Why Did God Have to Make Evil?

[TheJackel]

You even continue to ignore the actual meaning of Omniscience because neither of you can seem to comprehend it, or understand the consequences of it and why it nullifies even your own self-invented nonsense. Especially in considering so called "PLANS"
[/b]

Jackel, I ignore you because I think there are other atheist regulars here who are better thinkers and writers than you, and more civil.

No, you ignore me because you can't address the argument. I am perfectly civilized when people can actually make honest engagements in a discussion. So why is it that you can't address an argument honestly Voter? And yes, there other people here that are better "writers" than I am. However, you seem to use that excuse as if they are only writers that allow you to skip around in circles without ever having to directly address the argument without self-inventive deflections. I am only attempting to keep you honest Voter. So when I post the meaning of Omniscience, you continue to skip around it as if you don't comprehend it. You weren't exactly ignoring me Voter, you were ignoring the definition of "all knowing", or Omniscience. You would even have to ignore the definitions of all the Omni powers theists like to give to a GOD. So you either abide by those, or you need to simply drop them and admit they are self-contradictions, and self-collapsing.  Even Davin is trying to point these out to you by example. However, I am just simply more direct, and I like to get straight to the point without circular arguments. Most theists don't like those kinds of discussions because they will simply lose them.  So why is it Voter that theist see directness or bluntness as uncivilized? Is it because it doesn't give them circular movement within an argument? Probably.. Creationists don't like this either.

So can you Voter, Animated Dirt actually address the problem directly and honestly?

And btw, I'm a realist/materialist. Atheism just seems to come with the territory. Hence, my intentions or beliefs are not specific to atheism!

Example:

Nothing can't be something, or a person, place, or thing. That includes entities, GODS, substance, or form of existence. Nothing is not existent. So when I get arguments that suggest a GOD is outside of material physicality, space, time, or the rules of existence, I can't help but notice the intentional game of self-invented circularity of argument designed to deflect from having to address an argument they can't handle. They refuse to enter an discussion with honesty. I even sometimes fail to abide by this and end up getting my butt handed to me. Davin I believe has put me in my place once already. So please stop inventing deflective arguments, and address the valid points and arguments we make here.

---

So what I want you to do voter is actually address an argument without trying to self-invent excuses or arguments in attempt to circumvent them when they are simply not circumventable. You are basically trying to circumvent rational logic and reason. Such as the fact that I would never consider anything that has killed as being a "GOD". It would end right there no matter what excuse you try to give, or what rationality you would like to try and invent for it. It's straight up Hypocrisy of the 10 commandments. The Island of Dr Monroe is a perfect example of what's wrong with that picture. And I don't think theists are willing to honestly address that.

[AnimatedDirt]

Davin, it is useless, as I see, to discuss with you since you cannot see the difference between a plan within a plan whereby the PLAN is fulfilled and not failed when the rest are put into place to fulfill.

It's really very simple: Did god's plan include Adam and Eve eating the fruit he told them not to eat, or is this god not all knowing? Of course there is another option: god knew what they would do, but planned otherwise for no particular reason.

One last time.  Hopefully, if I worded something wrong before I wont do it again.  God's "plan" has not failed.  It is the created that failed the initial.  I would have to go into a very long thesis on original sin, the Fall of Satan, and the reason Satan is allowed to live on.(which I likely couldn't do correctly anyway)  In a nutshell;

• God created everything that isn't God including His angels which have freewill also.
• One angel got the prideful thought (by freewill) that it isn't fair he's not like God or equal to Him
• That angel, Lucifer, convinced 1/3 of the rest of the angels of the same idea
• Having brought evil/sin into God's presence, (which cannot be) they were thrown out.  Had God simply anhilated Lucifer and his angels, what then does that say to the other angels?  If you go against God, you get zapped.  But so that God's mercy, love, righteousness is proven, God allows sin to enter and do its work.
• When God creates humans Lucifer then says, "Ah Ha!  Now lets see if you allow them to think freely."  To do so, God must allow Lucifer to tempt...and in essence give them the knowledge of good and evil which they had no idea about.
• The created choose to do wrong, and thus follow evil instead.
• The plan that was set before creation is put into effect.  Why?  Because God loves that which He creates and knows that not all would choose evil over good.  Not only that but also to prove that sin is evil and leads to death.  Again God's properties are similar to fire.  If you touch fire, it burns.  If you are against God, there is no life in you...and you die.
• Since the first created beings are now sinful, their offspring (us) are "sold into slavery" "even from conception" not having done or chosen anything at all.  (Again, you'll have to look into that further if you want clarification on what that means.)
• The plan requires it all be legal and forthright.  God is Judge, afterall, and cannot go against His own law.  The law is, if you sin, you die as sin transgresses the law and thus it separates you from God, the sustainer of life.  Death is the result/consequence.
• "But now, a righteousness from God, apart from law has beenmade known." (see Romans 3:21 and onwards)
• The penalty of sin is death.  Either each person pays the penalty him/herself or they "die in Christ" and His righteousness is credited to our acct and so, even though we die in this life, we live when it counts...the next which commences when Christ returns to give the gift we accepted by faith in Christ's righteousness.

