I don't get it...

[AnimatedDirt]

I thought a discussion might be in the works, I suppose I was wrong.  Have a great day.

You seemed to be digging for one, so I gave it to you. You wanted to play a circular game of rationality as if you could magically make irrationality rational. And your GOD didn't just kill baby humans in it's little tantrum within the book of Genesis, He basically drowned hundreds of billions of living organisms in a giant bathtub(Earth) because he was sorry for creating man. That includes baby bunnies, little lion cubs, and baby elephants. I'm sure animals love to drown. And what's worse is that said magical sky fairy could only come up with violence and irrational logic to try and fix his little problem that he supposedly created. Only a heartless genocidal maniac would do that kind of thing. And we will just skip the fact that there isn't enough water and ice on this planet to cause water levels to rise any higher than 250 ft  above sea level. .. It's just nonsensical.

Now when it comes to parenting, you don't mortify your children with threats of death, or burning them in the oven. Any parent that verbally abuses or threatens their kids ought to have their kids taken away from them until they can get some serious therapy. There is no rationalizing inappropriate use of fear. That's not how LOVE works.

No, I truly thought you might want to discuss, not just throw insults back and forth.  That's very easy to do, but my choice is to remain in good standing here on "your" forum.  Thanks for your exchange though.

[TheJackel]

No, I truly thought you might want to discuss, not just throw insults back and forth.  That's very easy to do, but my choice is to remain in good standing here on "your" forum.  Thanks for your exchange though.

Ahh, I didn't throw out any insults. 2ndly, this isn't my forum. 3rdly, intellectual debates stem from honest discourse and not from circular arguments that try to rationalize irrationality. If you want to discuss the Concept of a GOD, you can feel free to try. However, that is a very slippery and movable goal post to where any concept can be refuted, or even proven wrong. This is especially true since there is no actual defined definition of what a god really is. It could be myself, my cat, solipsism, or anything you want to label as such. You will find that argument to quickly collapse, and find it to be a self-contradiction. The concept of GOD is purely 100% opinion. I've already had this debate many times before, and I have never lost it for a very good reason. I can move the goal post, and you won't like that argument. :cool:

[AnimatedDirt]

No, I truly thought you might want to discuss, not just throw insults back and forth.  That's very easy to do, but my choice is to remain in good standing here on "your" forum.  Thanks for your exchange though.

Ahh, I didn't throw out any insults. 2ndly, this isn't my forum. 3rdly, intellectual debates stem from honest discourse and not from circular arguments that try to rationalize irrationality. If you want to discuss the Concept of a GOD, you can feel free to try. However, that is a very slippery and movable goal post to where any concept can be refuted, or even proven wrong. This is especially true since there is no actual defined definition of what a god really is. It could be myself, my cat, solipsism, or anything you want to label as such. You will find that argument to quickly collapse, and find it to be a self-contradiction. The concept of GOD is purely 100% opinion. I've already had this debate many times before, and I have never lost it for a very good reason. I can move the goal post, and you won't like that argument. :cool:

If I'm insulted, then they are insults.  You're apparently insulted by my beliefs and so you throw nonsensical pink elephants, fairies...and the like into the mix...rightly so by your non-belief, but insulting to me.

I never said it was your forum, I said it is "your" forum.  Obviously insinuating that I am a guest here among believers of a different sort opposed to my belief.  If you can't see that, then I stand corrected that it is not "your" forum.

I was honestly answering your points.  If they lack enough intellectuality for you, then I apologize for my stupid ignorance in the face of your intellectual superiority.

I apologize to Cross for side-tracking this thread.  Moving on.  

[TheJackel]

No, I truly thought you might want to discuss, not just throw insults back and forth.  That's very easy to do, but my choice is to remain in good standing here on "your" forum.  Thanks for your exchange though.

Ahh, I didn't throw out any insults. 2ndly, this isn't my forum. 3rdly, intellectual debates stem from honest discourse and not from circular arguments that try to rationalize irrationality. If you want to discuss the Concept of a GOD, you can feel free to try. However, that is a very slippery and movable goal post to where any concept can be refuted, or even proven wrong. This is especially true since there is no actual defined definition of what a god really is. It could be myself, my cat, solipsism, or anything you want to label as such. You will find that argument to quickly collapse, and find it to be a self-contradiction. The concept of GOD is purely 100% opinion. I've already had this debate many times before, and I have never lost it for a very good reason. I can move the goal post, and you won't like that argument. :cool:

If I'm insulted, then they are insults.  You're apparently insulted by my beliefs and so you throw nonsensical pink elephants, fairies...and the like into the mix...rightly so by your non-belief, but insulting to me.

I never said it was your forum, I said it is "your" forum.  Obviously insinuating that I am a guest here among believers of a different sort opposed to my belief.  If you can't see that, then I stand corrected that it is not "your" forum.

