Why Did God Have to Make Evil?

[LegendarySandwich]

Already answered. What part don't you understand?

To make this analogy as accurate as possible, you would have to be the one who gave him food allergies.

If such allergies are genetic and I'm his father, I suppose I did.

Purposefully.

[AnimatedDirt]

AnimatedDirt and Voter, I wrote a long piece on Evil a few pages back. May I ask what is your take on that?

Why would my "fundamentalist" opinion be of any consequence?  I'll look back though.

[Davin]

You said, "It had nothing to do with the fruit, but doing what is wrong...following evil and not God." However she had no knowledge of good and evil until after eating the fruit, which not only gave her the knowledge that eating the fruit would be evil, but also punishment.

Not correct.

And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground--trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

They knew the taking of the fruit was against God's will and so wrong.  They only knew the tree was called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
They were not wanting of fruit as they had a whole garden full of fruit.

So going against gods will is not evil? Maybe you should define evil.

And got punished for doing something they didn't know was evil.

No, they chose to go against God which if He is the sustainer of life, brings death.  Evil is what they chose, not what they did, necessarily.

So they did not do evil but chose to an action that was evil... and they were punished for not doing anything evil. Got it.

Stay on topic, we're talking about Adam and Eve doing something that god planned and getting punished for it

It wasn't me confusing the "plans"...I simply clarified where you are mistaken.

How many plans are there? How many different plans does an all knowing god need to make? This god knows what's going to happen, but he still needs some backup plans?

God didn't "plan" to purposely fail, but knew the outcome.  Both are plans, one is a plan that doesn't come into play until it is needed.

So this god (being all knowing) knew he would fail, but decided to make up a backup plan in case he didn't fail? Adam and Eve didn't do anything god did not know they would do, so in that plan, they did what god planned, and got punished for fulfilling gods plan.

Both Adam and Eve were fully aware of what was right and wrong.  They weren't clueless.

This god told them not to do something he knew they would do, because it was part of his plan for them to do it, and get punished for it.

[AnimatedDirt]

So this god (being all knowing) knew he would fail, but decided to make up a backup plan in case he didn't fail?

Your point doesn't even follow logic...making a backup plan in cas he didn't fail?  He made a backup plan knowing humanity would fail...God's vidication, if you will, is in the salvation of a fallen creature despite their failure.  Failure is ours, hot His.

Adam and Eve didn't do anything god did not know they would do, so in that plan, they did what god planned, and got punished for fulfilling gods plan.

Again you show your illogical thinking.  God's plan was that His creation choose to follow Him.  Knowing they would be tempted by evil, they would fail and so a plan of saving that which was lost was planned and eventually put into effect in order that His plan not fail.  His created will choose Him...those that don't choose Him, choose to be apart from that which sustains them and created them and so they die.  It's not necessarily "punishment" as it is consequence because all die.  Do you disagree with the laws of nature here?

[Davin]

So this god (being all knowing) knew he would fail, but decided to make up a backup plan in case he didn't fail?

Your point doesn't even follow logic...making a backup plan in cas he didn't fail?  He made a backup plan knowing humanity would fail...God's vidication, if you will, is in the salvation of a fallen creature despite their failure.  Failure is ours, hot His.

This god knew what would happen, but according to you made two different plans; one for what he knew would happen (him failing), and a backup one in case what he knew would happen didn't happen. If you don't understand that, I think I could try to make it even more basic.

Adam and Eve didn't do anything god did not know they would do, so in that plan, they did what god planned, and got punished for fulfilling gods plan.

Again you show your illogical thinking.  God's plan was that His creation choose to follow Him.  Knowing they would be tempted by evil, they would fail and so a plan of saving that which was lost was planned and eventually put into effect in order that His plan not fail.  His created will choose Him...those that don't choose Him, choose to be apart from that which sustains them and created them and so they die.  It's not necessarily "punishment" as it is consequence because all die.

So this didn't happen:

16 To the woman he said,

   â€œI will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
   with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
   and he will rule over you.”

 17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

   â€œCursed is the ground because of you;
   through painful toil you will eat food from it
   all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
   and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
   you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
   since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
   and to dust you will return.”

Do you disagree with the laws of nature here?

