Why Did God Have to Make Evil?

[TheJackel]

I think the worst part of this discussion is AnimatedDirt and Voter positing their ideology and every aspect of it as "FACTS".. Such dishonesty that there is no room for an honest debate. They have already ruled out having to face and address arguments that specifically contradict them. And that is why you see the circular self-invented arguments you see here today. It's getting rather old, and I consider this preaching because they don't want to address the argument honestly. It's ignoring the definition of Omniscience repeatedly! Neither of them are taking the time to fully understand the consequences of that.  

If you guys can't honestly debate, why are you here? Are you phishing for ignorance, Preaching, Or looking to understand why people don't follow your ideology?

[lookitsaustin]

@lookitsaustin: Check out the spoiler tag:

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Genius!  

[TheJackel]

Something I wrote on the Forbidden Fruit.

The Forbidden Fruit: The Apple

An all knowing GOD wouldn't put poisonous life forms within the reach of little children, or even adults. Or make them at all. That's not very loving is it?

[Gawen]

Christians just can't get their heads wrapped around there being no free will. The Bible teaches that there is no free will. Paul, Augustine, Luther and Calvin taught no free will. God is able to override our free will; through predestination.

Ephesians 1:3-6 [NIV]: Praise be to [God], who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and willâ€" to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

Quite stupidly, in the scripture above, you can only enter heaven if you are blameless (without sin) and to do that you need Jesus. But you only have Jesus if God has chosen you as one of the ones who is blessed with Jesus!
Here is another: Ephesians 2:10 [NIV]: For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."[/color]

God chooses some people, before time, and grants them a 'gift' to conform to Jesus according to God's plan. Those who are chosen are automatically destined to 'do good works' which 'God prepared in advance for them to do. People don't choose to do good, and accepted into Heaven, or that people choose to do good and come to accept Jesus. The Bible clearly states that God makes specific people do specific 'good works'.

Romans 8:28-30 [NIV]: "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

God has called certain people according to what God wants to get done, and then these people love God. God then "works for the good" of these people. People are predestined to be "conformed" to Jesus; not that these people acted well and then accepted God. They are predestined to love God. It doesn't matter about their free will or whether they wanted to accept Jesus, or even if they believe in Jesus or not. God "predestined", "called", "justified" and "glorified" those who it chose. Their choice, if they had one, was irrelevant.

The Bible specifically, clearly and definitely says over and over that such choices were chosen by God, not by you. Those people's actions are not according to their will, but to God's - "according to his will and pleasure" and "according to his purpose". It's not your will or pleasure, not your purpose, and certainly not your choice.

But now we have two problems.

1) What of the others who God has chosen NOT to conform to Jesus, to be blameless and holy? I reckon they make similar choices in life to those who ARE chosen, but they just don't get it right because God hasn't created them or chosen them in that way. God has created them to fail, and I also reckon they don't even know it. It could be that you are one of them and don't know it.

2) If God is just in who he calls to be chosen, what are Christians? How do they make sense of God is not the all-loving God that they believe? God is lying, or Christians are deceived. Paul saw these problems: Romans 9: 10-15 [NIV]: “Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad - in order that God's purpose in election might stand not by works but by him who calls - she was told "The older will serve the younger". Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated". What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion" [Exodus 33:19]”

Paul's answer makes no sense. It doesn't address the question: Is God just? How can a just God predetermine people to sin, to be hated by God, and predetermine them not to 'conform to Jesus', and then judge those people for that which was beyond their control? Paul later goes on to affirm that free will does not affect our fate: If our actions and nature are determined by God, how can god blame us for those actions?

Romans 9:16-19 [NIV]: It does not therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed on all the earth." [Exodus 9:16] Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

Paul has asked "Is God unjust?" Well, his answer should shock anyone with a brain to comprehend:
Romans 9:20-21 [NIV]: But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"[Isaiah 29:16, 45:9] Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Well, there you have it, God is unjust, simply because it can be! There is no justification other than it being arbitrary. God makes some people "for noble use", chosen and predestined to do good works 'which God prepared in advance' 'according to his purpose'. If you're not lucky enough to be chosen, then you are for common use, relegated to hell and torment, a life without conformity to Christ. You may THINK you are, but only God would know. Not only is this unjust, Paul says you have no right to raise a concern.

