Why Did God Have to Make Evil?

[AnimatedDirt]

So follow with me slowly here AnimatedDirt ok,

Before you were ever born or man was ever in existence under -->"your belief system's GOD Concept"<-- Your deity being Omniscient (please see definition of Omniscience) would have planned and known every infinite detail about you and mankind to which would include every choice you would ever make, every feeling you would ever have, what sensations you would ever feel, what every experience you would experience, what every observation you would have, what every action and reaction you or mankind would ever have in total, and in complete utter infinite detail throughout your entire existence, prior to your existence, and after your existence.

There is no possibility for "Free Will" under omniscience!

Infact all purpose becomes lost under Omniscience! If you don't understand what Omniscience means, don't argue as if you do! So I highlighted the area in blue for you so you can better comprehend the problem you are having and not listening to. People are sick and tired of playing on your merrygoround.

Yes, thank you for this.  If you don't mind now, let me help you understand...if you don't believe it be so, at least understand the "logic" of this.

The Christian claims:

• God is Omnipotent
• God is Omniscient
• all others...

If God is Omni-all, then logic says that through His knowledge and power, what He produces is, not only the best, but there is no better way.

God then, for reason unknown to me (as a fact, but I have my opinion/interpretation), choses to create humans.  One of His created (not human) has already, by biblical chronology, brought evil into knowledge of those and their fall is evidence of evil.  So God creates Man.  God creates Man perfectly and places in Man a mind capable of free thought, free will, and even reason, ponder self-existence, (is that known as congnitive reasoning?  I'm not sure of the term).

Let's stop there for a moment.  It is God's "plan", if you will, to create a free will creature.  In His omni>, He has done so perfectly...TO THE POINT, if I may be so bold, to allow this creature the ability to chose against its Creator and the Creator's omniscience.  The creature is not given omni-anything other than life, but life sustained by the One who sustains life.

So this creature is given the choice.  If you'll notice, Lucifer didn't necessarily have a choice to eat of a tree when told not to, but evil stirred in him in the form of pride, we are told all in his own mind.  Hence why pride is the root of all evil.

The "plan" to make a creature with free will is perfectly done!  There's apparently no other way to make a freewill creature without the chance the creature will choose wrong over right.  It has freewill.

To not ramble on, in short, God's omniscience, omnipotence is clearly demonstrated.  God, then in His omni-all is then, instead of waving a magic wand and simply disregarding His own law...which if He is omnirighteous/omnijudge he can't, is lawfully able to declare righteous those that are not.  The point is that ALL people after Adam are tainted with sin.  The law demands perfection as God is perfect.  Likewise ALL people after Christ (and prior) who by faith believe He has paid (would pay) their penalty are then declared sinless...not because they are, but because the price of sin has been paid by The Judge Himself and their righteousness is in Christ and not of themselves.  Justice is served.  No one can then claim that God is unfair or simply waves His wand at will and says you're ok, but you're not, without PROOF.  If the sinner is in Christ, then that sinner is dead through Christ already.

Think of it similar to a class-action lawsuit.  One goes to court and pleads the case for many.  But you must include yourself in the lawsuit to gain if the lawsuit goes your way.  You cannot gain in the lawsuit if you haven't added yourself to it.

I hope I've cleared the misconception that omniscience is opposed to freewill or that "There is no possibility for "Free Will" under omniscience!  Simply knowing everyone's choices prior to the person(s) does not remove freewill.
If not, I'm open to more discussion.

[Sophus]

AnimatedDirt, it's easy for all of us to get lost in this lengthy mess of a thread, but I would be very interested in your response to this post of Gawen's and my own.

[AnimatedDirt]

AnimatedDirt, it's easy for all of us to get lost in this lengthy mess of a thread, but I would be very interested in your response to this post of Gawen's and my own.

I would be happy to.  Give me some time.  I'll attempt to do so within an hour or two.
For starters, I think the above post alludes to the answer, but not specifially.

[Davin]

I would be happy to.  Give me some time.  I'll attempt to do so within an hour or two.
For starters, I think the above post alludes to the answer, but not specifially.

Don't rush it.