Of course not, but I'm not the one claiming there's some supernatural thing am I? Nope, it's you who are disagreeing with the laws of nature.

[AnimatedDirt]

This god knew what would happen, but according to you made two different plans; one for what he knew would happen (him failing), and a backup one in case what he knew would happen didn't happen. If you don't understand that, I think I could try to make it even more basic.

I never said he made two different plans.  The plan is to create humans and for those humans to freely choose Him.  Knowing the humans would fail at following directions, the plan to save the plan, if you will, was planned for before the humans were created in order that the plan not fail.  (in essence the PLAN was one plan) When the plan to make man fly was set into action, did the first plan succeed or fail?  IT failed, but not the plan to fly...it progressed and ultimately the plan was fulfilled.  One plan enhanced the other.  While the analogy breaks down as a human continuing effort, the analogy fits in that the PLAN didn't fail.  

So this didn't happen: Gen 3:16-19 NIV

It happened, but as a consequence of sin, not punishment.  The "punishment" (as you say) is really a consequence.  If you put your finger in the flame, you will get burned.  It is both a consequence and a punishment as a result of the immutable properties of fire.

Do you disagree with the laws of nature here?

Of course not, but I'm not the one claiming there's some supernatural thing am I? Nope, it's you who are disagreeing with the laws of nature.

When did I disagree with the laws of nature?

[Davin]

This god knew what would happen, but according to you made two different plans; one for what he knew would happen (him failing), and a backup one in case what he knew would happen didn't happen. If you don't understand that, I think I could try to make it even more basic.

I never said he made two different plans.

It wasn't me confusing the "plans"...I simply clarified where you are mistaken.

Ok, you didn't say he made "two different plans" but pluralizing it means at least two plans.

The plan is to create humans and for those humans to freely choose Him.  Knowing the humans would fail at following directions, the plan to save the plan, if you will, was planned for before the humans were created in order that the plan not fail.

I thought you just said that you didn't say there were two different plans.

(in essence the PLAN was one plan)

And Adam and Eve fulfilled the PLAN, and got punished for it.

When the plan to make man fly was set into action, did the first plan succeed or fail?

Are you implying that god cannot plan better than man?

IT failed, but not the plan to fly...it progressed and ultimately the plan was fulfilled.

I'd think an all knowing god creating a plan to make man fly could do it on his first attempt... being all knowing and all.

One plan enhanced the other.  While the analogy breaks down as a human continuing effort, the analogy fits in that the PLAN didn't fail.

So they were punished for fulfilling gods PLAN.

So this didn't happen: Gen 3:16-19 NIV

It happened, but as a consequence of sin, not punishment.  The "punishment" (as you say) is really a consequence.  If you put your finger in the flame, you will get burned.  It is both a consequence and a punishment as a result of the immutable properties of fire.

So god didn't say "I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;"? Notice the key words, "I will make", not that he already made it that way or that it will be that way because of what she did, but that he will make it that way. And why? Because she ate the fruit he told her not to eat.

Do you disagree with the laws of nature here?

Of course not, but I'm not the one claiming there's some supernatural thing am I? Nope, it's you who are disagreeing with the laws of nature.

When did I disagree with the laws of nature?

When you believe in the supernatural, you're disagreeing with the laws of nature.

[TheJackel]

Voter and Animated dirt,

Just so you actually know the purpose behind the Fruit of knowledge. It's the sin of seeking out knowledge that may prove the bible and all of it's contents as being nothing more than a fairy tail. It's purpose is to keep it's followers from asking questions, and to keep them from leaving the religion. Hence, do not seek out knowledge..Only believe what is written in the bible and what we tell you to believe! This is the very same structure that people like the Banana Man and the Master videos use. It's the same nonsense you get when you get Creationists vs Science. So it's based on the premise that those that seek knowledge may stop worshiping said GOD and realize it's all made up nonsense. Religions can't have decent from servitude, and neither can your supposed GOD's Ego seem capable dealing with not being worshiped as a GOD.