I have more, but I think that is enough for now.

[Gawen]

I'm only going to niy pick one thing in this post. The part in red below should be the first item in the list:

• God created everything that isn't God including His angels which have freewill also.
• One angel got the prideful thought (by freewill) that it isn't fair he's not like God or equal to Him
• That angel, Lucifer, convinced 1/3 of the rest of the angels of the same idea
• Having brought evil/sin into God's presence, (which cannot be) they were thrown out.  Had God simply anhilated Lucifer and his angels, what then does that say to the other angels?  If you go against God, you get zapped.  But so that God's mercy, love, righteousness is proven, God allows sin to enter and do its work.
• When God creates humans Lucifer then says, "Ah Ha!  Now lets see if you allow them to think freely."  To do so, God must allow Lucifer to tempt...and in essence give them the knowledge of good and evil which they had no idea about.
• The created choose to do wrong, and thus follow evil instead.
• The plan that was set before creation is put into effect. Why?  Because God loves that which He creates and knows that not all would choose evil over good.  Not only that but also to prove that sin is evil and leads to death.  Again God's properties are similar to fire.  If you touch fire, it burns.  If you are against God, there is no life in you...and you die.
• Since the first created beings are now sinful, their offspring (us) are "sold into slavery" "even from conception" not having done or chosen anything at all.  (Again, you'll have to look into that further if you want clarification on what that means.)
• The plan requires it all be legal and forthright.  God is Judge, afterall, and cannot go against His own law.  The law is, if you sin, you die as sin transgresses the law and thus it separates you from God, the sustainer of life.  Death is the result/consequence.
• "But now, a righteousness from God, apart from law has beenmade known." (see Romans 3:21 and onwards)
• The penalty of sin is death.  Either each person pays the penalty him/herself or they "die in Christ" and His righteousness is credited to our acct and so, even though we die in this life, we live when it counts...the next which commences when Christ returns to give the gift we accepted by faith in Christ's righteousness.

[TheJackel]

I'm only going to niy pick one thing in this post. The part in red below should be the first item in the list:

• God created everything that isn't God including His angels which have freewill also.
• One angel got the prideful thought (by freewill) that it isn't fair he's not like God or equal to Him
• That angel, Lucifer, convinced 1/3 of the rest of the angels of the same idea
• Having brought evil/sin into God's presence, (which cannot be) they were thrown out.  Had God simply anhilated Lucifer and his angels, what then does that say to the other angels?  If you go against God, you get zapped.  But so that God's mercy, love, righteousness is proven, God allows sin to enter and do its work.
• When God creates humans Lucifer then says, "Ah Ha!  Now lets see if you allow them to think freely."  To do so, God must allow Lucifer to tempt...and in essence give them the knowledge of good and evil which they had no idea about.
• The created choose to do wrong, and thus follow evil instead.
• The plan that was set before creation is put into effect. Why?  Because God loves that which He creates and knows that not all would choose evil over good.  Not only that but also to prove that sin is evil and leads to death.  Again God's properties are similar to fire.  If you touch fire, it burns.  If you are against God, there is no life in you...and you die.
• Since the first created beings are now sinful, their offspring (us) are "sold into slavery" "even from conception" not having done or chosen anything at all.  (Again, you'll have to look into that further if you want clarification on what that means.)
• The plan requires it all be legal and forthright.  God is Judge, afterall, and cannot go against His own law.  The law is, if you sin, you die as sin transgresses the law and thus it separates you from God, the sustainer of life.  Death is the result/consequence.
• "But now, a righteousness from God, apart from law has beenmade known." (see Romans 3:21 and onwards)
• The penalty of sin is death.  Either each person pays the penalty him/herself or they "die in Christ" and His righteousness is credited to our acct and so, even though we die in this life, we live when it counts...the next which commences when Christ returns to give the gift we accepted by faith in Christ's righteousness.

I only need to say the following to which invalidates all of that.

Omniscience, Omnipotence, and "All Loving".  All of which are complete contradictions of themselves and of the above quoted post from AnimatedDirt. It simply goes in one ear and out the other with them  

[Gawen]

God created everything that isn't God including His angels which have freewill also.

If there is no suffering and no evil in heaven, Heaven is by definition, a perfect place. If God created evil because it wanted us to have free will; free will is more important than anything else. If free will is so importance that God creates evil in order to allow moral free will, beings in Heaven must have free will.