Thus the "plan" is fulfilled and successful.  It hasn't failed.  Sin is proven ugly and pride is the beginning of the end.

To further substanciate that I'm done with you is your inability or refusal to see that it is not God that failed when He set out to give freewill.

It was your wording, "God didn't "plan" to purposely fail, but knew the outcome." that lead me to think that god failed. It is clear now that you made that statement in error.

I thought the quotes made that clear...I admit partly to blame.

He cannot then dictate what the created is to do if the basic premise is to give FREEWILL.

Not talking about dictating, I'm talking about god knowing what they will choose, seems to put everything in place (put the tree in the garden, created the snake to tempt them), so that they would more than just have the opportunity to disobey, but he also engineered their temptation. A temptation of which these people had no knowledge would even exist, not to mention that the talking creature was created by god. Why should they not trust a creation of god, especially without the knowledge of good and evil?

Again, simply knowing the created would fail, is not failure on God's part.  He created that which He set out to create.  A being able to think and act according to it's own will...to choose.  If there is no choices to choose from, there is no choice.  If God had not allowed freewill, there would be no choice.  The fact that Lucifer (Satan) exists is testament to evil entering into a perfect world regardless where freewill is desired.  Up to Lucifer's pride, evil was unknown to the created, but right and wrong was.

That means that the created is free to choose.

Free to choose something unknown to god?

I don't know what you mean by this, but I hope the above explains whatever this asks.

The "plan(s)" is put into place to then, while the created fails, the Creator still is able to save the created despite the "sold into slavery" sting of sin.  You might need to look that up to get the idea of it.

So Adam and Eve fulfilled that part of the plan that created a world with sin, or are you saying that sin is unnecessary in gods plan?

No. Adam and Eve were participants of God's creative work that Satan tempted and used his knowledge of good and evil to steer them against God.  Am I saying sin is unnecessary in God's plan?  Sin exists APART from God's plan.  It is as the Bible and you should understand.  Dark is not created, but when light is seen.  Likewise, sin is not created, but when evil (and thus good) is known.  It's pure logic.  If good exists, then the opposite exists.  If we know what dark is, that means we have knowledge of light.

You can't understand simple things.

I think I've more than demonstrated my ability to understand even very complicated things. Including the simple statement "God didn't "plan" to purposely fail[...]" which implies that god failed but did not plan to. The fault is not on me, but on you. Please refrain from unwarranted personal attacks.

Not a personal attack...and if so, I apologize.

The point remains that the plan has not failed.  The created (first Lucifer, then man) failed.  God created a perfect being that has full freewill.  God does have those that do love Him by freewill.  Sin is ugly and the result is ultimately death...among the many causes of death that we know.  Pride, when allowed to grow, results in death, but spawns all the other ugly things we see in our society.  When pride sparks, death comes.

[LegendarySandwich]

One last time.  Hopefully, if I worded something wrong before I wont do it again.  God's "plan" has not failed.  It is the created that failed the initial.

If the creation has failed, do you blame the creation, or the creator?  

I would have to go into a very long thesis on original sin, the Fall of Satan, and the reason Satan is allowed to live on.(which I likely couldn't do correctly anyway)

Maybe because it's bullshit that makes no sense? Just a thought.

In a nutshell;

• God created everything that isn't God including His angels which have freewill also.
• One angel got the prideful thought (by freewill) that it isn't fair he's not like God or equal to Him
• That angel, Lucifer, convinced 1/3 of the rest of the angels of the same idea

Why would God create Lucifer, knowing full well what he would do in the future? Why would he let his angels be tempted?