And if you were actually intelligent in regards to science and how the conscious mind works, temptation, and wright and wrong are all very much natural attributes of the mind. It's actually quite silly to suggest the nonsense either of you are posting. In fact all of your arguments are specifically self invented. Apparently neither you or Voter realize that you are actually formulating your own assertions, ideas, and interpretations as if you actually know a damn thing about what it is you are talking about. You even continue to ignore the actual meaning of Omniscience because neither of you can seem to comprehend it, or understand the consequences of it and why it nullifies even your own self-invented nonsense. Especially in considering so called "PLANS"

So I love how both of you like to run around circles and are completely incapable of dealing with the reality of your arguments being self-inventive and self-collapsing. At best, you have made your so called Deity a Hypocrite of the 10 commandments. It's just simply stupid pleading for ignorance!

[Voter]

You even continue to ignore the actual meaning of Omniscience because neither of you can seem to comprehend it, or understand the consequences of it and why it nullifies even your own self-invented nonsense. Especially in considering so called "PLANS"
[/b]

Jackel, I ignore you because I think there are other atheist regulars here who are better thinkers and writers than you, and more civil.

[AnimatedDirt]

Davin, it is useless, as I see, to discuss with you since you cannot see the difference between a plan within a plan whereby the PLAN is fulfilled and not failed when the rest are put into place to fulfill.  To further substanciate that I'm done with you is your inability or refusal to see that it is not God that failed when He set out to give freewill.  He cannot then dictate what the created is to do if the basic premise is to give FREEWILL.  That means that the created is free to choose.  The "plan(s)" is put into place to then, while the created fails, the Creator still is able to save the created despite the "sold into slavery" sting of sin.  You might need to look that up to get the idea of it.

Until you quit with the "God's plan(s) failed and so punishes..." idea when it is clearly explained to you otherwise, then you and I are through.  You can't understand simple things.

[lookitsaustin]

[spoiler:2dy0fbul]

"Evil," in our ordinary usage of words, is the name of two kinds of manifestations. We often understand by this world anything in general which evokes misfortune and causes suffering. But in a more precise, direct sense, evil is a name for negative manifestations of the moral order which proceed from the evil direction of the will and violation of God's laws.

It is clear that misfortunes in the physical world--for example, earthquakes, storms, floods, landslides, and the rest--are in themselves neither good nor evil. In the general world system they are what shadows are to bright colors in the art of painters, what crude sounds are to soft sounds in music, and so forth. This is the way in which Holy Fathers such as Blessed Augustine and St. Gregory the Theologian treat these manifestations. One cannot deny that such manifestations of the elements are often the cause of misfortunes and sufferings for sensible creatures and for man; but one can only bow down in reverence before the all-wise order of the world, where the endlessly various and mutually opposed strivings on the part of blind elemental powers and organic creatures, which collide with each other at every moment, are in mutual agreement and are brought into harmony, becoming a source of contstant renewal in the world.

To a certain extent, the unpleasant, shadowy sides of our human life make us value and sense more highly the joyful sides of life. But the word of God itself tells us that difficult sufferings, sorrows, and afflictions cannot be acknowledged as manifestations completely in accordance with law and therefore normal; rather, they are a deviation from the norm. The sufferings of the human race began with the appearance of moral evil and are the consequences of sin, which entered into our life at that time. Of this the first pages of the Bible testify: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy sighting; in pain thou shalt bring forth children(the words addressed to Eve after the fall into sin);Cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life (the words spoken to  Adam; Gen 3:16-17). Sufferings are given to man as a means of chastisement, enlightenment, and correction. According to St. Basil the Great, sufferings and death itself "cut off growth of sin." Numerous examples of the awareness of the tie between suffering and sin result of its cause are given to us in the word of God: Lay hold of chastisement, lest at any time the Lord be angry (Ps. 2:12); it is good for me that Thou hast humbled me, that I might learn Thy statutes (Ps. 118:71). Careful observation itself shows that the causes of diseases and sufferings, in the overwhelming majority of cases , are men themselves, who have created artificial and abnormal conditions for their existence, introducing a cruel mutual warfare while chasing after their own egotistic physical well-being; and sometimes these things are the direct result of a certain demonic attitude--pride, revenge, and malice.

