Are there any black atheists?

[Chandler M Bing]

It's true I've noticed that too. Atheism seems to be more of a white thing, like beans on toast or conquering foreign lands for some manufactured purpose or other. Black folks tend to perceive deep meaning in things, and are, I guess, more inclined to not take things simply on face value. Educational level (whatever that means, usually it boils down to just learning other people's ideas and long words when short ones usually suffice) doesn't seem to make much difference. Look at Louis Farrakhan. He's extremely intelligent and well spoken and could easily wipe the floor with many a smartass, yet he obviously is a theist. It's a myth that educational level has much to do with whether one is an atheist or theist, or that people with dark skin are dumb, as is so often insinuated. It's also a myth that "education" makes you intelligent. I've come across many "educated" people who are just as dumb as some non "educated" people. The only difference is that they express their stupidity and childishness with longer words.

While I agree with the rest of your post, I don't think that black people tend to be theists more because they "tend to perceive deep meaning in things" and "more inclined to not take things simply on face value." Like others have said numerous times, it's probably because of the black society surrounding them that usually keeps them from abandoning their faith. Of course, I'm not black, so I can't really say for sure.

Possibly. But theism has been a strong influence in many societies, yet atheists are mostly white. I just think that that there are probably other aspects of black culture (and asian, and hispanic, and others) that makes them predisposed to believe. Atheists seem to be mainly northern european / american. It's a very (northern)eurocentric / anglosaxon thing. So overall, culture, not education, plays the biggest part. And theistic / spiritual concepts are vey deeply ingrained within language. If you wanted to make us all atheists, you'd probably have to influence language and culture, because education, in my view, has very little to do with it. I'd say I'm quite well educated and well spoken and quite well read, and I'd like to think that I'm reasonaly intelligent, yet I'm a theist. It's quite arrogant to assume (not that I think you're saying it) that well educated people are somehow more intelligent than non educated peple, or that atheists are brighter.

[Persimmon Hamster]

Possibly. But theism has been a strong influence in many societies, yet atheists are mostly white. I just think that that there are probably other aspects of black culture (and asian, and hispanic, and others) that makes them predisposed to believe.

Here's a claim I might make.  Feel free to attack it.

Sitting around and pondering philosophical ideas, or really any ideas, at length is what I would call a luxury.  If you have plenty of other immediate concerns (such as meeting basic needs) you are unlikely to have much time to spend on such pondering.

If you are unlikely to ponder, what will your belief system be?  I would venture to guess it would be whatever you were brought up to believe, because you trust your upbringing and lack the luxury of considering other alternatives.

What might prevent you from enjoying this luxury?

First, it is helpful to have freedom.  Freedom is often fairly well approximated in a democracy.  Is it not often said that the first great philosophers were the Greeks, because they were among the first to manage a well-established society offering enough democracy and freedom by which they could afford this luxury?

Would most African-Americans tell you that currently feel like they have significant freedom?  Would most "blacks" elsewhere in the world?  Which is closely tied to the next point:

It is also quite helpful to have your basic needs met.  You know, so you aren't working 2 jobs all day, or spending all of your time budgeting out how to support your children and your family.  Etc.  I would say one way to achieve this is to maintain a standing fairly well above the poverty line.

Is there reason to believe African-Americans have a harder time staying above the poverty line?
http://www.npc.umich.edu/poverty/#4

Finally, here is another, related idea.  Maybe African-Americans are still acclimating to their relatively new sense of "equal rights" (though again, I doubt most would tell you they feel this has been fully achieved--they've yet to overcome many prejudices despite the election of a mixed race President).  Enduring their historical struggle in this country, and coming this far under a system of oppression, surely required a network of support and a feeling of cohesion among themselves as a people.  Christianity helped give them hope in the darkest of hours, and helped unite them; they made it this far with it.

Perhaps African-Americans simply have not yet had enough time to rise up out of the poverty that was forced upon them over 2+ centuries and still is, break with their traditions of the past, and enjoy their greater "luxury" for hypothesizing about abstract concepts.