[/li][li]Having brought evil/sin into God's presence, (which cannot be) they were thrown out.

God created sin/evil, and he made it so that he despise it and it can not be in his presence.

Had God simply anhilated Lucifer and his angels, what then does that say to the other angels?

...That God is a righteous God, who quickly strikes down evil? Isn't that what Voter is saying?

If you go against God, you get zapped.  But so that God's mercy, love, righteousness is proven, God allows sin to enter and do its work.

Why couldn't God just rid Lucifer of evil? That nicely gets rid of all problems.

[/li][li]When God creates humans Lucifer then says, "Ah Ha!  Now lets see if you allow them to think freely."  To do so, God must allow Lucifer to tempt...and in essence give them the knowledge of good and evil which they had no idea about.

The choice do to evil must have existed to have free will, and yet they had no knowledge of good and evil...?

[/li][li]The created choose to do wrong, and thus follow evil instead.

Why couldn't God have given them the balls to say "Shut the hell up you snake, I'm not going against God's word"?

[/li][li]The plan that was set before creation is put into effect.  Why?  Because God loves that which He creates and knows that not all would choose evil over good.

...Because he made it so.

Not only that but also to prove that sin is evil and leads to death.  Again God's properties are similar to fire.  If you touch fire, it burns.  If you are against God, there is no life in you...and you die.

Seems a little harsh for beings you created.

[/li][li]Since the first created beings are now sinful, their offspring (us) are "sold into slavery" "even from conception" not having done or chosen anything at all.  (Again, you'll have to look into that further if you want clarification on what that means.)

That's stupid.

[/li][li]The plan requires it all be legal and forthright.  God is Judge, afterall, and cannot go against His own law.  The law is, if you sin, you die as sin transgresses the law and thus it separates you from God, the sustainer of life.  Death is the result/consequence.

So, he's not omnipotent? Why can't he change his laws? Why would he create such laws if he knew the consequences of them from the beginning?

[/li][li]The penalty of sin is death.  Either each person pays the penalty him/herself or they "die in Christ" and His righteousness is credited to our acct and so, even though we die in this life, we live when it counts...the next which commences when Christ returns to give the gift we accepted by faith in Christ's righteousness.[/li][/list]

Jesus's death seems to be little more than a Get Out of Jail Free card.

Thus the "plan" is fulfilled and successful.  It hasn't failed.  Sin is proven ugly and pride is the beginning of the end.

I could come up with a better plan than God.

Again, simply knowing the created would fail, is not failure on God's part.

For someone who's omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent, it sure as hell is.

He created that which He set out to create.  A being able to think and act according to it's own will...to choose.  If there is no choices to choose from, there is no choice.  If God had not allowed freewill, there would be no choice.  The fact that Lucifer (Satan) exists is testament to evil entering into a perfect world regardless where freewill is desired.  Up to Lucifer's pride, evil was unknown to the created, but right and wrong was.

And choice is good because God made it so.

No. Adam and Eve were participants of God's creative work that Satan tempted and used his knowledge of good and evil to steer them against God.  Am I saying sin is unnecessary in God's plan?  Sin exists APART from God's plan.  It is as the Bible and you should understand.  Dark is not created, but when light is seen.

Because God made it so.

Likewise, sin is not created, but when evil (and thus good) is known.  It's pure logic.  If good exists, then the opposite exists.  If we know what dark is, that means we have knowledge of light.

And God made logic.

The point remains that the plan has not failed.  The created (first Lucifer, then man) failed.  God created a perfect being that has full freewill.  God does have those that do love Him by freewill.  Sin is ugly and the result is ultimately death...among the many causes of death that we know.  Pride, when allowed to grow, results in death, but spawns all the other ugly things we see in our society.  When pride sparks, death comes.

If I create a plan to crash my car into the side of a building, and I successfully do so, then my plan has not failed.

[Thumpalumpacus]

How can a Perfect Creator make a Failed Creation?

Can a Perfect Carpenter build a crooked cabinet?  And does it make sense for him to get angry at the cabinet for having skewed angles?

Can the plans of an Omnipotent God be waylaid by impotent Man without that God's consent?  