As the word of God instructs us, the consequences of moral evil spread from people to the animal world and to the whole of creation: For we know that the whole creation goaneth and travaileth in pain together until now, the Apostle Paul writes, and her further explains: For the creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected it in hope: because the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God (Rom. 8:22, 20-21). It is the consensus of the Holy Fathers that the entire creation was brought into the bondage of corruption through man's sin. Commenting on Romans 8:20, St. John Chrysostom writes "What means, For the creation was made subject to vanity? It became corruptible. Why and by what cause? By your fault, O man. Because you received a body mortal and subject to sufferings, so the earth also was subject to a curse, and brought forth thorns and thistles." Later in the same section, St. John writes: "Just as the creation became corruptible when your body became corruptible, so also when your body will be incorrupt [i.e., after the General Resurrection], the creation also will follow after it and become corresponding to it" (Homilies on Romans, Homily 14.5)

St. Symeon the New Theologian states specifically that the entire earth, and not just Paradise, was created incorrupt. "God did not, as some people think, just give Paradise to our ancestors at the beginning, nor did He make only Paradise incorruptible, No!...The whole world has been brought into being by God as one thing, as a kind of paradise, at once incorruptibel yet material and perceptible" (On the Mystical Life)

The Holy Fathers indicate that evil is not some kind of essence which has any actual independent existence, like the elements and powers of the world which were created by God. St. Diadochus of Photiki: "Evil does not exist by nature, nor is any man naturally evil, for God made nothing that was not good. When in the desire of his heart someone conceives and gives form to what in reality has no existence, then what he desires begins to exist. We should therefore turn our attention away from the inclination to evil and concentrate it on the remembrance of God; for good, which exists by nature, is more powerful than our inclination to evil. The one has existence while the other does not, except when we give it existence through our actions" (Philokalia vol 1). Evil is only a deviation of living beings from that original condition in which the Creator placed them, into a condition which is opposed to this. Therfore, it is not God Who is the cause of moral evil; rahter, it proceeds from creatures themselves, for they have deviated from the agreement of their will with the will of God. The essence of evil consists in the violation of God's will, the commandments of God, and the moral law which is writtin in the human conscience. This violation is called sin.

But from whence did moral evil arise? God created the world pure, perfect, free from evil. Evil entered the world as a consequence of the fall, which occured, according to the word of God, originally in the world of fleshless spirits, and then in the human race, and was reflected in the whole of living nature.

According to the testimony of the word of God, the origin of sin comes from the devil: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devill sinneth from the beginning (I John 3:. The word "devil" means "slanderer." Bringing together the evidence of Sacred Scripture, we see that the devil is one of the rational spirts or angels who deviated into the path of evil. Possessing, like all rational creatures, the freedom which was given him for becoming perfect in the good, he "abode not in the truth" and fell away from God. St John Damascence: "Every rational being is free. The angelic nature, then, insofar as it is rational and intelligent, is free; while, insofar as it is created, it is changeable and has the power to persevere and progress in good or to turn to evil. Although man, by reason of the infirmity of his body, is capable of repentance, the angel, because of his incorporeality, is not" (Exact Exposition 2.3) The Saviour said of him: He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it (John 8:44). He drew the other angels after himself into the fall. In the epistles of the Apostle Jude and the Apostle Peter, we read of the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation (Jude, v. 6; compare with II Peter 2:4)

What was the cause of the fall in the angelic world? From this same Divine Revelation we can conclude that the reason was pride: the beginning of sin is pride, says the son of Sirach (Sir. 10:13). The Apostle Paul, warning the Apostle Timothy against making bishops of those who are newly converted, adds: Lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condmnation of the devil (1 Tim. 3:6).

The evil spirits are mentioned in only a few passages in the Old Testament Revelation. These places are the following: We read of the "serpent," the temer of the first people, in the third chapter of the book of Genesis. The activities of "Satan" in the life of the righteous Job are related in the first chapter of the book of Job. In First Kings it is said concerning Saul that an evil spirit troubled him after the Spirit of the Lord departed from him (I Kings 16:14). In First Paralipomenon (Chronicles), chapter 21, we read that when the thought came to King David to make a census of the people, it was because Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. In the book of the Prophet Zachariah it is said concerning his vision of the chief priest, Joshua, that Joshua was resisted by "the devil" (Zach. 3:1). In the book of the Wisom of Solomon it is said that through the devil's envy death entered the world (Wis. 2:24). Likewise, in Deuteronomy 32:17 it is said: They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; and in Pslam 105:35: And they sacrificed...unto demons.

