Exhaustion

[dgmort19]

I'm feeling particularly downtrodden at the moment. The holiday season, with its numerous opportunities for social gatherings with family and friends, has proven intellectually burdensome. My younger brother and I are somewhat unique within our family, in that we are atheists. Our parents, aunts, uncles, and cousins of both sides are stalwartly Christian. I have recently been goaded into frustrating arguments against ignorance and delusion, and I am at my wit's end. I was wondering how many others here experience similar family lives. I thought it could give me hope or, at least, a feeling of unity to hear from others who have railed against religious absurdity in their own gene pool.

I, for one, feel like politely issuing a gentle, yet meaningful "**** off" next time I am asked to do battle against arguments such as "Evolution is not accepted by the majority of the scientific community" or "Homosexuals are all unhappy victims of child molestation." Or, my favorite, "The evidence for the resurrection of Christ is undeniable."

Is it so wrong to feel like giving up? Should I be ashamed that my mind can't bear the burden of trying to usher my family into the light of reason?
 

[Inevitable Droid]

Should I be ashamed that my mind can't bear the burden of trying to usher my family into the light of reason?

No.  Nobody's mind could bear the burden.  The burden cannot be borne, because whoever tries, regardless how brilliant, will always, inevitably, reenact the Myth of Sisyphus, punished for all time in Hades to roll a boulder up a hill, only to have the boulder spontaneously roll back down the hill, so that Sisyphus must follow it down and then roll it back up, again, again, again.
 
Neither you nor anyone can make a dent in the faith of your relatives because their faith doesn't derive from their thinking, but rather, their thinking derives from their faith.

Really let that sink in and you may start to feel a lot better.  For your relatives, reason doesn't judge faith, but rather, faith judges reason.  Facts don't test faith, but rather, faith tests facts.  

I promise you I am right in this.  Follow any of the debates with Christians that appear on this message board and you will be convinced I am right.  For your relatives, reality doesn't measure faith, but rather, faith measures reality.  Seeing with their own eyes won't put faith to the question, but rather, faith will put to the question what they see with their own eyes.  The many logical contradictions that would cause you to reject faith, cause your relatives, instead, to reject logic.

The brains of your relatives have been washed in the blood of the Lamb; I.e., they are brainwashed.  Debate is futile.  Their inner response will always be, "That contradicts faith so I reject that."  Take them back in a time machine to Palestine in the years when Jesus supposedly lived, and walk them through all that genuinely happened, whatever it was, to the extent anything happened at all.  Rather than question their faith, they will decide they are hallucinating, or you are tricking them, or the devil is tricking you all, or the science of time travel is false.

Follow any of the debates with Christians that appear on this message board.  You will see that I am right.

Be of good cheer, my friend.  Breathe in, breathe out, and release the burden.  What you have been attempting to do, cannot be done.  Fortunately, it needn't be attempted.  Eat the Christmas cookies and drink the egg nog.  Enjoy the smiling face of Santa Claus.  Talk with your relatives about the many, many topics of discussion our world offers up for our entertainment, and which have nothing to do with the absurdity of one Jew being nailed to a wooden cross so those who believe won't burn for all eternity.  Talk about sports, if you like sports, or movies, or books, or nature, or business, or one another's lives.  Leave fools to their folly, and as for you, be at peace.

[Achronos]

I would put into question why they are so overbearing in their faith towards you, instead of yourself making a choice on what to believe. My grandmother was pretty wise in not sharing her faith unless someone asked her, I think this should apply as well. One of the issues I have with Protestant Christians, assuming that is what your family is, is that they feel science and religion can't work together. I think that's not true at all, I believe science should flourish within the framework of God. Also there are too many generalizations and misconceptions regarding certain issues, like you brought up "Homosexuals are all unahppy victims of child molestation". It's a shame that such ignorance pervades (check out that Creation Musuem for example), but if you were to educate them on their failings do it out of love.

[Achronos]

No.  Nobody's mind could bear the burden.  The burden cannot be borne, because whoever tries, regardless how brilliant, will always, inevitably, reenact the Myth of Sisyphus, punished for all time in Hades to roll a boulder up a hill, only to have the boulder spontaneously roll back down the hill, so that Sisyphus must follow it down and then roll it back up, again, again, again.
 
