Why are we here? - Islam

[LegendarySandwich]

It's not that -- it's the fact that the only "evidence" for any religion is subjective. And then there's the fact that's it's all conflicting.

I'll obviously agree on the evidence being subjective. What exactly is conflicting about it?

Most of the modern religions are incompatible with each other. Either one of them is a true, a couple of the compatible ones are true, or none of them are true.

Problem is, there's no giant Book of Dragonkin which gives meaning to the existence of the beast. With the religious books there's at least a point of reference from which you may or may not derive evidence to believe in religion. That evidence would still be subjective of course, but at least it's based on something. If you had put a Dragonkoran in your story, we would've had the same situation we now have with religion: You either do or don't believe in the religion using subjective evidence.

The medium it's in -- written or oral -- doesn't really matter. At the end of the day, they're both asking, or telling, you to believe in something which has no evidence.

Good one. I'm not entirely sure I can answer that, but here goes nothing.. I guess he needed some sort of construct to make sure a human being could advance himself (which is the purpose of our lives here, according to the koran). If he hadn't done it this way, how would people be able to come closer to god? A rupture between two opposing fronts, and freedom of choice to choose between the two was necessary.

Again, why does this have to be so? Why did the other opposing front have to be evil/sin? Why is freedom of choice necessary? Why couldn't we all be as close to God as he wants us without evil?

When you combine omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence, evil should not exist. I don't know of any excuse that makes sense for why there is evil.

Exactly. If you had been a "true christian" after having read the bible and being deeply convinced of the truth therein, there would be no way you would find the bible or the koran boring. It's just a matter of whether you want to find meaning in the bible or not. (Whether you actually do or not is up for debate of course)

That sounds like a No True Scotsman fallacy, but I don't really care. I probably wasn't a "true Christian", which is actually better to me.

[Simonsimon]

Most of the modern religions are incompatible with each other. Either one of them is a true, a couple of the compatible ones are true, or none of them are true.

That's right. But the Koran states that it was the last, final 'product', that the previous books were there because humanity wasn't ready for the final version. iSok will have to correct me on this if I'm mistaken.

The medium it's in -- written or oral -- doesn't really matter. At the end of the day, they're both asking, or telling, you to believe in something which has no evidence.

[/quote]

Ok, I think you have a point here.

When you combine omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence, evil should not exist. I don't know of any excuse that makes sense for why there is evil.

No, it's possible for god to make evil non-existent if he's all those things. He chose for evil to exist so that there could be a difference between good and evil. As to why, I'm not entirely sure if you consider that he could have made it differently (there being no difference between good and evil, yet still a way for people to advance their souls somehow). The koran does state that life should be a struggle, one of freedom of choice and the ability to choose between good and evil. He definitely did all this on purpose. Why, I can't really answer. I'm not god.

Exactly. If you had been a "true christian" after having read the bible and being deeply convinced of the truth therein, there would be no way you would find the bible or the koran boring. It's just a matter of whether you want to find meaning in the bible or not. (Whether you actually do or not is up for debate of course)
That sounds like a No True Scotsman fallacy, but I don't really care. I probably wasn't a "true Christian", which is actually better to me.

Yeah, it's a bit of a fallacy the way I put it. What I meant was, if you had read the bible while looking for (and finding) meaning in it (which would make you a 'true' christian I guess, although yeah that doesn't exist) you would've found the bible to be interesting. But I agree, not a very interesting point.

Anyway, it's getting kinda..eh...early. It's 4:30am. Good think we started this on saturday night...

[iSok]

Hi Isok.  What time is it in Holland? 4am?  

So.  I was thinking about your argument from earlier (which I dont believe was answered:

"By which the angels and the Spirit, ascend to Him in one Day the duration of which is fifty thousand years."[Qur'an 70:4]

Angels are made of light.

Well, im not sure that light can build, talk, sing, think, etc, but lets say for the sake of argument that these beings of light are endowed with abilities through the will of Allah.  Let's run with that.

t’ = (1-v2/c2)-1/2 (t-vx/c2)

where v = speed traveled
c = the speed of light (5.88 x 1012 miles/year)
x = position in space (defined by the equation x2 = c2t2)
t’ and t (single day = 2.7397 x 10-3 years and 50.000 years) are the two differing time perspectives.