Just some other ideas to consider.

[LegendarySandwich]

It's true I've noticed that too. Atheism seems to be more of a white thing, like beans on toast or conquering foreign lands for some manufactured purpose or other. Black folks tend to perceive deep meaning in things, and are, I guess, more inclined to not take things simply on face value. Educational level (whatever that means, usually it boils down to just learning other people's ideas and long words when short ones usually suffice) doesn't seem to make much difference. Look at Louis Farrakhan. He's extremely intelligent and well spoken and could easily wipe the floor with many a smartass, yet he obviously is a theist. It's a myth that educational level has much to do with whether one is an atheist or theist, or that people with dark skin are dumb, as is so often insinuated. It's also a myth that "education" makes you intelligent. I've come across many "educated" people who are just as dumb as some non "educated" people. The only difference is that they express their stupidity and childishness with longer words.

While I agree with the rest of your post, I don't think that black people tend to be theists more because they "tend to perceive deep meaning in things" and "more inclined to not take things simply on face value." Like others have said numerous times, it's probably because of the black society surrounding them that usually keeps them from abandoning their faith. Of course, I'm not black, so I can't really say for sure.

Possibly. But theism has been a strong influence in many societies, yet atheists are mostly white. I just think that that there are probably other aspects of black culture (and asian, and hispanic, and others) that makes them predisposed to believe. Atheists seem to be mainly northern european / american. It's a very (northern)eurocentric / anglosaxon thing. So overall, culture, not education, plays the biggest part. And theistic / spiritual concepts are vey deeply ingrained within language. If you wanted to make us all atheists, you'd probably have to influence language and culture, because education, in my view, has very little to do with it. I'd say I'm quite well educated and well spoken and quite well read, and I'd like to think that I'm reasonaly intelligent, yet I'm a theist. It's quite arrogant to assume (not that I think you're saying it) that well educated people are somehow more intelligent than non educated peple, or that atheists are brighter.

You basically just agreed with what I said -- that culture plays the biggest role in what you believe. I don't think that education has nothing to do with it, but I think it's largely what kind of ideas/ideologies/whatever you want to call them that you were raised with, and whether you question or be skeptical of your beliefs. Many ideas are so ingrained into our minds that they're very hard to question, much less get rid of.

EDIT: I think Persimmon has a very good point. Regardless of whether or want or know how to question the beliefs you've been fed since childhood, if you can't, i.e. don't have enough free time, then you won't.

[Ultima22689]

I believe I have pointed that I have just recently returned to Chicago. I am a black atheist as i'm sure i've pointed out several times however there appears to be a newcomer so i'll point it out again. I'd like to point out that education plays a VERY strong role. Recently an old friend came to town, he's a real good friend of mine but he was raised in one of those less savory homes, his parents are like 31 and he's 19, going on 20 very soon. This was my first time meeting his family and these are the people that white America is afraid of. Good people but just in an unfortunate spot. I suppose I give off the air of being an intellectual. They picked up on this and and asked me whether I believe in god or not which is a common question when you're black and talking to other blacks if the level of education reaches such a high disparity. Schools in the hood suck, period. I had to explain that the planets are not made from stars, I had to explain how chimpanzees, gorillas, etc are just as evolved as we are and the whole common ancestor thing, basically I had to correct alot of stuff and ended up explaining everything down from the big bang to abiogenesis and of course evolution. I had to explain the difference between a scientific theory and a theory, I basically went through a whole crash course on science. They were genuinely interested and didn't berate me for not believing. Note that there was several pistols, four bricks of weed, two automatic weapons, and other very illegal things on the table. Yes, these are the scary people but they are were just as curious as any other person and even open minded.  