I was honestly answering your points.  If they lack enough intellectuality for you, then I apologize for my stupid ignorance in the face of your intellectual superiority.

I apologize to Cross for side-tracking this thread.  Moving on.  

Did you seriously think opposite views wouldn't be incompatible? Now you are trying to play the morality game to deflect from having to actually address the inherent problems to your beliefs system. And you soon forget that I can't actually insult something that doesn't exist. Kind of like how Unicorns don't exist, but are claimed to have in the bible. Arguing from a Carl Sagan position is inherently the nonsensical part of this discussion. Thus you are stuck with the equivocation of said deity to that of something like a Pixie fairy. Worse yet, you actually believe that my disbelief is insulting to you. Now that is some rich Dogma there because I don't find it at all insulting that you believe in a GOD. I think you need to reevaluate that position, and stop emotional pleading for credibility. And in no way am I claiming "Intellectual superiority" vs holding you to an honest debate.

So what your posts lack intellectually is ability to remain honest. Rationalizing immoral and abusive behavior is not intellectually honest. It's at best advocating that it's ok to throw your kids into the oven and cook them to death so long as you are sorry for creating them due to their disobedient behavior, or because they don't worship you, or even believe in you. An honest person would know you can't make death, violence, fear mongering, or burning in hell sound loving, or even loving in nature. Much less the idea of the creation of death, pain, starvation, disease, suffering, torture, abuse, genocide, anger, hate, disorders, birth defects, violent events, accidents, ect.

"Thou shall not Kill"

Great moral value, hypocritical by nature of that which you claim had said it. Especially when it had invented death itself under your belief system. Not much you can give for an excuse to a deity that's supposed to be an all "LOVING" Parent like figure to which is also supposed to be Omnipotent. It gets worse knowing what Omnipotent means.

[AnimatedDirt]

Did you seriously think opposite views wouldn't be incompatible?

Not at all.  That doesn't mean we can't discuss in a manner more condusive to learning rather than imputing one's superiorty over the other.

Now you are trying to play the morality game to deflect from having to actually address the inherent problems to your beliefs system. And you soon forget that I can't actually insult something that doesn't exist. Kind of like how Unicorns don't exist, but are claimed to have in the bible. Arguing from a Carl Sagan position is inherently the nonsensical part of this discussion. Thus you are stuck with the equivocation of said deity to that of something like a Pixie fairy. Worse yet, you actually believe that my disbelief is insulting to you. Now that is some rich Dogma there because I don't find it at all insulting that you believe in a GOD. I think you need to reevaluate that position, and stop emotional pleading for credibility. And in no way am I claiming "Intellectual superiority" vs holding you to an honest debate.

So what your posts lack intellectually is ability to remain honest. Rationalizing immoral and abusive behavior is not intellectually honest. It's at best advocating that it's ok to throw your kids into the oven and cook them to death so long as you are sorry for creating them due to their disobedient behavior, or because they don't worship you, or even believe in you. An honest person would know you can't make death, violence, fear mongering, or burning in hell sound loving, or even loving in nature. Much less the idea of the creation of death, pain, starvation, disease, suffering, torture, abuse, genocide, anger, hate, disorders, birth defects, violent events, accidents, ect.

"Thou shall not Kill"

Great moral value, hypocritical by nature of that which you claim had said it. Especially when it had invented death itself under your belief system. Not much you can give for an excuse to a deity that's supposed to be an all "LOVING" Parent like figure to which is also supposed to be Omnipotent. It gets worse knowing what Omnipotent means.

I tried to put forth an intelligent analogy that we could exchange ideas about what I believe and you don't.  You reject it, or better, you ignored it and simply made fun of it.  So be it.

Your disbelief is not insulting to me.  You choose to use a  crass method of discussion, as idiotic as you think it may be to discuss with me, is what is insulting...not your disbelief.  This is why I stated that it's easy to throw insults back and forth, but you don't seem to understand the point.  Maybe that is your point, and I get it.  My belief is so unintelligent that to discuss it is impossible without bringing up fairy tales.  It's your only method, apparently.  My wish would simply be that if "Thou shalt not kill" is the question, let's discuss it.  We both believe in the command/law, simply one of us has a another reason aside from civil morality.  I can understand you think my belief is stupid, but you pose no question as to the rational behind it, instead attribute it to impossible things.  You've made up your mind it is equivalent to pink elephants etc. so you treat it as a joke and cannot move past the game.  

It's quite apparent you'd rather not discuss intelligently...as limited as I am...but instead you keep on going in the same circle as you accuse me of going in.  Let's just end our part in this thread for now.  It's probably doing nothing for the OP's intention for posting this question.

Thanks again.

[TheJackel]

Not at all.  That doesn't mean we can't discuss in a manner more condusive to learning rather than imputing one's superiorty over the other.