What meaning does free will have when one's soul (assuming that such a thing exists) is held hostage with the threat of Hell?  Wouldn't the worship thus extracted be about as voluntary as money surrendered at gunpoint to a robber?  Would the Christian reader exonerate the robber when he argues "But, your Honor, she chose to give me the money, I didn't force her to"?  Why then, would he or she exonerate God's behavior?

Blackmail, genocide, group punishment, eternal torture, these are all evil things.

[Davin]

@lookitsaustin: Check out the spoiler tag:

Code Select Expand

[spoiler]Stuff[/spoiler]

Genius!    Thank you, I'm still learning this forum. I went ahead and did this to my earlier reply so it would shorten the page.

Not a problem. I fully intended that to be a friendly suggestion and not a smart ass reply.

[AnimatedDirt]

LegendarySandwich, you're saying you'd rather a God that dictates what you do?  You'd rather not have freewill?  You're choosing right now!  How would you like to be forced to go to heaven and "play a harp on a cloud" all day, every day, for eternity...while being given freedom to think, just not the freedom to act on your freethinking?

Get rid of Lucifer?  What about LegendarySandwich?  Get rid of you too?  Well, it seems you're thinking just like those that hold contempt for God and the Flood...yet when you say or suggest it, it's "logical."

I suppose you want to live in a dictatorship?

Better "plan" than God?  When has a human built anything with free thought?

So because you say something is "stupid"...that's you're argument?  You said it's stupid.  So endeth the discussion.

[LegendarySandwich]

LegendarySandwich, you're saying you'd rather a God that dictates what you do?  You'd rather not have freewill?  You're choosing right now!  How would you like to be forced to go to heaven and "play a harp on a cloud" all day, every day, for eternity...while being given freedom to think, just not the freedom to act on your freethinking?

Who made it so that I value freewill, and the ability to think?

Get rid of Lucifer?  What about LegendarySandwich?  Get rid of you too?

...What.

Well, it seems you're thinking just like those that hold contempt for God and the Flood...yet when you say or suggest it, it's "logical."

Say or suggest what?

I suppose you want to live in a dictatorship?

No, I don't.

Better "plan" than God?  When has a human built anything with free thought?

...What.

So because you say something is "stupid"...that's you're argument?  You said it's stupid.  So endeth the discussion.

It's stupid that the descendants have to pay for something their ancestors did.

[AnimatedDirt]

How can a Perfect Creator make a Failed Creation?

Repeating.  Creation is not failed.  The beings God created are exactly what He created, free thinking, free choosing.  Now, to save the created from their folly...if not one is saved, THEN CREATION has failed.

Can a Perfect Carpenter build a crooked cabinet?  And does it make sense for him to get angry at the cabinet for having skewed angles?

If He built a crooked cabinet, then there is no sense in getting angry.  However if the cabinet is animated and given the freedom to choose, and the cabinet chooses to be crooked...that is different.  

Can the plans of an Omnipotent God be waylaid by impotent Man without that God's consent?

No...hence why the "plan" has not failed.  

What meaning does free will have when one's soul (assuming that such a thing exists) is held hostage with the threat of Hell?

As long as the soul rejects that which gave it life, then it is not held hostage, but instead chose to side "unwisely".

Wouldn't the worship thus extracted be about as voluntary as money surrendered at gunpoint to a robber?  Would the Christian reader exonerate the robber when he argues "But, your Honor, she chose to give me the money, I didn't force her to"?  Why then, would he or she exonerate God's behavior?

Name one Christian doing anything Godly out of this fear and I'll show you a deluded Christian.  I've spoken of this before it's as simple as a text to answer.  (Rev. 3:15, 16)

Blackmail, genocide, group punishment, eternal torture, these are all evil things.

Blackmail?  When God came Himself?  Genocide?  There will be many of EVERY nation, but all will be of the same thinking.  Eternal torture?  No.  More like an ending that is eternal...eternally separated.  Evil to the finite mind which denys God.  It is mercy to those that while they deserve the same as the others, have placed simple faith into Christ and by that faith, are given a gift.  Nothing more.

[AnimatedDirt]

LegendarySandwich, you're saying you'd rather a God that dictates what you do?  You'd rather not have freewill?  You're choosing right now!  How would you like to be forced to go to heaven and "play a harp on a cloud" all day, every day, for eternity...while being given freedom to think, just not the freedom to act on your freethinking?

Who made it so that I value freewill, and the ability to think?

Get rid of Lucifer?  What about LegendarySandwich?  Get rid of you too?

