Ethical basis for Veganism or Vegetarianism?

[karadan]

I confess not understanding anyone who doesn't enjoy good barbecue.

Most veggies say they like the smell of bacon. It must be a massive struggle for many of them, especially the ones who've eaten meat before. You certainly cannot beat a good bbq though.

I've actually eaten meat which was cooked over an extinct volcano in Lanzarote. That thing was incredible. A grill positioned atop a forty foot deep pit at the top of an old volcano. It was good eatin'.

[Tanker]

Ummm.....welcome to 1982. I hear they have wireless telephones and small casette players called Walkmen that allow you to listen to music on the go too.

[Dretlin]

I'm told you can have vegetarian burgers! *
Is this true?  

[* I sympathise with vegetarians, but why would I have to eat such burgers?...]

I was a vegetarian for four years. It became more a matter of habit than anything else.

Eventually I gave it up, as I was picking junk food in place of meat. My diet was completely unsustainable toward the end and was rather unpleasant.

[Whitney]

Well, let me be frank, here:
I have never tasted a vegetarian burger!
Just the thought upsets my stomach.

Do you even know what one is?  For instance, a portabello mushroom grilled and placed on bread is a vegetarian "burger" and is especially yummy if topped with grilled onion.  Some packaged vegetarian burgers are portabello based and don't taste like a soy patty.

On the gross out scale, ground up meat looks pretty gross especially when you think about how it is typically processed (which is why I try not to think about it).  So while I'm not a vegetarian (and think being vegetarian or vegan entirely is too extreme) I can easily see how a vegetarian reading this thread would think you are being rather silly being grossed out by some pressed/seasoned veggies.

[The Magic Pudding]

I make a pasta sauce with mushroom in place of meat, it's quite popular and they are a fussy bunch around here.

[Fininho]

I confess not understanding anyone who doesn't enjoy good barbecue.

Makes two of us.
Who is the human who doesn't enjoy the aroma?
But seriously, I avoid meat.
It is very expensive, here in Johannesburg.
My sons are, however, undisciplined in their diet, I'm sorry to say.
I blame myself for that.
They are telling their children to follow the wrong diet, too.
I'm doubly guilty.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Whitney's right.  Portabellos are very meaty in texture, if not taste.  I make a pretty mean stuffed portabello, and if they're large enough, two make a good meal.

[elliebean]

Ummm.....welcome to 1982. I hear they have wireless telephones and small casette players called Walkmen that allow you to listen to music on the go too.

Hahahaha!! Thank you!  

[LegendarySandwich]

Just a simple question I want to pose: is eating meat morally justifiable or not, and what is your reasoning behind your answer?

[Asmodean]

It is justified by our biology, humans being omnivorous creatures. Thus, no moral justification is needed. Morals do not factor in the more basic [than morals themselves] instinctive drives.

Is it moral to have sex? Is it moral to sleep? To urinate?

Morals only start to come into the equasion when you are starting to look at the particular circumstances of each event.

In short: the act of eating meat is neither moral nor immoral.

[LegendarySandwich]

It is justified by our biology, humans being omnivorous creatures. Thus, no moral justification is needed. Morals do not factor in the more basic [than morals themselves] instinctive drives.

Is it moral to have sex? Is it moral to sleep? To urinate?

Morals only start to come into the equasion when you are starting to look at the particular circumstances of each event.

In short: the act of eating meat is neither moral nor immoral.

Isn't it also natural for a man to want cheat on his partner? And rape innocent people? And murder people he disagrees with? I would define those things as wrong, in most cases.

EDIT: I would claim that, a lot of the time, it is moral to have sex, and to sleep, and to urinate.

[The Magic Pudding]

I think we make our own morals and I can understand someone seeing it as immoral.
The more strikingly immoral thing for me is the treatment of animals.
One example is the live sheep export trade.  Sheep are crowded onto a ship and sent over to the middle east.
Conditions are hot and cramped and many die.
Why do they do this?  
Because the customers don't trust infidels will kill them in a manner befitting their religion.

[EssejSllim]

I struggle with this question. On the one hand, eating sentient animals feels akin to murdering a human being. On the other hand, they will die anyway, so why should we not eat them?

It is justified by our biology, humans being omnivorous creatures. Thus, no moral justification is needed. Morals do not factor in the more basic [than morals themselves] instinctive drives.

Is it moral to have sex? Is it moral to sleep? To urinate?

Morals only start to come into the equasion when you are starting to look at the particular circumstances of each event.

In short: the act of eating meat is neither moral nor immoral.

I do agree with this. It is similar to saying that wolves, or lions are immoral because they eat other animals.

That being said, humans do not have to be omnivorous creatures. We can survive without eating meat.

[elliebean]

To your question, I will only add mine: what are its effects on other people and on yourself; and of those effects, which one seems to outweigh all the others?

[LegendarySandwich]

I struggle with this question. On the one hand, eating sentient animals feels akin to murdering a human being. On the other hand, they will die anyway, so why should we not eat them?

It is justified by our biology, humans being omnivorous creatures. Thus, no moral justification is needed. Morals do not factor in the more basic [than morals themselves] instinctive drives.

Is it moral to have sex? Is it moral to sleep? To urinate?

Morals only start to come into the equasion when you are starting to look at the particular circumstances of each event.

In short: the act of eating meat is neither moral nor immoral.

I do agree with this. It is similar to saying that wolves, or lions are immoral because they eat other animals.

That being said, humans do not have to be omnivorous creatures. We can survive without eating meat.

Well, humans will eventually die anyways, so why shouldn't we eat them?

Morals only come into the equation when humans (or any other intelligent form of life capable of thinking about morality and acting on their thoughts) are involved, so just because other animals do it, it doesn't it moral for us to do it. We can stop eating meat, both on an intellectual and biological level (like you said, we're omnivores). Lions and wolves can't.

Note that I'm not a vegetarian -- however, the morality of eating other living beings has troubled me a bit recently.