Do you know what the answer will be for v (traveled speed by object) if you use those values for t' and t ?
yes indeed, the speed of light. Coincidence?
What that means is that two observers moving at different speeds will perceive time, size, and mass to be different. At speeds such as those traveled by humans in the present age, such differences are negligible.

Not when you travel at the speed of light.

So here we have an elegant equation entailing time perspectives, speed of light. Position in space, etc.  And an excellent question, which is:  

Coincidence?

Well, first let's'see what the English translations of the Qur'an say of Surah 70:4:


Sahih International

The angels and the Spirit will ascend to Him during a Day the extent of which is fifty thousand years.

Muhsin Khan

The angels and the Ruh [Jibrael (Gabriel)] ascend to Him in a Day the measure whereof is fifty thousand years,

Pickthall

(Whereby) the angels and the Spirit ascend unto Him in a Day whereof the span is fifty thousand years.

Yusuf Ali

The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a Day the measure whereof is (as) fifty thousand years:

Shakir

To Him ascend the angels and the Spirit in a day the measure of which is fifty thousand years.

Dr. Ghali

To Him the Angels and the Spirit ascend with difficulty to Him in a Day whereof the determined (length) is fifty thousand years

OK.
So one literal translation of that verse could be 'Angels can travel so fast that an angel can go 50,000 times farther that a human in a day.'  This seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to say if angels existed.  Startlingly straightforward.  No need to wait for the theory of relativity for that one - i would expect angels to have many superhuman qualities, regardless of whether or not they could be inserted into equations -

In truth, I dont know what the probablity of such a coincidence is, but I'm sure it's less that the alternative:  that there really are angels made of light who travel at the speed of light to be Allah's messengers.

What im trying to say, Isok, is that just because these 2 figures show up in holy scripture in the context of travel, it doesnt make it true to say 'well, the Koran must be talking about objective scientific fact.'

Oh, and one more thing:


The Prophet was actually illiterate, most people think he wrote the Qur'an.

A great many people say the Qur'an is a masterpiece.  But does this mean that its words are from the divine?  Why?  Because it says so? Because someone else says so? Whatever you decide the answer is, I'm glad to have made your aquaintance.

Hello there,


Well I'm glad someone finally reacted.
It is indeed 4 am here, I'm desperately waiting for Ls questions to be answered


Well, indeed it can be coincidence.

But when we reflect upon this, it does make us think.

The author choose the value for a day to be 50.000 years.
ïf I were to ask you, to randomly mention a number, what are the chances you will say '50.000'?

What is more weird, is that the whole verse would not make sense, in the way it's written.
'They ascent to Him in one day which is at the length of 50000 years'.

Even 200 years ago, no one would write it down that way.
You need to have knowledge of the theory of relativity, to write it down that way.
It does not say that the angels travel 50.000 times faster than humans.
It tells us that when angels travel, they experience differents in time.
That is the unbelievable thing about it...




Let us reflect this. We see an Arab man making this verse up in the middle of the desert.
It's not just that he had dumb luck by mentioning the EXACT number.
But he also writes it down, probably not even knowing what he says.

for example if he could pick 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, til 100000
The chance that he'd pick 50 000 is 1%. That is just by luck..ok that is a chance.
Well, now he has to write it down in a way that is unknown to him (using the theory of relativity)
even if that's 50% (which I doubt) --> The outcome of probability is 0,5% chance that he could guess this. JUST THIS ONE verse.

The Qur'an gives another staggering 1000 signs. The chance that of all that could be luck is practical equal to zero.
It's not a book of science but a book of signs.
Proof for those who cannot blindly believe, the Qur'an tells continuosly to reason.

Once again, if you add all those verses up which are right.
Then the chance that Muhammad (pbuh) all could have just made this up is more likely less than 0,0000001.
but still, it is a chance...right?

[LegendarySandwich]

When you combine omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence, evil should not exist. I don't know of any excuse that makes sense for why there is evil.