...What.

Well, it seems you're thinking just like those that hold contempt for God and the Flood...yet when you say or suggest it, it's "logical."

Say or suggest what?

I suppose you want to live in a dictatorship?

No, I don't.

Better "plan" than God?  When has a human built anything with free thought?

...What.

So because you say something is "stupid"...that's you're argument?  You said it's stupid.  So endeth the discussion.

It's stupid that the descendants have to pay for something their ancestors did.

Now all of a sudden, when I quote exactly what I'm referring to you play ignorant?  I guess we are through then.

[LegendarySandwich]

LegendarySandwich, you're saying you'd rather a God that dictates what you do?  You'd rather not have freewill?  You're choosing right now!  How would you like to be forced to go to heaven and "play a harp on a cloud" all day, every day, for eternity...while being given freedom to think, just not the freedom to act on your freethinking?

Who made it so that I value freewill, and the ability to think?

Get rid of Lucifer?  What about LegendarySandwich?  Get rid of you too?

...What.

Well, it seems you're thinking just like those that hold contempt for God and the Flood...yet when you say or suggest it, it's "logical."

Say or suggest what?

I suppose you want to live in a dictatorship?

No, I don't.

Better "plan" than God?  When has a human built anything with free thought?

...What.

So because you say something is "stupid"...that's you're argument?  You said it's stupid.  So endeth the discussion.

It's stupid that the descendants have to pay for something their ancestors did.

Now all of a sudden, when I quote exactly what I'm referring to you play ignorant?  I guess we are through then.

Maybe it'd be a bit easier for me to understand which of my points you're referring to if you used quotes. I'm not "playing ignorant" here.

[AnimatedDirt]

Maybe it'd be a bit easier for me to understand which of my points you're referring to if you used quotes. I'm not "playing ignorant" here.

Why couldn't God just rid Lucifer of evil? That nicely gets rid of all problems.

To do so is to remove free will.
The people prior to the flood, apparently, were also warned.  Not one came knocking on the fairy tale ark to ask if they too could sail away.  They all chose...the parents chose for their children just as you would choose for yours to not partake of such delusion.

[LegendarySandwich]

Maybe it'd be a bit easier for me to understand which of my points you're referring to if you used quotes. I'm not "playing ignorant" here.

Why couldn't God just rid Lucifer of evil? That nicely gets rid of all problems.

To do so is to remove free will.

Isn't the devil kind of above humans and the free will issue? I mean, for fuck's sake, he's the fucking devil.

Even if God didn't want to change him, he could have just killed him. I mean, he's killed lots of humans in the past.

The people prior to the flood, apparently, were also warned.  Not one came knocking on the fairy tale ark to ask if they too could sail away.

Why should they have?

They all chose...the parents chose for their children just as you would choose for yours to not partake of such delusion.

That's an assumption that I don't like you making about me.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Repeating.  Creation is not failed.  The beings God created are exactly what He created, free thinking, free choosing.  Now, to save the created from their folly...if not one is saved, THEN CREATION has failed.

Well, the apex of his Creation, humans, fell short of his hopes.  How is that not a failure?

If He built a crooked cabinet, then there is no sense in getting angry.  However if the cabinet is animated and given the freedom to choose, and the cabinet chooses to be crooked...that is different.  

To argue Free Will, you must explain why Hell is not a cogent threat to behave a certain way only.

No...hence why the "plan" has not failed.  

Given that your bible claims that your god initiated the Noachic flood because humans fell short of God's wishes, I'd say your assessment here is unsupported by your own canonical document.

As long as the soul rejects that which gave it life, then it is not held hostage, but instead chose to side "unwisely".

"Your Honor, I didn't murder her.  She chose not to give me her purse, so I shot her so I could take it."  Would you kill your child if for some reason they disown you?  Would you torture him or her?

Name one Christian doing anything Godly out of this fear and I'll show you a deluded Christian.  I've spoken of this before it's as simple as a text to answer.  (Rev. 3:15, 16)

No True Scotsman goes without a kilt, either. Also, please explain the pertinence of your cite ("15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarmâ€"neither hot nor coldâ€"I am about to spit you out of my mouth. ") to this conversation, because it isn't apparent.  It doesn't address fear, which is the issue here.

Blackmail?  When God came Himself?

Yes.  "Surrender your mind to me, or I will torture you forever" is blackmail.