[TheJackel]

The Christian claims:

• God is Omnipotent
• God is Omniscient
• all others...

If God is Omni-all, then logic says that through His knowledge and power, what He produces is, not only the best, but there is no better way.

I'm sorry AnimatedDirt but that does not address the argument, and you are trying to do is the suggesting that there is no better way so it must be true. This again is trying to circumvent having to deal with the subject and argument    I would appreciate that you actually address Omniscience and Omnipotence in proper context according to their actual definitions, and critically think about the consequences of those. You could perhaps answer the Paradox I had given you, and then explain.

One of His created (not human) has already, by biblical chronology, brought evil into knowledge of those and their fall is evidence of evil.  So God creates Man.  God creates Man perfectly and places in Man a mind capable of free thought, free will, and even reason, ponder self-existence, (is that known as congnitive reasoning?  I'm not sure of the term).

An Omniscient GOD would have known that before it ever happened. Infinitely knowing means infinitely knowing everything    

As an example 1:

Do you think you could make a choice or commit a sin that your Omniscient deity would not know about? Could you feel something It would not know you are feeling?

As an example 2:

'I' Argument:

The word "I" is philosophically spiritual, but the word itself is meaningless without all the other information that gives "I" an identity. There is a reason why self-identity and self-awareness is on a need to know basis.. If you do not know that you exist or that you are in existence, you wouldn't be self-aware! "I" is only reference to the knowledge of one's self! Without that knowledge or information to which is the base of inquiry to one's self, there could be no ability to have consciousness. Thus an Omniscient GOD would technically be every conscious entity in existence, and every non-conscious object, or thing in existence if it is to posses the sum total of infinite information and knowledge. And this is while still being slave to information and knowledge itself to even know itself exists, or to exist at all!

Let's stop there for a moment.  It is God's "plan", if you will, to create a free will creature.  In His omni>, He has done so perfectly...TO THE POINT, if I may be so bold, to allow this creature the ability to chose against its Creator and the Creator's omniscience.  The creature is not given omni-anything other than life, but life sustained by the One who sustains life.

The problem is, it can't under the rules of Omniscience. How do you create something of free will when you already know in infinite detail everything it will do, choose, feel, experience, observe, or be? It's a paradox that makes it a logical fallacy. It's why it's self-collapsing, and self-canceling. Somethings are just not literally possible. This is equal in trying to argue that Nothing can be an existent person, place, substance, or thing while being nothing. Logical fallacies simply can not be possible. So I hope you can see where that fits into your argument. Though I see what you are trying to argue AnimatedDirt, but it's simply nullified by virtue of Omniscience.

So this creature is given the choice.  If you'll notice, Lucifer didn't necessarily have a choice to eat of a tree when told not to, but evil stirred in him in the form of pride, we are told all in his own mind.  Hence why pride is the root of all evil.

And you are telling me that an Omniscient GOD would not have known any of this in regards to his own supposed creations? So are you now willing to remove Omniscience from the list of magical attributes? Or are they only applicable when you think they fit your current position? I say that because it seems you are unaware of yourself placing limits on the knowledge of a supposed infinitely knowing entity.

So does your is your GOD omniscient or not?

The "plan" to make a creature with free will is perfectly done!  There's apparently no other way to make a freewill creature without the chance the creature will choose wrong over right.  It has freewill.

Plan would fail because he can not have the power to do so when he himself is Omniscient of everything infinitely. They are direct contradictions AminatedDirt, they are not compatible or even self-compatible what-so-ever

To not ramble on, in short, God's omniscience, omnipotence is clearly demonstrated.  God, then in His omni-all is then, instead of waving a magic wand and simply disregarding His own law...which if He is omnirighteous/omnijudge he can't, is lawfully able to declare righteous those that are not.

This is what I am referring to in regards to self-inventive circular arguments AminatedDirt  :/

The point is that ALL people after Adam are tainted with sin.

Have any real evidence to support that? Again you are here making arguments of pure assumption and claiming them to be magical Facts.

The law demands perfection as God is perfect.

You just contradicted your above quoted argument.