No, it's possible for god to make evil non-existent if he's all those things. He chose for evil to exist so that there could be a difference between good and evil. As to why, I'm not entirely sure if you consider that he could have made it differently (there being no difference between good and evil, yet still a way for people to advance their souls somehow). The koran does state that life should be a struggle, one of freedom of choice and the ability to choose between good and evil. He definitely did all this on purpose. Why, I can't really answer. I'm not god.

I don't think so. I mean, if he's omnibenevolent, then he wants what's best for us. If he's omnipotent and created the universe, then that means he has the power to do whatever he wants. Add in omniscience and that rules out lack of knowledge or foresight. What we're left with is that, logically, we should be perfect creations and evil shouldn't exist. But, obviously, that's far from true. We can either conclude that he's not all powerful, he's not all good (I'd actually consider him downright evil), he made a mistake, or he doesn't exist.

Exactly. If you had been a "true christian" after having read the bible and being deeply convinced of the truth therein, there would be no way you would find the bible or the koran boring. It's just a matter of whether you want to find meaning in the bible or not. (Whether you actually do or not is up for debate of course)

That sounds like a No True Scotsman fallacy, but I don't really care. I probably wasn't a "true Christian", which is actually better to me.

Yeah, it's a bit of a fallacy the way I put it. What I meant was, if you had read the bible while looking for (and finding) meaning in it (which would make you a 'true' christian I guess, although yeah that doesn't exist) you would've found the bible to be interesting. But I agree, not a very interesting point.

Anyway, it's getting kinda..eh...early. It's 4:30am. Good think we started this on saturday night...

It's only 7:40 here.

[theclassicist]

Hi Isok

You said:  

They ascent to Him in one day which is at the length of 50000 years'.

Even 200 years ago, no one would write it down that way.
You need to have knowledge of the theory of relativity, to write it down...

The ancient Greek historians of Aristotle's time (say, fourth century BCE) wrote accounts of the gods parting the waves for Alexander the Great's armies to pass, and that the gods fought on the side of the Delphians against the Persians by throwing boulders at them and sending 2 giant heroes to miraculously appear and fight on the Delphian side.  The Romans practiced divination and ritual before undertaking any serious matter - in one case, when some holy chickens didnt react in the way that an admiral hoped, he had them thrown overboard in disgust - only to lose the battle.  The ancient Celts are reported to have believed in reincarnation, and the education of their priests in the 1st century BCE (including mathematical equations) took about 7 years.  The Tibetan buddhists have a prophecy about iron eagles flying and buddhism coming to the west, and the christians have armfuls of apocalyptic predictions which are part of the reason the US finds the middle east so easy to invade.  Every religion longs for its claims to be fulfilled and every believer longs for his or her beliefs to be verified.

I dont know what the chances are of such coincidences as those in Qur'an 70:4 are of being linked to the theories of space/time - but i do think that the chances of Allah being real are not much different to those that Thor or Apollo being real.

I was brought up in a christian sect that believed they would participate in the return of christ at any moment, and taught at age 5 that i would be given political power in gods new kingdom because of my family's religion.  I think scriptural evidence for beliefs is intriguing, but not a trustworthy source of belief.

Warmly

G.

[Davin]

Nostradamus said a lot of vaguely accurate things as well... If one were to build a calculation around some of the things he said, would you consider that to be evidence that the Qur'an is wrong and that he is right? I'm asking beforehand because I don't want to waste any time if that's not going to convince you.

[LegendarySandwich]

Nostradamus said a lot of vaguely accurate things as well... If one were to build a calculation around some of the things he said, would you consider that to be evidence that the Qur'an is wrong and that he is right? I'm asking beforehand because I don't want to waste any time if that's not going to convince you.

Exactly.

Be careful, though, Davin. We might end up with another Dennis Markuze on our hands if you do that.  

[iSok]

Thanks for replying,


Well, what we believe is that a lot of religions that came, had as source divine inspiration (not all of them).
But people corrupted it for their own benefits, we see these examples through out history.

We regard the Qur'an as the final relevation of God towards mankind.
And He promised that He will keep the Qur'an intact and original (The original Qur'an can still be found).
We as muslims believe that Muhammad (pbuh) was foretold in the Old testament and in the New testament.

