The terrifying thought of no afterlife

[Persimmon Hamster]

But existence, intelligence and will are in themselves good.

Is that so?  This is a frail reed tying your argument together.  Please demonstrate the intrinsic goodness of these qualities without reference to your god.

Debaters, humbly requesting your attention:  I am lurking and am very interested in this part of the discussion.  Might I request/suggest a concentrated, directed effort to focus in on this?  I think you have struck upon a key error in the theist's logic.  Do not let him sidestep it.
 

[Inevitable Droid]

You're equivocating thinking and logic.  In that sense, you are indeed missing the point: not all thinking is logical, including much processing of sensory data.  When the only mode of thinking you use is logic, you will get achieve GIGO-like results if your premises are flawed, and still make perfectly logical statements.

OK.  I'm going to ask a serious question.  I'm not debating.  It appears I have a gap in my mental framework and I'd like to fill it.  What kinds of thinking exist that can yield valid information and aren't grounded in logic?  I certainly understand and agree that flawed premises will yield flawed conclusions despite perfectly sound logical form.  What I don't understand is what alternatives we have.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Observation.  Emotional insight.  Subconscious data processing.  Empathic thinking.

[SomewhereInND]

How does logic differ from reason?

Logic gets you shroders cat.
Reason says the cat doesnt care what you think.

[Inevitable Droid]

Observation.  Emotional insight.  Subconscious data processing.  Empathic thinking.

OK.  Let me think about these.  By which I mean, let me apply logic!

Seriously, I don't see any of the four as distinct from logic.  Observation is logic's first step.  It's the identification of premises.  Emotional insight is interpreting behavior in terms of one's premises regarding emotions and how they operate.  Subconscious data processing is logic performed in a secret compartment.  Empathic thinking is extrapolating how a person must feel, given that person's situation as a set of premises.

I'll have to research this.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Observation.  Emotional insight.  Subconscious data processing.  Empathic thinking.

OK.  Let me think about these.  By which I mean, let me apply logic!

Seriously, I don't see any of the four as distinct from logic.  Observation is logic's first step.  It's the identification of premises.  Emotional insight is interpreting behavior in terms of one's premises regarding emotions and how they operate.  Subconscious data processing is logic performed in a secret compartment.  Empathic thinking is extrapolating how a person must feel, given that person's situation as a set of premises.

I'll have to research this.

Yeah, this seems to me more like a redefinition.  Put another way, how could you falsify your hypothesis?

[Inevitable Droid]

Yeah, this seems to me more like a redefinition.  Put another way, how could you falsify your hypothesis?

Until I poked around on the internet, I was at a loss as to what we could possibly be talking about here.  But now I think we're talking about intuition.  I would have said that intuition was arriving at knowledge without thinking.  Thus one either thinks or one intuits.  To think is to reason, which is to employ logic.  To intuit is to perceive.  But apparently some people view thinking as a set, of which the subsets are logic and intuition.  I don't know why people would use words in this way.  It makes more sense to me to say that either we think or we intuit.

[Achronos]

As a Christian, I think we should believe that during our life here on earth our main task is to make the Kingdom which is to come manifest in our midst (that is to say, we should strive to be holy and strive to love as God loves). We (Christians) believe that the Age of the Spirit has arrived, and yet that it is also paradoxically still to come. It is this eschatological tension that should be the foundation of how we live our lives in the here and now. I think that one of the greatest theological and pastoral crises facing the Church today is ignorance of or obscuration of this eschatological tension.  

Many saints have intimated that the life we live now on this earth is absolutely less than nothing when compared to the abundance of life that we will inherit in the Age to come!

"If Christ is risen, nothing else matters. And if Christ is not risen -- nothing else matters." - Jaroslav Pelikan, among others.

[Asmodean]

Kingdom which is to come

After 2000 years, most kingdoms are now republics, governed by elected or appointed figures. What makes you still call whatever "is to come" a kingdom?

After 2000 years, some nice places have become shitholes and some shitholes have turned nice. What makes you think The Kingdomâ,,¢ is not a shithole?

[SomewhereInND]

As a Christian, I think we should believe that during our life here on earth our main task is to make the Kingdom which is to come manifest in our midst (that is to say, we should strive to be holy and strive to love as God loves).

As an athiest, I think you we should concentrate more on improving humanity.

[Thumpalumpacus]

As a Christian, I think we should believe that during our life here on earth our main task is to make the Kingdom which is to come manifest in our midst (that is to say, we should strive to be holy and strive to love as God loves). We (Christians) believe that the Age of the Spirit has arrived, and yet that it is also paradoxically still to come. It is this eschatological tension that should be the foundation of how we live our lives in the here and now. I think that one of the greatest theological and pastoral crises facing the Church today is ignorance of or obscuration of this eschatological tension.  