Likewise ALL people after Christ (and prior) who by faith believe He has paid (would pay) their penalty are then declared sinless...not because they are, but because the price of sin has been paid by The Judge Himself and their righteousness is in Christ and not of themselves.  Justice is served.  No one can then claim that God is unfair or simply waves His wand at will and says you're ok, but you're not, without PROOF.  If the sinner is in Christ, then that sinner is dead through Christ already.

The red highlighted area is the crux to your own assertion and argument.

Think of it similar to a class-action lawsuit.

I'll be happy to sue your GOD for my human imperfections that include poor eyesight, low tolerance to circular arguments, the inability to be as perfect as he, ect. After-all it's a sin to be as powerful as the deity himself right?.

One goes to court and pleads the case for many.  But you must include yourself in the lawsuit to gain if the lawsuit goes your way.  You cannot gain in the lawsuit if you haven't added yourself to it.

Yep, and I have judged your deity Guilty of Murder, and Genocide, abortion, hypocrisy, barring false witness, evil ect. All the evidence is written in his own words according to you. So he must be banished to eternal hell right?

Give me one good rational reason why anyone should worship such hypocrisy as a GOD?

I hope I've cleared the misconception that omniscience is opposed to freewill or that "There is no possibility for "Free Will" under omniscience!  Simply knowing everyone's choices prior to the person(s) does not remove freewill.
If not, I'm open to more discussion.

I'm sorry AnimatedDirt but you didn't clear up the misconceptions because you still have yet to fully grasp the meaning of Omniscience and it's implications, and consequences.

[AnimatedDirt]

If there is no suffering and no evil in heaven, Heaven is by definition, a perfect place. If God created evil because it wanted us to have free will; free will is more important than anything else. If free will is so importance that God creates evil in order to allow moral free will, beings in Heaven must have free will.

I agree and disagree.  Here's why;

Heaven is a perfect place, however by the admission of the Bible itself, and thus by God (presumably), Heaven is not void of evil.  The evidence for this is simply the acct. of Lucifer coming to the conclusion on his own without any external suggestion, found pride in his heart.

I agree that freewill is important, of utmost importance.  I also agree in that in order that there be freewill, there must be evil.

I disagree that God created evil.  To put plainly and simply, the mere fact (which I realize you dispute as an Atheist)...ok, for the sake of argument, let's assume God exists as He says He does...that God exists means evil exists.  Not by creation, but by mere fact.  If there is good, the only way to define good is opposed to.  Maybe it's similar to Newton's Third Law of Motion.  I know the concept, but I am no physicist or mathmatician to refute it as a good analogy.  It seems fitting to me.  ( I could even have the wrong law)

Heaven is a place where there is free will, but no evil.

In light of the previous, no.

This means that free will can exist without the presence of evil and suffering.

Yes, because previous to Lucifer's epiphany of pride, we (Christians assume) Heaven was void of the reality of evil, while the mere existence of God (good) would mean evil existed, just hadn't been manifested yet.

This means that free will theodicy is not valid. God could make everywhere the same as heaven, with the same free will but without evil/suffering.

It is possible and if God is still actively creating beings, then I'm sure He is creating perfect beings with the same capability to evil as Lucifer and/or Adam and Eve to choose wrong.

It is perfectly possible for God to grant advantages to people without the experience of evil/suffering: After all, Adam and Eve were created perfect.

Yes.  But when you say "people", I assume you mean humanity as we know it.  Right?  See the point right above this.

God could grant everyone the experience of no suffering, and put everyone in heaven immediately. This would prevent all suffering because in Heaven, there is no suffering.

If God is omni-everything, which as my previous posts mentions, He is an Omni-Judge.  One cannot simply wipe out evil without punishment for evil.  That would not be Justice by any means, either by humanity or God.  Let's put it this way, if God is omni-Judge, then He is by definition, omni-lawmaker.  To break omni-law is to not be God.  He cannot, by nature, be what He isn't.  So with this in mind, God in His omnipotence and omniscience made a LEGAL way to reconcile humanity back to Him without going against His nature...which He can't anyway.  The law is satisfied.  Justice has prevailed.  God gets His created back with Him which were lost and doomed to death.  God, with His omnipotence, recreates each person born in sin as a new creation, in a new body, but with the same mind, now made perfect, with sinless natures, AND still with the capacity to choose.  What person, metaphorically speaking, grabs the hot iron skillet again having felt the burn the first time?

