism, then none of us have free will. Yet, we judge and punish unjustly.

And what if one accepts neither?

Then we have free will.

[LegendarySandwich]

It's called pride in thinking he is right/equal/better than God.

If that's true, then Satan is truly an idiot. The biggest idiot in all of literature. His stupidity cannot be calculated.

Is a child who knows they are wrong but insists on stomping their feet screaming, "No, no, no!" truly an idiot or just an intelligence refusing to acknowledge the truth.  Pride makes all of us do many stupid things, doesn't necessarily mean we are stupid.

Satan/Lucifer, a finite being with finite power, is going against an infinite omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent (depending of who you ask) with infinite power. Satan also knows his future, which doesn't bode well for him, and yet he continues to do this. If he truly has free will, then he is the stupidest character in literature I have ever seen.

[LegendarySandwich]

If you accept material determinism, then none of us have free will. Yet, we judge and punish unjustly.

A good point, one I am struggling with. It is one of the reasons why I think our legal system should focus entirely on rehabilitation, not vengeance or punishment.

[Voter]

Suppose we have free will. I then invent a time machine and go back in time to Saturday with tapes of last Sunday's football games. Does the mere existence of these tapes remove the players' free will? This goes directly to the point of whether foreknowledge (what you guys should really be arguing, rather than omniscience) precludes free will.

[Existentialist]

Satan/Lucifer, a finite being with finite power, is going against an infinite omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent (depending of who you ask) with infinite power. Satan also knows his future, which doesn't bode well for him, and yet he continues to do this. If he truly has free will, then he is the stupidest character in literature I have ever seen.

I agree Satan is a bit dim but it's ok, he's a fictional figure, as you say - lacking believability can be one of such a character's main characteristics.

[Voter]

Satan/Lucifer, a finite being with finite power, is going against an infinite omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent (depending of who you ask) with infinite power. Satan also knows his future, which doesn't bode well for him, and yet he continues to do this. If he truly has free will, then he is the stupidest character in literature I have ever seen.

Satan obviously doesn't believe all the facts you list. How can you not see this... :brick:  :bananacolor:

[AnimatedDirt]

Satan/Lucifer, a finite being with finite power, is going against an infinite omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent (depending of who you ask) with infinite power. Satan also knows his future, which doesn't bode well for him, and yet he continues to do this. If he truly has free will, then he is the stupidest character in literature I have ever seen.

You know your ultimate future...are you stupid to endeavor to have joy or freedom, to not harm others?  If there is no meaning to life and each puts meaning into their own life, then from one on the outside looking in, you are just as stupid.

Thank you for establishing that Lucifer/Satan isn't all that smart to continue in his folly.  So his driving force is not intelligence, but... P-R-I-...  I'll let you finish the word.

[Davin]

If God is continuously omniscient, by your definitions he would lack free will himself, and cannot justly be judged for his actions.

If you accept material determinism, then none of us have free will. Yet, we judge and punish unjustly.

And what if one accepts neither?

Then we have free will.

Reality isn't what we accept or not, reality exists independently of whether people accept it or not.

[Voter]

Reality isn't what we accept or not, reality exists independently of whether people accept it or not.

So your point in asking about what one accepts was...?

[Davin]

Reality isn't what we accept or not, reality exists independently of whether people accept it or not.

So your point in asking about what one accepts was...?

So what you had to say about what accepting things has to do with reality.

[Voter]

Reality isn't what we accept or not, reality exists independently of whether people accept it or not.

So your point in asking about what one accepts was...?

So what you had to say about what accepting things has to do with reality.

I don't think you're so stupid that you don't understand the expression in context, so I presume you're bored and trolling. Good-bye.

[Voter]

Suppose omniscience precludes free will. OK as far as it goes, but wouldn't an omniscient god know what your life would be in the absence of an omniscient god? If so, he can justly judge you on that basis. Or a corollary: an omnipotent, omniscient god could determine what we would be like without an omniscient god, and then in his omnipotence create that world.

[Davin]

I don't think you're so stupid that you don't understand the expression in context, so I presume you're bored and trolling. Good-bye.

There wasn't much context to go off of, assumptions make a troll, not asking for clarification. As I wasn't trying to provoke you, cause any drama nor was I rude, I really think calling me a troll is at odds with my behavior. I had not even called your thoughts, you or AnimatedDirt stupid or even implied it in this conversation, only sought to understand your point of view.

In fact I had bowed out of the conversation when it had appeared that we both had no more new ground to cover on the conversation, which as people know of trolls is not troll behavior. We likely would still be going over the same things right now if I had not left the conversation. I'm sure AnimatedDirt appreciates me not continuing when we reached a stand still in the discussion even though I probably still continued longer than I should have. Still not a trollish behavior.

[Sophus]

Suppose omniscience precludes free will. OK as far as it goes, but wouldn't an omniscient god know what your life would be in the absence of an omniscient god? If so, he can justly judge you on that basis. Or a corollary: an omnipotent, omniscient god could determine what we would be like without an omniscient god, and then in his omnipotence create that world.

So... wait- what? How does this justify allowing evil exist if he knows how you would act under every hypothetical circumstance? That means this life isn't a test. He can virtually simulate it in his mind and, according  to you, cast fair judgement in doing so.