An incomparably more complete representation of the activity of Satan and his angels is contained in the New Testament Revelation. From it we know that Satan and evil spirts are constantly attracting people to evil. Satan dared to tempt the Lord Jesus Christ Himself in the desert. The evil spirits rush into the souls and even into the bodies of men; of this there is the testimony of many events in the Gospel and of the teachings of the Saviour. Concerning the habitation of evil spirits in men, we know from the numerous healings by the Saviour of the demon-possessed. Evil spirits spy, as it were, on the carelessness of man so as to attract him to evil: When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places seeking rest, and findeth none. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when his come, he findeth it empty, swept and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself and they enter in and dwell there: nd the last state of that man is worse than the first (Matt. 12:43-45). With regard to the healing of the bent woman, the Saviour said to the ruler of the synagogue: And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day? (Luke 13:16).

Likewise, the Sacred Scripture calls evil spirits "unclean spirits," "spirits of evil," "devils," "demons," "angels of the devil," and angels of Satan." Their chief, the devil, is also called the "tempter," "Satan," "Beelzbub," "Belial," the "prince of devils," and other names like "Lucifer" (the morning star).

Taking the form of a serpent, the devil was the tempter and the cause of the fall into sin of the first people, as is related in the third chapter of the book of Genesis. In the Apocalypse he is called the great dragon, that old serpent (Apoc. 12:9)

The devil and his angels are deprived of remaining in the heavenly dwellings of light. I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven, said the Lord to his disciples. (Luke 10:18). Being cast down from the world above, the devil and his servants act in the world under the heaven, among men on earth, and they have taken into their possession, as it were, hell and the underworld. The Apostle calls them principalities, powers, the rulers of the darkness of this world (Eph. 6:12). The devil is the prince of the power of the air (Eph 2:2), and his servants, the fallen angels, are the spirits of wickedness under the heaven (Eph. 6:12).

Why was man's fall into sin possible? The Creator imparted to man three great gifts at his creation: freedom, reason, and love. These gifts are indispensable for the spiritual growth and blessedness of man. But where there is freedom there is the possibility of wavering in one's choice; thus, temptation is possible. The temptation for reason is to grow proud in mind; instead of acknowledging the wisdom and goodness of God, to seek the knowledge of good and evil outside of God; to desire oneself to be a "god." The tempation for the feeling of love is: in place of love for God and one's neighbor, to love oneself and everything that satisfies the lower desires and gives temporary enjoyment. This possibility of temptation and fall stood before mankind, and the first man did not stand firm against it.

Let us make note here of St. John of kronstadt's reflection on this subject. He writes: "Why did God allow the fall of man, his beloved creation and the crown of all the earthly creatures? To this question one must reply thus: If man is not to be allowed to fall, then he cannot be created in the image and likeness of God, he cannot be granted free will, which is inseperable feature of the image of God; but he would have to be subejct to the law of neccessity, like the soulless creation--the sky, the sun, stars, the circle of the earth, and all the elements--or like the irrational animals. But then there would have been no king, over the creatures of hte earth, no rational hymn-singer of God's goodnesss, wisdom, creative almightiness, and Providence. Then man would have had no way to show his faithfulness and devotion to the Creator., his self-sacrificing love. Then there would have been no exploits in battle, no merits, and no incorruptible crowns for victory; there would have been no eternal blessednesss, which is the reward for faithfulness and devotion to God, and no eternal repose after the labors and struggles of our earthly pilgrimage."

The writer of Genesis does not tell us whether our first ancestors lived for a long time in the blessed life of Paradise. Speaking of their fall, he indicates that they did not come to the temptation of themselves, but were led to it by the tempter.