But, God does not prevent all suffering.

While a parent trys as they can to prevent injury, sometimes the meaningless injuries are allowed as a lesson.  Now, you may say and rightly conclude that this does not compare with the suffering seen throughout humanity, nor does it seem right when a God "kills" humans.  There is A LOT behind this and I don't have all the knowledge to explain it all, especially to your liking and acceptance.  One might simply say that as for the flood fairy tale, it is said that Noah preached for 120 years concerning the coming of a flood.  No one listened and so all, aside from his family, were lost.  (this is somewhat proof to me that the flood acct. was not global)

As an aside, it seems the only type of God that creates evil and suffering and designs life so that it needs these evil and suffering, is either immoral or insane.

I would agree.  However, as I have mentioned above, God's design of a perfect human with the capacity to choose was done perfectly.  It is evil, the result of it, that has lead humanity down this path.  I don't know where it stops, I don't know when God will say, "Enough", and come as He said He would.  I don't know what He's waiting for.  What I do know, or my faith comforts me in, is that He says He will make everything right.  The evil will be dealt with.  Justice will be served.

If angels (and god) exist in heaven, it is possible for beings to be in heaven without first going through an experience of suffering. Therefore, if God is good, it could immediately place everyone in heaven. However, god is not good, because it continues to let us suffer. On the other hand, Heaven is not a place of "all good". If angels can betray God in Heaven, it shows that Gods plan is faulty. Therefore, God is faulty.

I think the above points explain most of this execpt once again the notion of God's "plan" being faulty comes up.  I will once again say that the "plan" is not faulty.  The "plan" of creating a perfect, freewill being is perfectly done.  The "plan" of saving this being that has chosen wrong that evil has so disturbed it to catastrophic suffering, can be, will be, and is legally reconciled back to its Creator, not lost to death, but legally given life.

His foreknowledge in no manner whatsoever, precludes our freewill.

[TheJackel]

I disagree that God created evil.

So now are you backpedaling on the GOD being the Creator and Rule maker to all that exists..  Does that include this list? How does one design and create the following into existence?

* existence
* intelligence
* information
* knowledge
* Experience, and experiences
* Ground state of complexity or point zero
* Empty Space
* Capacity
* self-awareness
* self-identity
* consciousness
* a place to exist in
* mind containment
* light/dark
* infinity
* Wisdom
* time
* sight
* hearing
* smell
* observation
* calculation
* manipulation
* thought
* perception
* reality
* Feelings
* Emotions
* complexity
* cause and effect
* Morality
* Cognitive behavior
* Inertia
* Progress / progression
* Mental Processing
* Memory
* Osculation
* intent
* Ability
* Positive, Negative, neutral
* Imagination
* Design
* Point of View
* Life
* mobility
* power
* divinity
* math

It seems your GOD is slave to things he himself can not create :cool: .. You can not know how to create that which yourself requires to exist especially when that includes knowledge and all the information that makes knowledge a base of inquiry. This is also direct show of why Creationism is false, and why Omnipotence is also a logically fallacy! One can not have the power to create that which oneself is slave to require in order to exist!. And it's funny that all those things are exactly what we ourselves require to exist!.. These are fundamentals of why it takes more cause to support consciousness than unconsciousness. Gods are thus logical fallacies, nor can the write the "Rules" or "Laws" to existence when they themselves are subject to the same rules  

One cannot simply wipe out evil without punishment for evil. That would not be Justice by any means, either by humanity or God.

Contradiction 101.  

[AnimatedDirt]

Prior to this point it seems to me you're arguing the existence of God.  For the purpose of this thread, we must presume God exists.

God then, for reason unknown to me (as a fact, but I have my opinion/interpretation), choses to create humans.