Education isn't the only issue but it's a major one. Other minorities have their faith derived from tradition, blacks have it derived from a lack of education, general poor quality of life due to having been slaves less than 150 or so ago, did you know the first black millionaires only retired in like the past ten or so years? People don't see it but no matter how well some blacks are doing the race as a whole is still recovering from a history of fail and it shows in the culture, the quality of life and other things. Back in school, all my life, since I was in preschool, people thought it was unheard of that I could read and that only intensified as I got older, most of my peers could barely read well while I was raging at how horrible it was to have to listen to so many people read. The teacher used to pick me to read several times in a row because of how horrible it was for my peers in general, this is rather common and it's sad, there was always a few kids who could not read at all. How many of you who are white can think of at least 20 or so people who could not read at all in high school?

[gsaint]

I would like to answer the other side of the equation. My life is much different from Ultima22689, I am a black woman and I am a strong theist. I come from the middle class. I grew up around blacks, whites, and Hispanics. No hood the black people I knew were middle class Americans. My mother has a bachelors degree and taught science in middle school and high school. My sister and I went to college and we both graduated with degrees and we are married to men with degrees. I only know the hood of Houston becasue that is where my family live. I don't believe in God becasue someone told me to but becasue I met God. I have and had a lot of time to think about these things and ponder other religions and my conclusion has been and will always be there is a God and his name is Jesus.

Now this isn't about Black thesis so I would say that there are some Black atheist out there that just don't claim to be one. If you look at their life and you looked at an atheist life they would be no different. Like Persimmon Hamster stated they may not sit around and ponder weither or not there is a spiritual side to life. Still if you asked them they may say no I don't believe in a god or what does god have to do with my life or there may be a god or their may not be a god but I haven't seen any proof to one. I guess if you really want to know get on an African American forum and ask how many believe in God.

[lundberg500]

I have and had a lot of time to think about these things and ponder other religions and my conclusion has been and will always be there is a God and his name is Jesus.

Gsaint, Really? Is this an educated conclusion or one that just "feels" right? Is everyone else in your family Christian too? I have taken years to make this decision and I can honestly say that it was an educated decision. I have no idea the exact number of books I have read on the issue of the existence of Jesus. I have even taken it so far as to learn the history surrounding this time during the first and second century CE. Most of my history books are about that period. I can say, without a doubt, that Jesus did not exist as a physical person. There is no evidence to support it. Does the story of Jesus really make sense to you as an intelligent person?

Do you truly believe that Jesus:

1. Cast out demons
2. Healed the sick, blind, and deaf
3. Walked on water
4. Raised the dead
5. Fed thousands with little food
6. Died, resurrected, and floated up to heaven

Do you truly believe in supernatural things such as angels, devils, and holy spirits?

If you really believe in these things then your education has had no influence at all on your decision. I will never understand how an intelligent, logical, and reasonable person could ever decide that all these supernatural things are real to them.

[Tank]

I would like to answer the other side of the equation. My life is much different from Ultima22689, I am a black woman and I am a strong theist. I come from the middle class. I grew up around blacks, whites, and Hispanics. No hood the black people I knew were middle class Americans. My mother has a bachelors degree and taught science in middle school and high school. My sister and I went to college and we both graduated with degrees and we are married to men with degrees. I only know the hood of Houston becasue that is where my family live. I don't believe in God becasue someone told me to but becasue I met God. I have and had a lot of time to think about these things and ponder other religions and my conclusion has been and will always be there is a God and his name is Jesus.

Now this isn't about Black thesis so I would say that there are some Black atheist out there that just don't claim to be one. If you look at their life and you looked at an atheist life they would be no different. Like Persimmon Hamster stated they may not sit around and ponder weither or not there is a spiritual side to life. Still if you asked them they may say no I don't believe in a god or what does god have to do with my life or there may be a god or their may not be a god but I haven't seen any proof to one. I guess if you really want to know get on an African American forum and ask how many believe in God.

Closed mind, nuff said.

[Cycel]

I moved to australia this year but I was born and raised in america. I can tell you the issue is not an intellectual issue but an issue of culture.The black church has taken credit for nearly every civil rights advancement in the black american community, They are the most vocal about community outreach,and they take credit for any moral advances. The church is seen as the pillar of the community. In a minority community any deviation from the group is frowned upon because the group already feels marginalized. One must also take into account the indoctrination of christianity into the slave community. Slaves felt that only the christian god could save them from their plight which is ironic considering what the bible has to say about the issue of owning people..... in short most black atheists especially females keep silent about their atheist because of the social pressures. No one I know wants to be the minority within the minority.