Then please refrain from acting like it. And again this isn't imputing superiority, you seriously need to drop that reaching argument. Arguing for rationality is not imputing superiority.

I tried to put forth an intelligent analogy that we could exchange ideas about what I believe and you don't.  You reject it, or better, you ignored it and simply made fun of it.  So be it.

I am aware of your attempt to put forth an intelligent analogy. However, your analogy doesn't even come close to actually being reflective of what you attempted to analogize. And I didn't make fun of anything vs being blunt and straight forward to cut off circular arguments.

Your disbelief is not insulting to me. You choose to use a  crass method of discussion, as idiotic as you think it may be to discuss with me, is what is insulting...not your disbelief.

This is a prime case of Christian realism to where anything against their religion is considered a direct insult to themselves. It's a means to ignore what doesn't agree with them by equivocating it to being insulting, demonic, evil ect. The topic has to do with you trying to side step the problems discussed above. This is why you revert to this topic of discussion vs addressing the problems specifically outlined above.  Prime example is as follows:

This is why I stated that it's easy to throw insults back and forth, but you don't seem to understand the point.  Maybe that is your point, and I get it.  My belief is so unintelligent that to discuss it is impossible without bringing up fairy tales.  It's your only method, apparently.

Then after you are done with emotional pleading you state the following:

My wish would simply be that if "Thou shalt not kill" is the question, let's discuss it.  We both believe in the command/law, simply one of us has a another reason aside from civil morality.

Here you did not evaluate the Law in regards to that supposedly made the law and broke it. Not only did it break the law, it created the law that routinely breaks it. Logically, why would such laws need to exists if you simply remove that which breaks it? Self-contradiction and hypocrisy do not make GODS, or even Omnipotent ones for that matter. However, you revert back to more emotional pleading vs actually addressing the issue below:

I can understand you think my belief is stupid, but you pose no question as to the rational behind it, instead attribute it to impossible things.  You've made up your mind it is equivalent to pink elephants etc. so you treat it as a joke and cannot move past the game.  

No where did I say your belief in GOD was stupid. That context is a matter of opinion, and is irrelevant considering anything can be stated to be a "GOD". That includes ourselves. I equivocate your supposed GOD to such things because it has no more evidence to support it's existence than that of something like a pixie fairy. It's the Carl Sagan's Invisible dragon, and it's a baseless position. Hence I am treating it like fiction vs a "Joke". And there are several paradoxes that disprove the possibility of Omnipotence because it's a direct self-contradiction. If you like, I can outline them here.

It's quite apparent you'd rather not discuss intelligently...as limited as I am...but instead you keep on going in the same circle as you accuse me of going in.  Let's just end our part in this thread for now.  It's probably doing nothing for the OP's intention for posting this question.

Incorrect, and I am not the one avoiding the discussion. The circle I bring you around is the circle that is trying to force you to actually address the argument vs avoiding it. When you can actually address the argument, you let me know.

[AnimatedDirt]

When you can actually address the argument, you let me know.

When you can discuss without reverting to making fun of and simply talk, you let me know.

[TheJackel]

When you can actually address the argument, you let me know.

When you can discuss without reverting to making fun of and simply talk, you let me know.

Nobody made fun, please refrain from making baseless assertions, or stop instigating circular arguments that seem intended to place you on a "Moral High Ground". We can simply talk, I've been doing that the entire time. I would rather you simply address the argument vs deflect from it. And you do realize you are talking to an EX-Christian correct?

This will be very direct, and no explanations or excuses required.

Did your GOD -->kill<-- anything?

[Being_Brave]

I hope you're still keeping up with this thread...
I'm not athiest, but I do think that you should absolutely get facts and stick to your guns. By facts, I mean to review what each side presents as fact.  Sometimes it's like a political smear campaign with both sides ripping the other to shreds but never really stating what they stand for. It's easy for Christians to default to, "What if you're wrong?" and for Atheists to default to,"You can't prove God exists." I think by making the choice to ask questions you've already started out strong, and I hope you find enough support here (and eventually in your community) to be more confident in your choice.

People, including your friends and family, don't have the authority to damn you to hell. If it's real, they certainly couldn't send you there anyways. They may think it concerns them, especially your family, but the truth is you have a brain that functions perfectly well, and you get to use it to make informed decisions about your life. (Remind your family/friends that their duty as Christians obligates them only to teach you about faith, not to force it on you. If they're frightened for your soul, tell them they've done their part...it would be between you and God anyways).

If there really was a God, why would he put so many religions on the earth. There are so many! How the hell should we know what to follow. If I was a Christian, some other religion would be saying I was going to hell.