Neither you nor anyone can make a dent in the faith of your relatives because their faith doesn't derive from their thinking, but rather, their thinking derives from their faith.

Really let that sink in and you may start to feel a lot better.  For your relatives, reason doesn't judge faith, but rather, faith judges reason.  Facts don't test faith, but rather, faith tests facts.  

I promise you I am right in this.  Follow any of the debates with Christians that appear on this message board and you will be convinced I am right.  For your relatives, reality doesn't measure faith, but rather, faith measures reality.  Seeing with their own eyes won't put faith to the question, but rather, faith will put to the question what they see with their own eyes.  The many logical contradictions that would cause you to reject faith, cause your relatives, instead, to reject logic.

Your logic is circular. You criticise us because we side with faith, which in your eyes is oppositional to reason. Yet at the same time, you must invariably have faith that your faculty of reason reflects reality accurately. How do you know that you are not in a Matrix of sorts? How do you know that reality is not an illusion etc? Your perceptions rely on the ability of your brain to accurately interpret sensory inputs in order to derive conclusions. As someone who's father is a veteran of three major brain surgeries, I can assure you that relying on the brain to be accurate about much of anything is a rather tenuous proposition at best. Just because a blind man lacks sight, doesn't mean we all do.

The brains of your relatives have been washed in the blood of the Lamb; I.e., they are brainwashed.  Debate is futile.  Their inner response will always be, "That contradicts faith so I reject that."  Take them back in a time machine to Palestine in the years when Jesus supposedly lived, and walk them through all that genuinely happened, whatever it was, to the extent anything happened at all.  Rather than question their faith, they will decide they are hallucinating, or you are tricking them, or the devil is tricking you all, or the science of time travel is false.

Scenario B
Jesus Christ really was the Son of God, really lived, really died, really rose again, and really ascended into Heaven. The Church which He founded with His apostles has endured over the last 2000 years, despite the most extreme persecution possible, and has left an enduring record of teachings, martyrs and miracles to testify to a reality beyond the comprehension of the human mind.

Which is really what it comes down to. You wish to believe, and would like us to believe, that the human mind (brain actually, as the term mind refers to conciousness, a concept which has no scientific basis) is able comprehend all that was, is and shall ever be. But if God doesn't exist, then you, I, and everyone else are nothing more than highly-evolved chimps. If this is true, then what I believe or do not believe is irrelevant. Humans are simply doomed to live on average 80 or so years and then die, on a planet that is doomed to die, orbiting a star doomed to die, in a galaxy doomed to die etc.

Even if this is the case, and I don't concede that it is, I would still choose to believe in God. Belief in God provides that flicker of hope in this dark dark world. And what else matters in the end, if not hope??

[Sophus]

Your logic is circular. You criticise us because we side with faith, which in your eyes is oppositional to reason. Yet at the same time, you must invariably have faith that your faculty of reason reflects reality accurately.

The irony is you're trying to give a reason for abandoning reason. Your logic circular. Reason is inescapable when it comes to justifying ideas and concepts. Once you convince me to abandon reason I'll have no reason to believe that's reasonable anymore.

[Inevitable Droid]

The irony is you're trying to give a reason for abandoning reason.

Another irony is that dgmort19 doesn't have to leave this thread to witness the very behavior I was describing.

[Voter]

I'm feeling particularly downtrodden at the moment. The holiday season, with its numerous opportunities for social gatherings with family and friends, has proven intellectually burdensome. My younger brother and I are somewhat unique within our family, in that we are atheists. Our parents, aunts, uncles, and cousins of both sides are stalwartly Christian. I have recently been goaded into frustrating arguments against ignorance and delusion, and I am at my wit's end. I was wondering how many others here experience similar family lives. I thought it could give me hope or, at least, a feeling of unity to hear from others who have railed against religious absurdity in their own gene pool.

So don't go to gatherings of stalwart Christians.

[Achronos]

Your logic is circular. You criticise us because we side with faith, which in your eyes is oppositional to reason. Yet at the same time, you must invariably have faith that your faculty of reason reflects reality accurately.

