The Mesopotamian Flood Story

[theclassicist]

I want to find out what people think of this.  Its an excerpt from the flood myth in the Epic of Gilgamesh, which is from sometime between 3,000 BCE and 2,000 BCE.
It's startlingly similar to the OT story of Noah's Ark, but the story has a few differences (oh, and the hero isnt Noah, its Utnapishtim:

'So the gods agreed to exterminate mankind.  Enlil did this, but Ea because of his oath warned me in a dream.  He whispered their words to my house of reeds...'Tear down your house, I say and build a boat.  These are the measurements of her barque as you shall build her: let her beam equal her length, let her deck be roofed like the vault that covers the abyss; then take up into the boat the seed of all living creatures.'
When I had understood I said to my lord 'behold, all that you have commanded i will honour and perform, but how shall i answer the people, the city, the elders?'. Then Ea opened his mouth and said to me, his servant, 'Tell them all this, i have learnt that Enlil is wrathful against me, i dare no longer walk in his land or live in his city; i will go down to the gulf to dwell with Ea my lord...
On the fifth day I laid the keel...the ground space was one acre, each side of the deck measured 120 cubits, making a square.  I built six decks below, seven in all...on the seventh day the boat was complete...
...the Rider of the storm sent down the rain.  I looked out at the weather and it was terrible...I handed the tiller to Pazur-Amurri the steersman, with the navigation and the care of the whole boat.
With the first light of dawn a black cloud came from the horizon; it thundere
d within where Adad, lord of the storm was riding.  In front, over hill and plain Shullat and Hanish, heralds of the storm, led on.  Then the gods of the abyss rose up; Nergal pulled out the dams of the nether waters, Nunurta the war-lord threw down the dykes, and the seven judges of hell, the Annunaki, raised their torches, lighting the land with their livid flame.  A stupor of despair went up to heaven when the god of the storm turned daylight to darkness...even the gods were terrified at the flood..when the seventh day dawned the storm from the south subsided...
...Fourteen leagues distant there appeared a mountain, and there the boat grounded; on the mountain of Nisir the boat held fast...when the seventh day dawned i loosed a dove and let her go.  She flew away, but finding no resting place she returned.  Then i loosed a swallow, and she flew away, but finding no resting place she returned.  I loosed a raven, she saw that the waters had retreated, she ate, she flew around, she cawed, and she did not come back.
...Thus the gods took me and placed me here to live at the mouth of the rivers'

So what do people think about different cultures having the same myth, but with different characters and theological standpoints?

[Achronos]

Since alot of cultures and traditions have the same narrative (even the Mayans, I think [wil have to research this again] had a similar ark story) kind of leads me to believe the event occured in history. Compared to the Genesis account, basically Genesis is a book the demythologizes certain myths and traditions going on at the time. Whoever authored it is saying that God is doing this rather than gods or some other interpretation.

But the Flood story itself prefigures Christ, so that holds more meaning to me than if it was a factual account or if it derived itself from a cultural source. It's an interesting passage you show, but you have a link to that?

[theclassicist]

Hmmm..interesting what you said about the Mayans having a flood myth.  Looked it up.  Maya Creation Myths at www.crystalinks.com says:
'The Popol Vuh, the sacred book of the Maya, contains within its creation story a tale of the destruction of the first beings by a flood. This flood differs from others in that it is not a punishment, but rather a remedy for a faulty creation. The Feathered Serpent first created man from mud. These creatures were a failure; they couldn't see, they dissolved when it rained, etc. So the god broke them up and tried again. "This time he made men out of wood. They were better than the mud-men. They could walk and talk; they had many children, built many houses, but they had no minds nor souls nor hearts. The Feathered Serpent - Quetzalcoatl was disappointed with what he had created, so he sent a great flood to cleanse the earth of his mistake. '

Clearly, this story has none of the correlative details of the Mesopotamian myth and the biblical one.  The only things in common are a flood and that one of the gods decided it should be so.

Im much more interested in how you would explain the similarity of the stories of the middle east, with different characters and gods.  


Besides, accepting the Mayan myth in argument entails believing in a worldwide flood, and that the descendents of Noah/Utnapishtim travelled to South America sometime after it.

So much for the Mayans.  But in what sense is the OT demythologising anything?  Havent you said before you believe in only some of the bible, and therefore see it all as potential myth?

I havent got instant messenger or anything, but thanks for the offer, ill look into it.