This also is not relevant to the argument I have posted  :pop:  You are playing to attach ignorance on an entity that you say is not capable of ignorance by virtue of Omniscience. So under that non-circumventable point, you must realize that under your argument that your GOD intentionally invented EVIL/SIN, and all Evils/SINs that ever occurred are all planned, known, executed, put into action, and controlled in infinite detail from all infinite perspectives to where there could be no possible avenue of Free will.

Not at all, and just because you say so, in no manner makes it so.  In "fact", it is exactly as I propose it is, omniscience does not preclude freewill.  It simply acknowledges what will happen.  It is not, therefore, the creator of the happenings.  If God, as I mentioned, is omniscient...knows all, then He knows the best and only way to make a freewill being.  Having absolute freewill, even God cannot therefore, control the actions of a freewill agent with absolute freewill.  It seems so elementary to me and yet you throw in all kinds of "philosophies" to disprove it when in simplest form it proves itself.

In fact, to be Omniscience would require the argument for Solipsism. So all of what you think you are pondering, reasoning, feeling, or perceive would all have been infinitely known to your Omniscient entity before you ever existed.

Agreed...how does that then remove that He knows?  See the previous point above.  Solipsism?  And yet here we are.  Two entities in a discussion.

Hence there is no choice you could ever make that wouldn't already be known and judged. You could make no free choice or have free will when your supposed creator knows it all in infinite detail prior to your own existence.

This simply does not make sense.  Once again, in kind fashion, simply knowing the choice does not remove the freedom to choose.  It does not mesh at all.  

In fact, an Omniscient deity would be so infinitely knowing that it could and would actually be you in every infinite way! :/.. So you are not applying the paradox I posted for you to this argument.    At best its an argument to say he's righteous to murder, kill, hate, be evil, torture, break all the rules of morality, be dishonest, be unloving ect.

Not at all.  On the human level, is it morally wrong to use the death penalty?  One assumes that at that point, the accused is guilty beyond a shadow of doubt, however humanly, we make mistakes.  We are not omni-anything.

Basically you are collapsing everyone of those omni's.. You are making up excuses to justify anything it has done wrong.

Death or punishment/penalty, justly dealt, is wrong?  I'm glad you're not sitting on as a judge in any of our courts.

And that is a very poor message you want to send to people that might take that literally as justification for their own murderous rampages ect. That is how extremism is seeded and how cults are formed into dangerous religions. I've seen the Omni all argument before, and always to those that make the argument fail to actually understand it and the definitions of those omni's. I was really hoping you wouldn't go that route

I haven't.  I've plainly shown you're position as wrong.

The point is that ALL people after Adam are tainted with sin.

Have any real evidence to support that? Again you are here making arguments of pure assumption and claiming them to be magical Facts.

Evidence you don't agree with.  So what next?

The law demands perfection as God is perfect.

You just contradicted your above quoted argument.

Not at all, you seem to have missed the whole point.  Jesus is perfect and if we died in Christ, He died in our stead, a substitutional death/payment for sin, then we can justly be declared "perfect"...the quotes mean that while our state here, prior to Christ's coming and changing us, our state is sinful, while our standing, is perfect.  It is a gift and not that we are literally made perfect this side of life.

Likewise ALL people after Christ (and prior) who by faith believe He has paid (would pay) their penalty are then declared sinless...not because they are, but because the price of sin has been paid by The Judge Himself and their righteousness is in Christ and not of themselves.  Justice is served.  No one can then claim that God is unfair or simply waves His wand at will and says you're ok, but you're not, without PROOF.  If the sinner is in Christ, then that sinner is dead through Christ already.

The red highlighted area is the crux to your own assertion and argument.

It's not.  See the above to explain again.  The proof is in Christ's death and the individual that holds faith in Christ, has perfection credited...do you understand what credit is?...to him/her as perfect.

Think of it similar to a class-action lawsuit.

I'll be happy to sue your GOD for my human imperfections that include poor eyesight, low tolerance to circular arguments, the inability to be as perfect as he, ect. After-all it's a sin to be as powerful as the deity himself right?.

You're falling back into defense which does not help your argument.  The imperfections you speak of are a result of evil and not the result of design.  The design of Man was perfect, however the only perfect left in humanity is the ability to choose and think freely.

Your Atheism is proof.  Care to argue this?