As a Christian, other Christians will tell you you're going to hell, depending on what denomination you are

Of course, I would love everyone to see religion the way I do!!.... but it's just not going to happen. It's a personal choice. I chose to have faith, and I chose my religion based on history and how I am allowed to accept ideals that other denominations don't. I think before you quesiton WHICH religion is right, you have to decide IF religion is right. If it's not something you can live by then you've got your whole life to read up on what everybody else believes, and I wouldn't sweat it. If it's still something you feel drawn to, though, or if you're just curious about it,  it might be helpful to get a couple books on religions that touch on the basics of what each believes. ((i.e. The Complete Guide to Christian Denominations: Understanding the History, Beliefs, and Differences by Ron Rhodes, 10$ Amazon or B&N; World Religions in a Nutshell: A Compact Guide to Reaching Those of Other Faiths by Ray Comfor, 10.19$ Amazon/B&N))

[trexshinigami]

You know what?  I dont get it either .... I think it's important to not get too caught up in what drives people- it will make you crazy.

I feel really isolated too but lately im finding that there are many athiests or other like minded people out there, we just dont advertise it: You are not alone by any means.  You will find people in your life that you can relate to.

The best advice I can give you is to love yourself and never let anyone make you feel inferior or wrong because of who you are or what you believe in.  

It gets so much better after highschool I promise!  Your so brave and so smart, you have an amazing life ahead of you.

/hug

[fazFwQo83]

Unfortunately, over the centuries the Christians and Muslims have been so effective at imposing their religion that just between these two, they claim to account for almost a full third of the planet's population. Over time, these religions have become a "defacto standard" in our lives. They cling to the belief that if enough people believe in something then there must be some truth to it. Tell that to flat earth society ( http://theflatearthsociety.org/ ).

It's like when [strike:2avmf3ft]Newton[/strike:2avmf3ft] Copernicus proposed that the Earth was not the center of the universe. At the time, for most people, it was an unimaginable statement. How could anybody think that? Well, now we have streams of evidence pouring in that directly contradicts science and history as it is presented in "the good book". And yet people still cling to their security blanket. This is the mentality you are dealing with. A mentality born of ignorance and superstition. One that says: "Well, since science doesn't have all the answers, I am going to believe something completely irrational and without foundation." It's just silly.

And if you take the position that religion is false, then you start to see all the problems with it. For instance, in education, there are those who want "equal time" with Creationism and Evolution. It's the equivalent of saying "after biology class, we are going to learn all about how storks make babies and distribute them to deserving parents". It's ridiculous. At least the creationists have the balls the to stand up for what they believe in, unlike so called cafeteria catholics and "liberal" Christians that "don't take the bible so literally".

The population is expanding at a phenomenal rate, resources are dwindling, the extinction of other species is increasing at an alarming rate and liberal Christians are running around preaching the childish notion of the prosperity gospel? They say things like "God wants to bless you" and "God loves you and He wants you to live in prosperity". People tend to interpret that as saying "God wants you to have money and cars and houses and clothes and accessories and a ps3 and a 50" plasma tv and ..." You have to hand it to them, it's a good way of distracting gullible people from $15 trillion worth of debt owed by the American people and the fact that we're raping the planet, damn near killing ourselves and others in order to fulfill this silly notion of "prosperity".

In my opinion, religion should be put in the mythology section. And we people should start working towards heaven on earth instead of just waiting for our troubles to end in some imaginary afterlife. We need to stop praying and start thinking. You are way more capable than religion would like to give you credit for. If you want to have "faith" - have faith in yourself, not some imaginary authoritarian god.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Good post, but it was Copernicus and not Newton who disposed of geocentrism.

[Croaker]

I was reading an article today off another website discussing the Large Hadron Collider, and how they were changing over to different elements inside. Somebody commented on how it was a waste of time, since they wouldn't be able to figure out how the universe was created, and that knowledge was not for us to learn anyways - this someone being Christian, of course.

The motto of Christians when it comes to science seems to not be "I give up," since they of course love the internet, phones, tech, etc., but more of a "don't research things that question my beliefs."

Keep your head in the sand, folks, nothing to see here...

[fazFwQo83]

Good post, but it was Copernicus and not Newton who disposed of geocentrism.

The force is strong with you ... my apologies. You are correct: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copernicus

Fascinating article too.

[fazFwQo83]

I was reading an article today off another website discussing the Large Hadron Collider, and how they were changing over to different elements inside. Somebody commented on how it was a waste of time, since they wouldn't be able to figure out how the universe was created, and that knowledge was not for us to learn anyways - this someone being Christian, of course.

The motto of Christians when it comes to science seems to not be "I give up," since they of course love the internet, phones, tech, etc., but more of a "don't research things that question my beliefs."

Keep your head in the sand, folks, nothing to see here...

I can only laugh. I mean, what else can I do?

And I would love see that article. Please post the link if you have it.