Wow!  That's the best explanation I have ever heard.  I'm adopting your point of view.

[Cycel]

I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier but Oprah Winfrey left Christianity for New Age Deism didn't she? Not an atheist, but still, that takes some guts, right? I mean, the Christians have been blasting her ever since.

Oprah has made much of Eckhart Tolle's book, A New Earth, which a friend of mine assures me is Buddhism in disguise.  My friend is a student of a Buddhist teacher and the class, she says, has used Tolle's book in their studies.  If she manages to open the minds of Christians to other possibilities then more power to her.

[Inevitable Droid]

How many of you who are white can think of at least 20 or so people who could not read at all in high school?

In my high school, which was a private one, everyone could read.  In my entire life, the only people I've ever met who couldn't read were black and also very poor.

Does black culture encourage education?

[Ultima22689]

How many of you who are white can think of at least 20 or so people who could not read at all in high school?

In my high school, which was a private one, everyone could read.  In my entire life, the only people I've ever met who couldn't read were black and also very poor.

Does black culture encourage education?

No, it doesn't. There seems to be a vibe of anti-intellectualism among black youth, especially among males.

[Tank]

How many of you who are white can think of at least 20 or so people who could not read at all in high school?

In my high school, which was a private one, everyone could read.  In my entire life, the only people I've ever met who couldn't read were black and also very poor.

Does black culture encourage education?

No, it doesn't. There seems to be a vibe of anti-intellectualism among black youth, especially among males.

I think that to speculate that black culture discourages education is a brave thing to say given there a so many black people living across the whole of society. Is there really a 'black culture'? I ask this question as a 51yo Englishman who hasn't been in America long enough to understand the reality of the situation. What is 'black culture'? Does it exist? How does it manifest itself? I really am interested to discuss this as a forum is about the only place one can discuss this sort of thing.

[Ultima22689]

How many of you who are white can think of at least 20 or so people who could not read at all in high school?

In my high school, which was a private one, everyone could read.  In my entire life, the only people I've ever met who couldn't read were black and also very poor.

Does black culture encourage education?

No, it doesn't. There seems to be a vibe of anti-intellectualism among black youth, especially among males.[/quote]
I think that to speculate that black culture discourages education is a brave thing to say given there a so many black people living across the whole of society. Is there really a 'black culture'? I ask this question as a 51yo Englishman who hasn't been in America long enough to understand the reality of the situation. What is 'black culture'? Does it exist? How does it manifest itself? I really am interested to discuss this as a forum is about the only place one can discuss this sort of thing.[/quote]

It's hard to describe but yes there is, it's more like tiers of black culture. These tiers reflect the quality of life of X people, it's hard to describe because each is somewhat isolated. For example, Gsaint describes growing up in a middle class family surrounded by a integrated community. It won't vary much more than any other culture in America held by the middle class. They send their kids to school, they do great, succeed in life, live the American Dream, etc. Then there is where I grew up. I lived my entire childhood in inner city Chicago, i'm surrounded by the culture that's commonly portrayed in media. You know, that whole gangster thing, except without all the romanticizing that media spins on it. My family was middle class as well so my parents exposed me to a lot of different things the best they could and the household is pretty secular, my brother is agnostic while my parents are the garden variety Christians that don't go to church much at all or pray at the table or anything like that but they do believe. Gang culture is something that is very strong among youth, hence my peers as i'm only 21.  My mother's side of the family come from a past that is similar to the description Gsaint gave however there was no integration as they grew up throughout the 60s and 70s. South side Chicago wasn't integrated at all back then and even now integration is just starting to sink in. Because the majority of blacks where I come from are low middle class or low class, have a slew of financial problems (If you ever watch a black stand up comedian they may talk about this, watch some Richard Pryor, Dave Chapelle, Eddie Murphy or Chris Rock stand up, brilliant stuff) which seems to be common a mentality is created about getting money anyway possible. A lot of people that i've known have joined gangs, not because they have a desire to harm society but because it offers them a brother hood within the gang to some degree and illegal enterprises are quite lucrative.