Second point is, that it seems that many people regard religion as something backward and evil.
But every historian will agree that whenever the Qur'an was relevated in the year 632.
The Islamic countries paid a HUGE contribution to every field of science in the world. The muslim
countries pioneered on every field (Algebra, Geometry, Chemistry, Physics, Biology, Medecine, Astrophysics an so on..) possible. Read history.

Sadly it's just that the last 100 years, the tide seem to have changed.
Before that, Muslim countries had the leading role.


I'm not afraid to conclude that the Qur'an (divine or not) is probably the Book that has lifted mankind out of the darkness
of backwardness into the light of eternal wisdom. And is by far the book which has inspired so many great people of knowledge.
Ever since it's relevation, it swept as hurricane through out the Islamic world and bringing light, setting up civilizations who contributed a lot to mankind.
And inspired the Muslim world for over 1300 years, uptill the 19th century.
Divine or not, without the Qur'an the world wouldn't be by far as advanced as we see today.

That is maybe the greatest Miracle of the Qur'an, yet no one wants to see it.

[LegendarySandwich]

Thanks for replying,


Well, what we believe is that a lot of religions that came, had as source divine inspiration (not all of them).
But people corrupted it for their own benefits, we see these examples through out history.

We regard the Qur'an as the final relevation of God towards mankind.
And He promised that He will keep the Qur'an intact and original (The original Qur'an can still be found).
We as muslims believe that Muhammad (pbuh) was foretold in the Old testament and in the New testament.

Great, but you still haven't offered any compelling evidence that this is actually true.

Second point is, that it seems that many people regard religion as something backward and evil.
But every historian will agree that whenever the Qur'an was relevated in the year 632.
The Islamic countries paid a HUGE contribution to every field of science in the world. The muslim
countries pioneered on every field (Algebra, Geometry, Chemistry, Physics, Biology, Medecine, Astrophysics an so on..) possible. Read history.

It's a logical fallacy to assume that just because something worked or was good in the past, it will work or is good now.

Sadly it's just that the last 100 years, the tide seem to have changed.
Before that, Muslim countries had the leading role.

So, basically, you just nullified your above argument.

I'm not afraid to conclude that the Qur'an (divine or not) is probably the Book that has lifted mankind out of the darkness
of backwardness into the light of eternal wisdom. And is by far the book which has inspired so many great people of knowledge.
Ever since it's relevation, it swept as hurricane through out the Islamic world and bringing light, setting up civilizations who contributed a lot to mankind.
And inspired the Muslim world for over 1300 years, uptill the 19th century.
Divine or not, without the Qur'an the world wouldn't be by far as advanced as we see today.

I don't think so. Something else besides the Qur'an probably would have inspired people, or maybe they didn't need its inspiration after all.

That is maybe the greatest Miracle of the Qur'an, yet no one wants to see it.

While it may have done some good in the past, it's archaic and out-dated now, and the world has no use for it.

Also, this is an appeal to consequences fallacy.

[Whitney]

iSok,

First, welcome to HAF, we truly are glad to have someone from a different point of view visit.

However, We have a rule against preaching which I could have brought down on you quite a few posts ago.  Perhaps you simply don't understand how to differentiate between preaching (saying things without proof based on opinion) verses fact/evidence (making an argument and supporting it objectively).

While I have a soft spot for Muslims considering the recent uproar in many trying to label you all as terrorists that soft spot is quickly hardness by mindless preaching. I know Muslims are capable of deep thought, I've had more than one Muslim friend.

If you are too busy with school to offer a thoughtful response I suggest that you choose to bow out of current discussions till after you have more time to reply thoughtfully.  Much, if not all, of what you have said so far is the standard regurgitated arguments many of us have already heard in the past and which fall short once scrutinized.  I think we all would learn more if you were able to have time to use your own thoughts and words rather than having to spill out what has been taught to you by other mortal humans.

Thanks....oh, and please read the forum rules because if you don't take in the above advice I'll start enforcing them

[Tom62]

Most of the modern religions are incompatible with each other. Either one of them is a true, a couple of the compatible ones are true, or none of them are true.