Now the serpent was more subtil than any of the beasts of the earth which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman: Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of Paradise? And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of Paradise: but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of Pradise, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman: Ye shall not surely die. For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also to her husband with her, and he did eat (Gen. 3:1-6)

The Christian Church has always understood the serpent, the tempter, to be the devil, whoo took the form of a serpent as corresponding best to his sneaky, cunning, and poisonous character. Teh clear words of our Lord Himself about the devil confirm this interpretation: He was a murderer from the beginning (John 8:44). In the Apocalypse of John the Theologian he is called the great dragon, that old serpent (Apoc. 12:9). In the book of the Wisdom of Solomon it says: Through the devil's envy death entered the world (Wis. 2:24).

The transgression of our first ancestors was this: Having been tempted by the serpent, they violated the direct commandment of God not to eat of the forbidden tree. The fulfillment of this commandment would have shown obedience to God and trust in His words, as well as humility and continence--a summing up of the simple and natural virtues. The eating of the forbidden fruit immediatley drew after itself the whole sum of lamentable moral and physical consequences.

The eating of the fruit was only the beginning of moral deviation, the first push; but it was so poisonous and ruinous that it was already impossible to return to the previous sanctity and righteousness; on the contrary, there was revealed an inclination to travel farther on the path of apostasy from God. This is seen in the fact that they immediately noticed their nakedness and, hearing the voice of God in Paradise, they hid from Him and, justifying themselves, only increased their guilt. In Adam's replies to God, we see from the beginning his desire to flee from God's sight and an attempt to hide his guilt; we see the untruth in his saying that he had hidden from God only becasue he was naked; and then the attempt at self-justification and the desire to transfer his guilt to another, his wife. Blessed Augustine says: "Here was pride, because man desired to be more under his own authority than under God's; and a mockery of what is holy, because he did not believe God; and murder, because he subjected himself to death; and spiritual adultery, because the immaculateness of the human soul was defiled through the persuasion of the serpent; and theft, because they made use of the forbidden tree; and the love of acquistion, because he desired more than was necessary to satisfy hismelf."

Thus, with the first transgression of the commandment, the principle of sin immediately entered into man--"the law of sin" (nomos tis amartias). It struck the very nature of man and quickly, began to root itself in him and develop. With the entrance of sin, man lost the Grace in which he had been created, Because his nature had become corrupted by sin, Grace was now foreign to it. St. John Damascene writes: "And so, man succumbed to the assualt of the demon, the author of evil; he failed to keep the Creator's commandment and was stripped of Grace and deprived of that familiarity which he had enjoyed with God" (Exact Exposition). Likewise, St. Symeon the New Theologian writes: "When with his soul he (Adam) believed the serpent and not God, then Divine Grace which had rested on him stepped away from him, so that he became the enemy of God by reason of the unbelief which he had shown to His words" (First-Created Man). Of this sinful principle which entered human nature, Apostle Paul wrote: For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not...For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members (Rom. 7:18, 22-23). The sinful inclinations in man have taken the reigning position; man has become the servant of sin (Rom. 6:17). Both the mind and the feelings have become darkened in him, and therefore his moral freedom often does not incline towards the good, but towards evil. Lust and Pride have appeared in the depths of man's impulses to activity in life. Of this we read in I John 2:15-16: Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world...For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. The lust of the flesh is a weakening of the authority of the spirit over the body, a subjection of it to the lower, fleshly desires; the lust of the eyes means the false idols and attachments, greed and hunger for the world, envy; and pride is self-esteem, egoism, self-exaltation, a despising of others who are weaker, love of self, and vainglory.

Contemporary psychological observations also lead investigators to the conclusion that lust and pride (the thirst for being better than others) are chief levers of the strivings of contemporary fallen mankind, even when they are deeply hidden in the soul and are not completely conscious.

The physical consequences of the fall are diseases, hard labor, and death. These were the natural result of the moral fall, the falling away from communion with God, man's departure from God. When man lost the Grace of God, he experienced spiritual death, and this spiritual death made him subject to physical death. Thus, St. Gregory Palamas writes: "It was indeed Adam's soul that died by becoming through his transgression separated from God; for bodily he continued to live after that time, even for 930 years. The death, however, that befell the soul because of the transgression not only crippled the soul and made man accursed; it also rendered the body itself subject ot fatigue, suffering, and corruptibility, and finally handed it over to death" (Philokalia vol. 4). Elsewhere St. Gregory of Palamas expounds further on what is meant by the death of the soul: "Physical death is when the soul leaves the body and is seperated from it. The death of the soul is when God leaves the soul and is separated from it, although in another way, the soul remains immortal. Once separated from God it becomes more ugly and useless than a dead body, but unlike such a body it does not disintegrate after death since it is not composite" (Homilies vol 1). Man became subject to the corrupt elements of the world, in which dissolution and death are active. Nourishment from the Source of Life and from the constant renewal of all one's powers became weak in men. Our Lord Jesus Christ indicated the dependence of illnesses on sin when he healed the paralytic, saying to him: Behold, thou art made whole; sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee (John 5:14).