Taking the time to get an education and living poor is very rough on one's mental fortitude. There have been times in the past where I've considered growing cannabis to sell, I know a few dealers that are child hood friends, connected to "powerful" people who can make a pound disappear and I could cash in on as much as 8K if the weed is good enough. I'm sure those who know me on the forums probably never gave a thought to me taking part in such behaviors, this is because, like many middle class families across America, after the bush years, my parents found themselves out of their well paying jobs.  We had nice things, went out to dinner, went to art fairs, would go to the conventions that pop up all over the city and buy crap we would never need. The first half of my childhood was great, when my father lost his job, all that good stuff went away, most of my mother's wages went to pay off their debts, she used to make about 50K a year yet half the time we ended up going to bed after eating a butter sandwich or something like that.  Despite this, my mother was raised with the mindset that most productive middle class families have so naturally, my brother and I strive for success, we stayed in school, didn't start dealing or gang banging or anything of the sort.

Now think about what it means if your family has lived poor for generations, your parents mind set was "get money". Meaning your dad may have been in a gang, your grandfather may have been in a gang or they were drug dealers, etc. You know, the things frowned upon in society. Children learn how to live from their parents. Imagine your dad telling you, if you wanna make it in life, you have to sell  those bags, be ready to stick somebody up if you need the dough. Have you ever heard the 50 Cent rapper's motto? "Get Rich or Die Tryin". That's the mindset that a vast majority of youth had. Back in school, the common thing all my male peers would spout was "I'm A Grown Ass Man". Most of them come from single mothers or live with grandparents that don't give a damn. The mindset of my peers is why waste time in school when you can sell rocks to the crack heads and make a mint in a short amount of time. I was an outcast because I wanted to do well in school. Girls actually found a desire to succeed in society as unattractive but they love the "gangsta" types. If you were 16, drove an escalade paid for with your drug money then you were the ideal male. This is a sharp contrast in integrated schools or majority white schools where the popular kids were those who had great grades, were socialites, etc.

Does this help you grasp an understanding? Being a detriment to society because you can make a load of cash quickly is glorified opposed to becoming an ideal member of society. Then there is the amount of people addicted to hard drugs who waste their life away and harm their children in various ways. In one of my previous posts I described hanging with a good friend at his parent's house, at said house there was pounds of weed, guns and various other very illegal things all over the table. I smoked a blunt with him, his parents and other relatives. Before this, I was waiting on said friend to get back after dropping off weed to customers and bringing back the dough, for his parents. I know several families like this, this is a very common thing among low income blacks and inner city blacks in general. It's not because their degenerates or anything, that's literally the culture here, they don't see anything wrong with that and like my friend's parents may love them very much but this is the norm for many black youth. I didn't even subscribe the projects, which are now disappearing but the families who have lived there for five generations are still around and project people, I hate to say it, are on a whole other level compared to what I described above, the above is the more tame version of it.

[Tank]

Thank you for taking the time to write that and explain your situation and your insights into it. I don't think I could ever truly comprehend what it is like to live your life. You might as well be a Martian your life experience is so different from mine! Do you see any reason why the mentality of those around you will ever change? What do you think will happen over the next couple of generations?

[Ultima22689]

Thank you for taking the time to write that and explain your situation and your insights into it. I don't think I could ever truly comprehend what it is like to live your life. You might as well be a Martian your life experience is so different from mine! Do you see any reason why the mentality of those around you will ever change? What do you think will happen over the next couple of generations?

Honestly, I don't know, I don't see any signs of the cycle changing unless the US education system makes a massive change from this reward/punishment crap we got going now, that's where it all starts, if you can convince kids that education holds far more promise than slinging dope then you've already changed the future of a generation for the better, honestly though, I don't see it happening, I think this cycle will go on for many decades to come.