That's right. But the Koran states that it was the last, final 'product', that the previous books were there because humanity wasn't ready for the final version. iSok will have to correct me on this if I'm mistaken.

The Mormons would disagree with that statement, because their holy book was written after the Koran. Does that make the Book of Mormon more valid than the Koran? Of course not. For the same reason we cannot assume that the Koran is better than the Bible (or the Bible better than the Torah), just because it was written later.

[Asmodean]

The Islamic countries paid a HUGE contribution to every field of science in the world. The muslim
countries pioneered on every field (Algebra, Geometry, Chemistry, Physics, Biology, Medecine, Astrophysics an so on..) possible. Read history.

Past tense. Would muslims in a similar situation today go out of their way to preserve scientific progress? Are muslim countries today [in general] on the cutting edge of science and technology..?

History is good and well, but living in a dream of former glory only gets you this far. (And "this", in this context, is not far at all)

[iSok]

Hello all of you,

Yes I am kind of busy with my current studies.
I'll try to post now and then if I have time left.

Once again, what are my intentions?

I would like to learn why atheists think there's no God
second, in the very least I would like to make some of you doubt about their choice.
So let's all be open minded and use our common sense. There are many arguments going to follow, and I will explain each
I didn't read the forum rules so far.
For as far as I know --> Preaching: Calling to one's religion by quoting verses which contain NO proof.
I did that once, one post to show the people here that the Qur'an speaks about Signs.
Hence, I will read the rules and will defend each argument give.


About the book of Mormons or Nostradamus.

Let me tell you this, if you find one human being that is full of lies.
Do you generalise that all of them must be liars?
By common sense we know that the truth is there, so we have to find it.

If there was ONE contradiction in the Qur'an it would make me doubt severely.
But there isn't. I can't proof to you that there isn't.
But if you can find it, then share it here.


Nostradamus made mistakes at first.
His prophecies are very vague 'there will be two towers on fire'
Everyone now think that that is 9/11.
So if a book or a person contains just ONE error that is proof that it's human written.
So I challenge you to find an error in the Qur'an.


What I want to say, we are discussing about the Qur'an here.
If you see something (the verse I gave about the speed of light) and you don't have an answer because it may have shocked you?
You just assume 'Well nostradamus did that too!'. Like I said he made mistakes and second his prophecies are very vague.

I will continue my posts, but let us stay on the subject.
Probably the only answer someone is going to give me about the above verse that it was coincidence.
He had a chance of 0,5% if he just guessed (I gave my calculation).
Yet I will continue giving more and more proof.

If any of you want to contact me through PM, please then do so.

[hackenslash]

I would like to learn why atheists think there's no God

Well, then the first thing you should learn is that they don't. Some atheists do, but the vast majority simply don't accept the claims of believers.

second, in the very least I would like to make some of you doubt about their choice.

It isn't a choice. I don't choose to find the evidence for the existence of a deity uncompelling, it simply is uncompelling, and conspicuous by its absence.

So let's all be open minded

In the words of Pat Condell, being called closed-minded by a theist is like being called yellow by a bunch of bananas. In any event, there's such a thing as being so open-minded that your brains fall out.

and use our common sense.

No, thanks. Common sense is a very poor guide to reality, as demonstrated beautifully by Relativity and Quantum Mechanics.

There are many arguments going to follow, and I will explain each

We'd much rather you provided evidence, rather than arguments. Unless, of course, you erroneously think that arguments are evidence?

[iSok]

A wikipedia link for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

The Canon of Medecine, completed by ibn Sina in 1050, was still used in the 19th century in Europe.

Professor John Urquhart:

"If the year were 1900 and you were marooned and in need of a guide for practical medicine, which book would you want by your side?" My choice was Ibn Sina. A leading reason is that Ibn Sina gives an integrated view of surgery and medicine, whereas Osler largely shuns intervention. Ibn Sina, for example, tells how to judge the margin of healthy tissue to take with an amputation, a basic topic uncovered by Osler. The gap between medicine and surgery is now closing, with the advent of interventional cardiology, gastroenterology, radiology, etc. Ibn Sina correctly saw medicine and surgery as one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Canon_of_Medicine