With sin, death entered into the human race. Man was created immortal in his soul, and he could have reamined immortal also in body if he had not falled away from God. The Wisdom of Solomon says: God did not make death (Wis. 1:13). Man's body, as well expressed by Blessed Augustine, does not possess "the impossibility of dying," but it did possess "the possibility of not dying" was maintained in Paradise by eating the fruit of the Tree of Life, of which our first ancestors were deprived after they were banished from Paradise. As by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned (Rom. 5:12). The Apostle calls death the "wages," that is, the payment or reward for sin: The wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23). St John Damascene: "He [man] was clothed with the roughness of his wretched life--for that is what the fig leaves signify--and put on death, that is to say, the mortality and the grossness of the flesh--for this is what the garment of skins signifies; he excluded from Paradise by the just judgment of God; and was condemned to death and made subject to corruption" (Exact Exposition 3.1).

Physical misfortunes are not only a consequence of sin; at the same time they are chastisments from God, as was revealed in the words of God to our first parents when they were banished from Paradise. It is clear that these chastisements are given as a means of preventing man from a further and final fall.

Concerning the meqaning of labors and diseases in fallen man, St. Cyril of Alexandria says that man, "having received as his lot an exhausting fast and sorrows, was given over to illnesses, sufferings, and the other bitter things of life as to a kind of bridle. Because he did not sensibly restrain himself in that life which was free of labors and sorrows, he was given over to misfourtunes so that by sufferings he might heal in himself the disease which came upon him in the midst of blessedness".

Of death, this same Holy Father says: "By death the Giver of the Law stopped the spread of sin, and in the very chastisement revealed His love for mankind. Inasmuch as He, in giving the cammandment, joined death to the transgression of it, and iasmuch as the criminal thus fell under this chastisment, so He arranged that the chastisement itself might serve for salvation. For death dissolves this animal nature of ours and thus, on the one hand, stops the activity of evil, and on the other delivers a man from illnesses, frees him from labors, puts an end to his sorrows and cares, and stops his bodily sufferings. With such a love for mankind has the Judge mixed the chastisement".

However, the final and most important consequence of sin was not illness and physical death, but the loss of Paradise. This loss of Paradise is the same thing as the loss of the Kingdom of God. In Adam all mankind was deprived of the future blessedness which stood before it, the blessedness which Adam and Eve had partially tasted in Paradise. In other words, the way to deification was barred to man.  In place of the prospect of life eternal, mankind beheld death, and behind it hell, darkness, rejection by God. Therefore, the sacred books of the Old Testament are filled with dark thoughts concerning existence beyond the grave: For in death there is none that is mindful of Thee, and in hades who will confess Thee? (Ps. 6:5). This is not a denial of immortality, but a reflection of the hopeless darkness beyond the grave. Such awareness and sorrow were eased only by the hope of future deliverance through the coming of the Saviour: I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though my skin hath been destroyed, yet in my flesh shall I see God (Job 19:25-26). Therefore did my heart rejoice and my tongue was glad; moreover, my flesh shall dwell in hope. For Thou wilt not abandon my soul in hades, nor wilt Thou suffer Thy Holy One to see corruption (Ps. 15:9-10).