Oh, and what do you mean 'prefigures'?  Sounds to me that you see if you see the OT as a literary work, there really isnt much stopping you from considering the NT as an extension of that literary work.

Best wishes

I really do like this forum.  It's so much more civilised than the one with the baying masses on the Richard Dawkins site.

[theclassicist]

It's an interesting passage you show, but you have a link to that?

I actually misread this as 'have you a link to chat' (i really must stop being on this forum at 6am...)
The answer is no, its from a book (yes, i can hear the gasping and 'well i never's from here')
Its called 'the epic of gilgamesh', penguin classics, translation and introduction by NK Sandars, 1972 edition.  It really is excellent and you are free to borrow it since you only live down the road.

[The Magic Pudding]

So it rained everywhere on earth for 40 days and nights, but where did the water come from, and where did it go?
Did god point his [strike:38ay599c]heavy[/strike:38ay599c] deity duty hair-dryer at the poles to cause the rain?
I don't know how he got the water back to the poles so quick though.
My theory is he put a big balloon in the ocean and tied it down with god string.
To compensate for the displaced water he sucked water into balloons in the sky, you can call them clouds.
Then he did his forty days and nights thing, and oceans rose.
When he was sure everything was good and drowned, he poked a hole in his ocean balloon allowing sea levels to fall.
I'm planning an expedition to find remnants of the lost balloons, if anyone wants to contribute just let me know.
I wonder if I could get a job at Ark Park.

[Voter]

Here's a very long list of flood accounts.

[Davin]

Here's a very long list of flood accounts.

So that's how many people not mentioned in the bible that received divine revelation to build a boat because of a huge world ending flood? I mean wasn't the bible pretty clear that eight people were the only righteous ones worth saving?

What sounds more reasonable to me is that some floods happened, people over exaggerated a flood into a world wide event (despite no one from then actually knowing how big the world was or how much water it would take to do so), and let cook for several centuries/millennia.

[Velma]

Here's a very long list of flood accounts.

So that's how many people not mentioned in the bible that received divine revelation to build a boat because of a huge world ending flood? I mean wasn't the bible pretty clear that eight people were the only righteous ones worth saving?

What sounds more reasonable to me is that some floods happened, people over exaggerated a flood into a world wide event (despite no one from then actually knowing how big the world was or how much water it would take to do so), and let cook for several centuries/millennia.

This.  Floods happen everywhere, stories get told about the local flood, as time passes the story gets more and more exaggerated, and eventually it is a world wide flood.  Throw in the question of why the flood happened and it becomes a warning or judgment sent by the local deity or deities.

[Voter]

Here's a very long list of flood accounts.

So that's how many people not mentioned in the bible that received divine revelation to build a boat because of a huge world ending flood? I mean wasn't the bible pretty clear that eight people were the only righteous ones worth saving?

You seem to be ignorant of Genesis. After the flood, all people were descended from Noah, and all lived in the same place. So, they all had knowledge of the flood. After the tower of Babel, God scattered the people around the world and confused their languages. Then, the flood account was modified over time in each culture, and lost in some. So, the ubiquity of flood legends is consistent with Genesis.

What sounds more reasonable to me is that some floods happened, people over exaggerated a flood into a world wide event (despite no one from then actually knowing how big the world was or how much water it would take to do so), and let cook for several centuries/millennia.

I find it hard to accept that flood myths arose independently in so many cultures, including many where flooding was not a real threat.

[Davin]

Here's a very long list of flood accounts.

So that's how many people not mentioned in the bible that received divine revelation to build a boat because of a huge world ending flood? I mean wasn't the bible pretty clear that eight people were the only righteous ones worth saving?

You seem to be ignorant of Genesis. After the flood, all people were descended from Noah, and all lived in the same place. So, they all had knowledge of the flood. After the tower of Babel, God scattered the people around the world and confused their languages. Then, the flood account was modified over time in each culture, and lost in some. So, the ubiquity of flood legends is consistent with Genesis.

You seem to be ignorant of when the stories can be verified vs. when the earliest copy of Genesis can be verified. Another thing you seem to be ignorant on is the cultures that existed outside of what the bible talks about, cultures that predate the bible, cultures with their own history and fairy tales.

What sounds more reasonable to me is that some floods happened, people over exaggerated a flood into a world wide event (despite no one from then actually knowing how big the world was or how much water it would take to do so), and let cook for several centuries/millennia.