One goes to court and pleads the case for many.  But you must include yourself in the lawsuit to gain if the lawsuit goes your way.  You cannot gain in the lawsuit if you haven't added yourself to it.

Yep, and I have judged your deity Guilty of Murder, and Genocide, abortion, hypocrisy, barring false witness, evil ect. All the evidence is written in his own words according to you. So he must be banished to eternal hell right?

And the many that have judged others to death for their crimes?  Are they guilty of the same?  The problem is you simply don't understand or refuse (I say more to the latter) to see that Man is tainted and that taint, sin, is the cause of evil in the world.  Please see my last post to Gawen on when it will/should end.

Give me one good rational reason why anyone should worship such hypocrisy as a GOD?

It's not hypocrisy.  I can't give you.  It is different for each person.  If you have no need of anything, what, short of God appearing to you, would change your mind?  Your question is a logical fallacy on your own ideals.

I hope I've cleared the misconception that omniscience is opposed to freewill or that "There is no possibility for "Free Will" under omniscience!  Simply knowing everyone's choices prior to the person(s) does not remove freewill.
If not, I'm open to more discussion.

I'm sorry AnimatedDirt but you didn't clear up the misconceptions because you still have yet to fully grasp the meaning of Omniscience and it's implications, and consequences.

I'm sorry, TheJackel if you fail to see that omniscience does not remove freewill.  If I have repeated myself, it is only because the same argument given deserves the same answer.

[AnimatedDirt]

I disagree that God created evil.

So now are you backpedaling on the GOD being the Creator and Rule maker to all that exists..  Does that include this list? How does one design and create the following into existence?

Evil is not an existence of a substance, but of an action opposed to good.  Who is using logical fallacies to prove their own?

Contradiction 101.  

Yep, you certainly fell prey to this.

[Thumpalumpacus]

When you combine omniscience with omnipotence and perfect goodness, you have a trilemma -- really, a dilemma, because at most, you can only have one of these, because if you think about it, omniscience and omnipotence are essentially identical: the omnipotent being can do anything, which includes knowing something; and the omniscient being knows everything, including how to do anything.

The answer is obvious, and easy: the God of the Bible, by its own testimony, is at best amoral, and at worst evil.  I can understand the psychological reasons for not embracing this view, but there is no logical impediment to doing so.

[AnimatedDirt]

When you combine omniscience with omnipotence and perfect goodness, you have a trilemma.  At most, you can only have one of these, because if you think about it, omniscience and omnipotence are essentially identical: the omnipotent being can do anything, which includes knowing something; and the omniscient being knows everything, including how to do anything.

I can agree to this, Thumpalumpacus, and this can also be discussed, that is the "dilemma" of omni and perfect goodness.  Although I don't claim to have the perfect answer to your satisfaction.

[Sophus]

So.... there is evil in heaven?

[AnimatedDirt]

So.... there is evil in heaven?

Evil certainly did exist for a time in heaven, what amount of time it was between the thought and the casting out of heaven, I have no clue.  If freewill continues to exist, as I propose it will as evidenced by God's design into Man, then the potential seems to also exist in as "potential energy".  Good and Evil will always be known, never forgotten or unknown again...as to evil in action, it won't.

[Sophus]

So.... there is evil in heaven?

Evil certainly did exist for a time in heaven, what amount of time it was between the thought and the casting out of heaven, I have no clue.  If freewill continues to exist, as I propose it will as evidenced by God's design into Man, then the potential seems to also exist in as "potential energy".  Good and Evil will always be known, never forgotten or unknown again...as to evil in action, it won't.

Then heaven's not a utopia. Does this mean hell isn't a distopia?

[AnimatedDirt]

So.... there is evil in heaven?

Evil certainly did exist for a time in heaven, what amount of time it was between the thought and the casting out of heaven, I have no clue.  If freewill continues to exist, as I propose it will as evidenced by God's design into Man, then the potential seems to also exist in as "potential energy".  Good and Evil will always be known, never forgotten or unknown again...as to evil in action, it won't.

Then heaven's not a utopia. Does this mean hell isn't a distopia?

Hell is an end, not an existence.