Heaven is a place where there is free will, but no evil.

This means that free will can exist without the presence of evil and suffering. This means that free will theodicy is not valid. God could make everywhere the same as heaven, with the same free will but without evil/suffering. It is perfectly possible for God to grant advantages to people without the experience of evil/suffering: After all, Adam and Eve were created perfect. God could grant everyone the experience of no suffering, and put everyone in heaven immediately. This would prevent all suffering because in Heaven, there is no suffering. But, God does not prevent all suffering. As an aside, it seems the only type of God that creates evil and suffering and designs life so that it needs these evil and suffering, is either immoral or insane.

If angels (and god) exist in heaven, it is possible for beings to be in heaven without first going through an experience of suffering. Therefore, if God is good, it could immediately place everyone in heaven. However, god is not good, because it continues to let us suffer. On the other hand, Heaven is not a place of "all good". If angels can betray God in Heaven, it shows that Gods plan is faulty. Therefore, God is faulty.

[Gawen]

I only need to say the following to which invalidates all of that.

Omniscience, Omnipotence, and "All Loving".  All of which are complete contradictions of themselves and of the above quoted post from AnimatedDirt. It simply goes in one ear and out the other with them  

I know. I've been debating this stuff for more than 15 years. They just can't decompartmentalise. It gets old quickly now. My patience wears thin faster. Really, the only thing that keeps me doing it is for the lurkers, both theists and atheists. Many are still learning this stuff and by hearing our arguments that totally refute theirs, I hope that we have been good teachers.

[Sophus]

God created everything that isn't God including His angels which have freewill also.

If there is no suffering and no evil in heaven, Heaven is by definition, a perfect place. If God created evil because it wanted us to have free will; free will is more important than anything else. If free will is so importance that God creates evil in order to allow moral free will, beings in Heaven must have free will.

Heaven is a place where there is free will, but no evil.

This means that free will can exist without the presence of evil and suffering.

Pretty much the point I tried to make earlier. Either heaven is not a utopia, or evil never needed to exist in the first place.

[TheJackel]

I only need to say the following to which invalidates all of that.

Omniscience, Omnipotence, and "All Loving".  All of which are complete contradictions of themselves and of the above quoted post from AnimatedDirt. It simply goes in one ear and out the other with them  :/ And Voter ponders why he thinks I am so uncivilized  :shake:

[Gawen]

God created everything that isn't God including His angels which have freewill also.

If there is no suffering and no evil in heaven, Heaven is by definition, a perfect place. If God created evil because it wanted us to have free will; free will is more important than anything else. If free will is so importance that God creates evil in order to allow moral free will, beings in Heaven must have free will.

Heaven is a place where there is free will, but no evil.

This means that free will can exist without the presence of evil and suffering.

:shake:

[TheJackel]

Well, damn. I missed your post and I didn't have to tread over the same ground... :pop: So this is what happens when discussions are reduced to circular arguments. It's also a common tactic theists like to use to reduce arguments of decent to pure ignorance, or to the point where people stop reading and listening. It's kind of like voting blasphemous points of view down on Youtube so they would become hidden, or tagged as "bad, spam, trolling, or evil". It's how the game is played and they know it  

Hence, just pretend said argument was never made and keep on rolling out circular logic as if said argument magically doesn't apply...

[Gawen]

Well, damn. I missed your post and I didn't have to tread over the same ground... :pop: So this is what happens when discussions are reduced to circular arguments. It's also a common tactic theists like to use to reduce arguments of decent to pure ignorance, or to the point where people stop reading and listening. It's kind of like voting blasphemous points of view down on Youtube so they would become hidden, or tagged as "bad, spam, trolling, or evil". It's how the game is played and they know it

Theists are the most disingenuous people I have ever met.

[TheJackel]

Well, damn. I missed your post and I didn't have to tread over the same ground... :pop: So this is what happens when discussions are reduced to circular arguments. It's also a common tactic theists like to use to reduce arguments of decent to pure ignorance, or to the point where people stop reading and listening. It's kind of like voting blasphemous points of view down on Youtube so they would become hidden, or tagged as "bad, spam, trolling, or evil". It's how the game is played and they know it

[Sophus]

Well, damn. I missed your post and I didn't have to tread over the same ground...