Genocide?  There will be many of EVERY nation, but all will be of the same thinking.

Would you kindly address my point?  This is a meaningless "answer".

Eternal torture?  No.  More like an ending that is eternal...eternally separated.

Well, that's hardly a torment, then.  I have been godless for over thirty years, and I am much happier living without the brute.  I'll remain atheist in spite of your efforts, if what you're saying is right.

Evil to the finite mind which denys God.

Yes, I am unafraid to think for myself.  The god you worship would, if he existed, be evil, and worthy of nothing but contempt.  My 13-year-old son is more mature, balanced, and pure of heart than the monster described in the Bible.

It is mercy to those that while they deserve the same as the others, have placed simple faith into Christ and by that faith, are given a gift.  Nothing more.

That and three bucks will get you a cup of coffee.  It does not, however, answer anything.  Thanks, but I will choose Free Will.

[Sophus]

Repeating. Creation is not failed. The beings God created are exactly what He created, free thinking, free choosing. Now, to save the created from their folly...if not one is saved, THEN CREATION has failed.

Then there must be no freewill in heaven since there is no evil there.

[TheJackel]

• God created everything that isn't God including His angels which have freewill also.

Does that include the place to where your GOD must reside? Where exactly is your GOD? And what exactly isn't GOD? Evidence?

[/li]
[li]One angel got the prideful thought (by freewill) that it isn't fair he's not like God or equal to Him

Evidence to prove this? Or this is assumption based on what's written in a book? And how is there free will where there is a supposed GOD that is Omniscient. How does one choose a path to which will not already be known to an infinitely knowing GOD? And is your GOD not equally bound to the rules of existence as everything else is?

[/li]
[li]That angel, Lucifer, convinced 1/3 of the rest of the angels of the same idea

Proof and evidence that will verify and substantiate such a claim please. And is decent from a figure of power the key message here? Anything is evil if it becomes defiant of Power and Control? You might want to look up where the Devil came from in the literature  and history of Christianity. It's main purpose is to demonize anything not Christian. Same goes for the dogma under "Christian Realism". It's purely used as a fear mongering tool to keep people aligned with ideology and to stomp out other apposing religions. Kind of like how 300 years of burning was used to do just that.

[/li]
[li]Having brought evil/sin into God's presence, (which cannot be) they were thrown out.  Had God simply anhilated Lucifer and his angels, what then does that say to the other angels?  If you go against God, you get zapped.  But so that God's mercy, love, righteousness is proven, God allows sin to enter and do its work.

GOD itself by definition is a hypocrite. To event death and then kill himself has brought forth his own failure to abide by the 10 commandments. Genesis is a prime example of Genocide, murder, and the killing of baby bunnies even though it's story is a literal logical fallacy for many reasons. By logic alone, GOD should have condemned himself to hell. It's hardly righteous, or even " all Loving". Especially when true love is purely unconditional, or of pure neutrality and forgiveness. And again, you skip the part that all sin, and all sins to be committed would all already be known by an Omniscient GOD. So you are right back to the puppet show.

[/li]
[li]When God creates humans Lucifer then says, "Ah Ha!  Now lets see if you allow them to think freely."  To do so, God must allow Lucifer to tempt...and in essence give them the knowledge of good and evil which they had no idea about.

Failed rationality, and I say that because you still speak as if that were even necessary when such things could simply be made impossible or irrelevant. You are trying to invent rationals to what has shown to be an imperfect world in contrast to what you suggest is a perfect deity that is all knowing and shouldn't have ever faulted in such a way in his supposed creations. If you (as if you were in GODS seat) have to allow sin, then you are advocating and responsible for any sin that is then made. You  can not blame the beasts of your creations because you yourself are liable and responsible for anything they do wrong! Especially when yourself is shown to be a hypocrite.

[/li]
[li]The created choose to do wrong, and thus follow evil instead.

The creator allowed them to do wrong knowing they would do wrong. Thus condemning faults he himself invented while knowing every outcome that would transpire from it. Again you are trying to rationalize responsibility on those who are faulted by design according to your beliefs as if the design itself is magically not at all faulty by design. It's like trying to blame a A.I. Robot for killing someone, or a machine that accidentally blows up and kills a bunch of people. Perhaps humans should have the right to sue your GOD for their faults?