Many saints have intimated that the life we live now on this earth is absolutely less than nothing when compared to the abundance of life that we will inherit in the Age to come!

"If Christ is risen, nothing else matters. And if Christ is not risen -- nothing else matters." - Jaroslav Pelikan, among others.

13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.   "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory."

13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.   

13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:   

13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.   

13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

14:61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?   

14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Luke in Chpt 9 vs 27:

9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

... and I could go on; there are quite a few more.

Put shortly, it appears you missed the bus.  Or your messiah did.  Likely the latter, it seems to me.

[Achronos]

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

As a Christian, I think we should believe that during our life here on earth our main task is to make the Kingdom which is to come manifest in our midst (that is to say, we should strive to be holy and strive to love as God loves).

As an athiest, I think you we should concentrate more on improving humanity.

Being holy is a part of practicing peace, freedom and justice. But while it can be improved, it can never become the place God intended it to be.

Kingdom which is to come

After 2000 years, most kingdoms are now republics, governed by elected or appointed figures. What makes you still call whatever "is to come" a kingdom?

After 2000 years, some nice places have become shitholes and some shitholes have turned nice. What makes you think The Kingdomâ,,¢ is not a shithole?

Now why exactly would God's Kingdom ever be a terrible place for His people who He loves?  It would go against the very goodness of God. Now let me guess I'll have to repeat again why God is good...

[Achronos]

But existence, intelligence and will are in themselves good.

Is that so?  This is a frail reed tying your argument together.  Please demonstrate the intrinsic goodness of these qualities without reference to your god.

Debaters, humbly requesting your attention:  I am lurking and am very interested in this part of the discussion.  Might I request/suggest a concentrated, directed effort to focus in on this?  I think you have struck upon a key error in the theist's logic.  Do not let him sidestep it.
 

We can't exactly deduce God from the equation, let me explain.

We observe in nature things that are possible to be and not to be, as they come into existence and pass out of existence. Such things could not always exist, though, because something that could possibly not exist at some time actually does not exist at some time. Thus, if it is possible for everything not to exist, then, at some time, nothing did exist. But if nothing ever did exist, then nothing would exist even now, since everything that exists requires for its existence something that already existed. Yet it is absurd to claim that nothing exists even now. Therefore, not all beings are merely possible, but there must be something the existence of which is necessary. Now, every necessary thing has its necessity caused by something else or it does not. Since it is impossible for there to exist an infinite series of causes of necessary things, we must conclude that there is something that is necessary in itself. People speak of this thing as God.

Beings in the world have characteristics to varying degrees. Some are more or less good, true, noble, and so forth. Such gradations are all measured in relation to a maximum, however. Thus, there must be something best, truest, noblest, and so on. Now, as Aristotle teaches, things that are greatest in truth are also greatest in being. Therefore, there must be something that is the cause of being, goodness, and every other perfection that we find in beings in the world. We call this maximum cause God.

We observe in nature that inanimate and nonintelligent objects act toward the best possible purpose, even though these objects are not aware of doing so. It is clear that these objects do not achieve their purpose by sheer chance but rather according to a plan. Any inanimate or nonintelligent object that acts toward a purpose, though, must be guided by a being that possesses knowledge and intelligence, just as an arrow is directed by an archer. Therefore, there must be some intelligent being that directs all natural things toward their purpose. We call this being God.

In contrast to irrational animals, man has the faculty and will of reason. The will, also known as the rational appetite, seeks to achieve both its end and the good, and so all acts, being guided by the will, are for an end. Happiness is the goal of human life, and every human being is on the path toward the complete actualization of his or her potential. Indeed, humans’ actualization and realization of their potential is exactly what constitutes happiness. Humans’ potential, or what humans can be, consists in the contemplation of the Divine Essence. Happiness and the contemplation of the Divine Essence are thus identical and inseparable.

The contemplation of the Divine Essence is not only necessary for happiness, it is uniquely sufficient. Nothing except the contemplation of the Divine Essence can bring happiness. No worldly or material good, such as fame, honor, glory, power, health, or even pleasure itself can bring happiness, as even pleasure is just a component of happiness. A state of happiness can exist only when the will no longer seeks anything. Since the will naturally seeks the Divine Essence, it will continue to seek, and thus to be unhappy, until it finds it.

Human beings have unique intelligence that encompasses understanding, how is that not good?

[Asmodean]

Now let me guess I'll have to repeat again why God is good...

No. Just answer the questions without dodging them.  :raised:  Scratch that last one for the purpose of discussion  

Countries rise and fall in short time sometimes. What makes you think your perfect god's perfect little place with grass he paints green on the side that faces you, apparently, is not long-since fallen?

What makes you think that your god has not fallen ill and died - or developed a mental disorder, or just changed his personality for the worse?

[Achronos]

You suggest a premise that God is not perfect which goes against the very definition of such.