After man's fall into sin, God did not reject man the sinner. He took away from him neither His image, (St. Gregory Palamas writes that the human soul "possesses the image of God inalienably, even if it does not recognize its own dignity, or think and live in a manner worthy of the Creator's image within it. After our forefather's transgression in Paradise thourgh the tree, was suffered the death of our soul--which is the separation of the soul from God--prior to our bodily death; yet although we cast away our divine likeness, we did not lose our divine image. Thus when the soul renounces its attachment to inferior things and cleaves through love to God and subnits itself to Him through acts and modes of virtue, it is illuminated and made beautiful by God and is raised to a higher level, obeying His counsels and exhortations; and by these means it regains the truly eternal life" (Philokalia vol4)) which distinguished him from the animal world, nor the freedom of his will, nor his reason, by which man was capable of understanding spiritual principles, nor his other capabilities. God acted towards him as does a physician and educator: He covered his nakedness with clothing, moderated his self-esteem and pride, his fleshly desires and passions, by means of healing measures--labor and diseases--giving to them an educational significance. We ourselves can see the educational effect of labor, and the cleansing effect of disease on the soul. God subjected man to physical death so as not to hand him over to final spiritual death--that is, so that the sinful principle in him might not develop to the extreme, so that he might not become like Satan.

However, this natural bridle of suffering and death does not uproot the very source of evil. It only restrains the development of evil. It was most necessary for mankind to have a supernatural power and help which might perform an inward reversal within him and give to man the possibility to turn away from a gradually deepening descent and towards victory over sin and a gradual ascent to God. God's Providence foresaw the future fall of man's free will which had not become strong. Foreseeing the fall, He prearranged an arising. Adam's fall into sin was not an absolute perdition for mankind. The power which was to give rebirth, according to God's pre-eternal determination, was the descent to earth of the Son of God.

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TL;DR

[AnimatedDirt]

AnimatedDirt and Voter, I wrote a long piece on Evil a few pages back. May I ask what is your take on that?

**AD's emphasis

Are you the author or an editor of Orthodox Dogmatic Theology?

I will either way still read fully and give you my take.  

[Davin]

Davin, it is useless, as I see, to discuss with you since you cannot see the difference between a plan within a plan whereby the PLAN is fulfilled and not failed when the rest are put into place to fulfill.

It's really very simple: Did god's plan include Adam and Eve eating the fruit he told them not to eat, or is this god not all knowing? Of course there is another option: god knew what they would do, but planned otherwise for no particular reason.

To further substanciate that I'm done with you is your inability or refusal to see that it is not God that failed when He set out to give freewill.

It was your wording, "God didn't "plan" to purposely fail, but knew the outcome." that lead me to think that god failed. It is clear now that you made that statement in error.

He cannot then dictate what the created is to do if the basic premise is to give FREEWILL.

Not talking about dictating, I'm talking about god knowing what they will choose, seems to put everything in place (put the tree in the garden, created the snake to tempt them), so that they would more than just have the opportunity to disobey, but he also engineered their temptation. A temptation of which these people had no knowledge would even exist, not to mention that the talking creature was created by god. Why should they not trust a creation of god, especially without the knowledge of good and evil?

That means that the created is free to choose.

Free to choose something unknown to god?

The "plan(s)" is put into place to then, while the created fails, the Creator still is able to save the created despite the "sold into slavery" sting of sin.  You might need to look that up to get the idea of it.

So Adam and Eve fulfilled that part of the plan that created a world with sin, or are you saying that sin is unnecessary in gods plan?

Until you quit with the "God's plan(s) failed and so punishes..." idea when it is clearly explained to you otherwise, then you and I are through.

Sorry, as explained before, I was going off of your wording.

You can't understand simple things.

I think I've more than demonstrated my ability to understand even very complicated things. Including the simple statement "God didn't "plan" to purposely fail[...]" which implies that god failed but did not plan to. The fault is not on me, but on you. Please refrain from unwarranted personal attacks.

[Davin]

@lookitsaustin: Check out the spoiler tag:

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[spoiler:hh40tvjx]"Evil," in our ordinary usage of words, is the name of two kinds of manifestations. We often understand by this world anything in general which evokes misfortune and causes suffering. But in a more precise, direct sense, evil is a name for negative manifestations of the moral order which proceed from the evil direction of the will and violation of God's laws.

[...][China called, they want their wall back.][/spoiler:hh40tvjx]

TL;DR

[lookitsaustin]

@lookitsaustin: Check out the spoiler tag:

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Genius!    Thank you, I'm still learning this forum. I went ahead and did this to my earlier reply so it would shorten the page.