[/li]
[li]The plan that was set before creation is put into effect.  Why?  Because God loves that which He creates and knows that not all would choose evil over good.  Not only that but also to prove that sin is evil and leads to death.  Again God's properties are similar to fire.  If you touch fire, it burns.  If you are against God, there is no life in you...and you die.

So he invents suffering, death, painful child birth, the vicious food chain of animals eating each other alive, fire that will burn people to death, water that will drown people to death, accidents, the sensation of pain, the invention of anger and hate ect. The list goes on. And worst of all, you used the common fear mongering tool that religions like to use " Again God's properties are similar to fire.  If you touch fire, it burns." It sounds like you worship that which you fear.  

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[li]Since the first created beings are now sinful, their offspring (us) are "sold into slavery" "even from conception" not having done or chosen anything at all.  (Again, you'll have to look into that further if you want clarification on what that means.)

Another example of cult like qualities within the religion. And again this is using fear mongering as a tool to enforce servitude to power. It's pre-damning the innocent at best as if it makes any moral sense what-so-ever. Again you need to read some books on the mechanics of brainwashing of you want clarification of what that means.

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[li]The plan requires it all be legal and forthright.  God is Judge, afterall, and cannot go against His own law.

Oh but it does go against his own law. Did your GOD not kill? After all he invented it according to your beliefs! The law wouldn't even be necessary if the invention of death did not exist!. Clearly this GOD is either really dumb, or an egotistical psychopathic maniac getting kicks out of death, pain, suffering, and judging. After all, a world of pure bliss couldn't possibly exist could it!

The law is, if you sin, you die as sin transgresses the law and thus it separates you from God, the sustainer of life.  Death is the result/consequence.

When he casts himself into eternal hell and separates himself to such a death for his own hypocrisy and sin, then you can call such a god concept righteous. And under this logic, you would probably assume anyone that has died either by accident or murder would be evil. So to seek knowledge is a sin that separates you from GOD! Ahh yes! that key little point about not seeking knowledge that will separate you from GOD (the religion/ideology).. Such as science, logic, and reason perhaps.

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[li]"But now, a righteousness from God, apart from law has beenmade known." (see Romans 3:21 and onwards)

So a god that kills is righteous, just, and moral and is not subject to follow his own laws? Ahh, the power must remain powerful while being worshiped by fear and force even if itself is a hypocrite. Otherwise you will be killed and damned forever!. Interesting eh.

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[li]The penalty of sin is death.

Translation.. Decent from power comes the penalty of death. Fear me, obey me, worship me as GOD, be servitude to me and my will, or face death and damnation!

Either each person pays the penalty him/herself or they "die in Christ" and His righteousness is credited to our acct and so, even though we die in this life, we live when it counts...the next which commences when Christ returns to give the gift we accepted by faith in Christ's righteousness.[/li][/list]

Ahh yes, the salvation/carrot to joining the ideology. First we seed doubt and fear of eternal damnation for not being Christian or of the ideology, we offer you salvation if you should choose to join and repent your sins for not being apart of it. It's also used to target impressionable minds, or people who are emotionally vulnerable or going through tough times. It's the phishing and targeting of the weak. This is a method used commonly in brainwashing to make the targeted victim feel as if they have no other choice but to join the ideology. It's how cults function and operate.

Thus the "plan" is fulfilled and successful.  It hasn't failed.  Sin is proven ugly and pride is the beginning of the end.

Pretty sad considering everything right down to every possible choice or decision that could have ever be made by man would already have been known by said Omniscient being. The plan was fullfilled before it was ever put into action. Much like a movie that goes from production to being played on screen as intended. And again you resort to more fear mongering as a tool of argument.

I thought the quotes made that clear...I admit partly to blame.

Under Omniscience, such plans are complete and already played out in infinite detail. That means the jews were meant to be slaughtered in genocide, the nuclear bomb was meant to go off, humans were meant to sin and be judged, all sins were prejudged before plan was ever put into action, everything that has transpired or will transpire is all apart of a plan that has already been completed before it ever began. There was no free choice, there was not free will.

He cannot then dictate what the created is to do if the basic premise is to give FREEWILL.

This flies in the face of Omniscience, and Omnipotence. You are essentially proving this every time you make an argument like this.

Not talking about dictating, I'm talking about god knowing what they will choose, seems to put everything in place (put the tree in the garden, created the snake to tempt them), so that they would more than just have the opportunity to disobey, but he also engineered their temptation. A temptation of which these people had no knowledge would even exist, not to mention that the talking creature was created by god. Why should they not trust a creation of god, especially without the knowledge of good and evil?