The irony is you're trying to give a reason for abandoning reason. Your logic circular. Reason is inescapable when it comes to justifying ideas and concepts. Once you convince me to abandon reason I'll have no reason to believe that's reasonable anymore.

No one has abandoned reason here.

Except the atheist.

[Davin]

Your logic is circular. You criticise us because we side with faith, which in your eyes is oppositional to reason. Yet at the same time, you must invariably have faith that your faculty of reason reflects reality accurately.

The irony is you're trying to give a reason for abandoning reason. Your logic circular. Reason is inescapable when it comes to justifying ideas and concepts. Once you convince me to abandon reason I'll have no reason to believe that's reasonable anymore.

No one has abandoned reason here.

Except the atheist.

I met The Atheist once, he beat the crap out of The Joker and Super Man. Pretty sure he didn't abandon his side kick Reason, The Atheist doesn't abandon anybody.

[McQ]

Your logic is circular. You criticise us because we side with faith, which in your eyes is oppositional to reason. Yet at the same time, you must invariably have faith that your faculty of reason reflects reality accurately.

The irony is you're trying to give a reason for abandoning reason. Your logic circular. Reason is inescapable when it comes to justifying ideas and concepts. Once you convince me to abandon reason I'll have no reason to believe that's reasonable anymore.

No one has abandoned reason here.

Except the atheist.

I'd say this right here is abandoning reason: Even if this is the case, and I don't concede that it is, I would still choose to believe in God. Belief in God provides that flicker of hope in this dark dark world. And what else matters in the end, if not hope??

[AnimatedDirt]

I'm feeling particularly downtrodden at the moment. The holiday season, with its numerous opportunities for social gatherings with family and friends, has proven intellectually burdensome. My younger brother and I are somewhat unique within our family, in that we are atheists. Our parents, aunts, uncles, and cousins of both sides are stalwartly Christian. I have recently been goaded into frustrating arguments against ignorance and delusion, and I am at my wit's end. I was wondering how many others here experience similar family lives. I thought it could give me hope or, at least, a feeling of unity to hear from others who have railed against religious absurdity in their own gene pool.

I, for one, feel like politely issuing a gentle, yet meaningful "**** off" next time I am asked to do battle against arguments such as "Evolution is not accepted by the majority of the scientific community" or "Homosexuals are all unhappy victims of child molestation." Or, my favorite, "The evidence for the resurrection of Christ is undeniable."

Is it so wrong to feel like giving up? Should I be ashamed that my mind can't bear the burden of trying to usher my family into the light of reason?

It seems absurd an atheist would even partake of gatherings with family celebrating an absurd idea(s) and/or beliefs.  You walked in to it.  What else do you expect?  It seems plain and painfully ignorant and deluded on your part is what you must do from here on out if you are at your wits end in these battles with your family.  Why keep going at all?  Make your statement of unbelief in your absence.

[Whitney]

I wouldn't personally bring up the religious topic around family and would avoid such discussions as much as possible if I had uneducated religious family...it's not worth the stress especially if they are old and set in their ways.

One of the issues I have with Protestant Christians, assuming that is what your family is, is that they feel science and religion can't work together. I think that's not true at all, I believe science should flourish within the framework of God.

As do many Protestant Christians...they aren't all fundamentalists and there are many very liberal Protestant churches.

[dgmort19]

It seems absurd an atheist would even partake of gatherings with family celebrating an absurd idea(s) and/or beliefs. You walked in to it. What else do you expect? It seems plain and painfully ignorant and deluded on your part is what you must do from here on out if you are at your wits end in these battles with your family. Why keep going at all? Make your statement of unbelief in your absence.

So don't go to gatherings of stalwart Christians.

What would you have me do as my family celebrates Christmas with abundant food, wine and joviality? Sit in my basement with a one-antlered dog?  :bananacolor:

[elliebean]

My family does this too, but I refuse to take the bait. I just smirk and stuff my mouth with figgy pudding.

[Gawen]

Your logic is circular. You criticise us because we side with faith, which in your eyes is oppositional to reason. Yet at the same time, you must invariably have faith that your faculty of reason reflects reality accurately. How do you know that you are not in a Matrix of sorts? How do you know that reality is not an illusion etc?

Another candidate for the patented Yahzi Baseball Bat test...