I find it hard to accept that flood myths arose independently in so many cultures, including many where flooding was not a real threat.

What you have difficulty accepting does not matter to me. Floods happened pretty much everywhere, even where I am in a desert it's not too many years between floods. People very often exaggerate. People get things wrong and people make things up to fill in gaps. All these things are common and do happen. I do not see how anyone can deny that these things are common occurrences.

What is uncommon, what is extraordinary and requires extraordinary evidence, is a world wide flood. For which there is no supporting evidence.

[history_geek]

There atually was an interesting documentary about this a little while back.

The basic conclusion of it was that the "world flood" might be an event that happned in stone age, at Black Sea. Actually, it was the birth of the Blacl Sea. You can find a more detailed explenation about it in here.

In the documentry they concluded that
a) there was evidence that the Black Sea was formed in a large flood like event that without a doubt effected all the people in the area.
b) there was evidence of stone age habitaion in the are where this all happened.

Also, I couldn't find any vids about it, but there was this blog that tells about the program.

Oh, and Atlantis? Ever heard about Santorini?

[youtube:231q4wl2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5jUJh42qYE[/youtube:231q4wl2]

[youtube:231q4wl2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR9BjZcInr0[/youtube:231q4wl2]

[youtube:231q4wl2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-qEMwZu2eI[/youtube:231q4wl2]

[youtube:231q4wl2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRIXMxA4UxI[/youtube:231q4wl2]

[youtube:231q4wl2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHJ7n4whPjw[/youtube:231q4wl2]

[theclassicist]

Voter wrote:

I find it hard to accept that flood myths arose independently in so many cultures, including many where flooding was not a real threat.

'What then are the origins of a political society and how does it first come into being?  From time to time, as a result of floods, plagues, failures of crops or other similar causes, there occurs a catastrophic destruction of the human race, in which all knowledge of the arts and social institutions is lost.  Such disasters, tradition tells us, have often befallen mankind, and must reasonably be expected to recur.  Then in the course of time the population renews itself from the survivors as if from seeds, men increase once more in numbers and, like other animals, proceed to form herds.'
Polybius, On the Forms of States, from his book 'The Rise of the Roman Empire'.
Oddly enough, this was written not in modern times, but in the 2nd Century BCE.

 I'm really impressed by the level of debate my first topic has produced.

[hackenslash]

After the flood,

Which, by the way, never happened.

all people were descended from Noah, and all lived in the same place.

That would be a bit problematic, since that would constitute a catastrophic (i.e. terminal) population bottleneck, in which diversity would be reduced beyond the ability of the species to survive beyond a few generations, as all alleles would very rapidly go to fixation, and you'd end up with duelling banjos in short order and extinction not long after that. A brief perusal of the scientific literature regarding minimum viable population should be enough to knock that nonsense on the head.

So, they all had knowledge of the flood. After the tower of Babel, God scattered the people around the world and confused their languages. Then, the flood account was modified over time in each culture, and lost in some. So, the ubiquity of flood legends is consistent with Genesis.

What they aren't consistent with, however, is reality.

I have a question:

What were the Egyptians doing digging canals when they were under 9 km of water?

[hackenslash]

What is uncommon, what is extraordinary and requires extraordinary evidence, is a world wide flood. For which there is no supporting evidence.

It's worse than that. There is overwhelming evidence falsifying the idea of a global flood, not least in the form of the cichlid fish populations in lakes Victoria, Malawi and Tanganyika. The fact that they even exist makes the idea of a global flood laughable in the extreme, as they simply couldn't survive such an event, yet there they are.

There is a wealth of other evidence as well.

If you want to research some of that, as well as being subject to one of the most truly hilarious threads in the history of internet fora, allow me to introduce you to the Great Flud Debate Peanut Gallery Thread from the, now sadly defunct, Richard Dawkins forum.

WARNING: This is 8,611 posts of some mind-numbing stupidity, along with some genuinely side-splitting but informative rebuttals. If you have the stomach for it, you should settle down with a bottle of your favourite tipple and enjoy.

Edit: The link in the OP of the peanut gallery thread is broken, so here's a link to the actual debate.

[Davin]

Thanks, hackenslash, I've never come across an actual debate on the matter, just lots of unrelated information the shows that there could not have been a world wide flood, let alone one about 4000 years ago. I'll be reading through that debate.