Again this is flying in the face of Omniscience. This lesson you are posting however is about disobedience to power and control. It's about seeking knowledge that circumvents power and servitude to it. Temptation to seek knowledge is not a bad thing at all. Especially when Genesis contradicts that very argument. At first it states the world is mans do what it wants with it, and then genesis contradicts himself by placing rules that restrict that. At worst it damns the ignorance and faults of the human species. You can't get any more illogical than that.  

Again, simply knowing the created would fail, is not failure on God's part.

here you fail to even comprehend your own argument. Since when is a plan designed to fail suddenly not the fault of that which designed it to fail while knowing every outcome that would arise from it in infinite detail? Again, do you understand what Omniscience means? This entire argument flies in the face of omniscience!

He created that which He set out to create.  A being able to think and act according to it's own will...to choose.

again that is not possible under omniscience.

If there is no choices to choose from, there is no choice.  

There is no choice to choose from when something that supposedly made you already knows every choice you will ever make before you were ever made. It's a pure case of the self-made puppet show on display. So this again would fly in the face of omniscience.  

If God had not allowed freewill, there would be no choice.

here again you are making baseless assertions without proof. Also this is a failure to understand how choices are made because choices are simply the weighing of information. Even the said deity is bound to those rules. It's a simple part of consciousness, and no mind can actually create consciousness! Minds observe and process information. Even a GOD couldn't make a choice or decision, or even know itself exists without information! GODS can't create reality, or existence because they are subject to those very same rules in order for them to exist should they exist. It's pretty funny that even your supposed GOD is slave to something it can not create!

So tell us how free will would not exist without a GOD?. It's more like free will wouldn't exist without information, or the processing of it! When you get get the order of things correctly, you will realize that GODS are logical fallacies because even consciousness begins with information, material physicality, and complexity.  

The fact that Lucifer (Satan) exists is testament to evil entering into a perfect world regardless where freewill is desired.  Up to Lucifer's pride, evil was unknown to the created, but right and wrong was.

A perfect world wouldn't be vulnerable to the entrance of "evil". Again you are trying to invent circular arguments in attempt to circumvent logic and reasons to support your position.

I don't know what you mean by this, but I hope the above explains whatever this asks.

That means you don't understand the consequences of Omniscience. Please read the definition again and then rethink think problem you are having in understanding Davin's argument.

No. Adam and Eve were participants of God's creative work that Satan tempted and used his knowledge of good and evil to steer them against God.

puppets are participants in pre-planned plays. How does evil steer something against an all powerful and omniscient GOD? Contradiction 101.

Am I saying sin is unnecessary in God's plan?  Sin exists APART from God's plan.

This alone would be a disqualifier in my book to anything being considered a GOD. You are at best trying to justify murder, death, sin, hate, anger, genocide, drowning, freezing to death, Orca's ripping apart a baby seal, birth defects, war, servitude, Power by virtue of EGO ect.

It is as the Bible and you should understand.  Dark is not created, but when light is seen.

Contradicting everything not god is created.. So your GOD didn't create Darkness? Funny because technically there can only ever be one or the other. So how was light and dark designed and created into existence? Or do you not understand that darkness referred to the night cycle vs they day cycle of an Earth day. Hence, it was based on the rising sun, and the fear of darkness or the darkness that night brings. The Earth appears to be formless at night until the sun rises. This is actually the only way Genesis makes any sense btw. And that is really the only way you can interpret it logically. When people attempt to put it into context of the literal formation of the Earth and Universe it makes zero sense!  It also shows that the Christian GOD is particularly a Sun GOD, or the "Light" that sustains life! AKA taken partly from the Egyptians!

Likewise, sin is not created, but when evil (and thus good) is known.  It's pure logic.  If good exists, then the opposite exists.  If we know what dark is, that means we have knowledge of light.

I think you are having trouble with logic here. And at worst you try to equivocate darkness as a negative or equal to evil when the two are not within equal context. Darkness is referred to the lacking of light from the sun and nothing more. In many cases the darkness is bliss because I would hate to try and sleep with the sun shinning in my face all the time! Light can make your eyes hurt, or even make you go blind. The bible just plays on the fear of darkness philosophically however.