I don't get it...

[AnimatedDirt]

But that is not the context we are using, so this analogy fails.

I can appreciate this "other" point, however when I mention 'fear' in context of fearing God, it is simply that...a healty fear that one knows more than another and that one has more power than the other.  It's not necessarily the fear of pain and doom.  I've already acknowledged that certainly some view it and hold to their "faith" by the fear of pain and doom.  

I don't know/recall ever telling someone they are going to hell.  Now, I do joke about it (which is probably wrong) and in instances I may tell someone that has just cheated on their taxes, run a red light..."You're going to hell!"  But this is in context of a friend.  However as a point of me "knowing" for certain that someone is going to hell and thus proclaiming it as fact, is just wrong.  I don't know you or anyone's heart (which is where our true identity and beliefs is), or our inner-selfs.  I cannot presume that you will remain an Atheist all your life.  I don't know that.  You may be sure of it, but that's your own knowledge of yourself.  From a Christian perspective, I cannot do this knowing that only God knows each of us in our heart and knows what each will choose.  I don't know that so for me to make a judgment and use it as a scare-tactic is so wrong.  I would not hesitate to tell another Christian doing this that he/she is wrong in doing so and possibly even damning themselves in doing so.  If it interests you, you may want to ask your mother again and make sure it is the unhealthy fear she serves God from.  Maybe you took it wrong or maybe you're right.  I don't know.

What is fact (fact if the Bible is correct) is that choice is given.  If a person has chosen to disbelieve, then the consequence is hell...but more specifically the consequence is death.  Now, as an Atheist, you don't have a problem with death as you know in your heart that one day you will die.  I don't think anyone disputes this point.  So to say God is some kind of demon or fear-monger in making one choice death and another choice life...it just seems to go overboard.  You're an Atheist and at this time (again if the Bible is true) and Christ comes...you've made your choice and what is there more to say.  Of course you can protest that there were no clues, evidence, warnings...whatever else, or you can curse God for not giving you what you wanted to believe and simply die...as you would if there were no God.  I'm not sure what scares you specifically.  Would you like to elaborate?  I don't wish to debate you, but maybe I can shed some light on the subject or at least give you a different perspective.

And if we are the so-called 'children' of this God, why must we bow to him? You don't see me bowing to my parent.

That's not necessarily what God wants.  It can seem so, I don't deny the words indicate this.  Sometimes to bow is simply to acknowledge love or respect.  Other things are included there too.  To love as children love is more in tune with the true meaning, not manipulation and control.

[TheJackel]

But that is not the context we are using, so this analogy fails.

I can appreciate this "other" point, however when I mention 'fear' in context of fearing God, it is simply that...a healty fear that one knows more than another and that one has more power than the other.  It's not necessarily the fear of pain and doom.  I've already acknowledged that certainly some view it and hold to their "faith" by the fear of pain and doom.  

I don't know/recall ever telling someone they are going to hell.  Now, I do joke about it (which is probably wrong) and in instances I may tell someone that has just cheated on their taxes, run a red light..."You're going to hell!"  But this is in context of a friend.  However as a point of me "knowing" for certain that someone is going to hell and thus proclaiming it as fact, is just wrong.  I don't know you or anyone's heart (which is where our true identity and beliefs is), or our inner-selfs.  I cannot presume that you will remain an Atheist all your life.  I don't know that.  You may be sure of it, but that's your own knowledge of yourself.  From a Christian perspective, I cannot do this knowing that only God knows each of us in our heart and knows what each will choose.  I don't know that so for me to make a judgment and use it as a scare-tactic is so wrong.  I would not hesitate to tell another Christian doing this that he/she is wrong in doing so and possibly even damning themselves in doing so.  If it interests you, you may want to ask your mother again and make sure it is the unhealthy fear she serves God from.  Maybe you took it wrong or maybe you're right.  I don't know.

What is fact (fact if the Bible is correct) is that choice is given.  If a person has chosen to disbelieve, then the consequence is hell...but more specifically the consequence is death.  Now, as an Atheist, you don't have a problem with death as you know in your heart that one day you will die.  I don't think anyone disputes this point.  So to say God is some kind of demon or fear-monger in making one choice death and another choice life...it just seems to go overboard.  You're an Atheist and at this time (again if the Bible is true) and Christ comes...you've made your choice and what is there more to say.  Of course you can protest that there were no clues, evidence, warnings...whatever else, or you can curse God for not giving you what you wanted to believe and simply die...as you would if there were no God.  I'm not sure what scares you specifically.  Would you like to elaborate?  I don't wish to debate you, but maybe I can shed some light on the subject or at least give you a different perspective.

And if we are the so-called 'children' of this God, why must we bow to him? You don't see me bowing to my parent.

That's not necessarily what God wants.  It can seem so, I don't deny the words indicate this.  Sometimes to bow is simply to acknowledge love or respect.  Other things are included there too.  To love as children love is more in tune with the true meaning, not manipulation and control.

You continuously try to rationalize eternal damnation, and the burning in Hell as some sort of rational "Healthy Fear tool". And even the mention of death is playing on peoples fears to indoctrinate them into the ideology, and to control them from leaving it. Do you even know how brainwashing works? You clearly have no concept of how this is used in religion. And when it comes to choices, you clearly don't comprehend what a "Free agent" is. Hence, what free will is. Forced servitude to worshiping him or damnation is pretty screwed up! You may as well be worshiping Hitler or face getting burned alive.  

And BTW, Any "GOD" that would damn you to burn in hell because you didn't believe in him is psychologically fucked up. And that is a real big EGO there that needs some serious therapy. No matter how you try to rationalize this as "LOVE", you can never magically make Damnation to burn in hell sound "Loving"..  Especially from a Deity that is said to have committed genocide just because he was sorry for ever creating man. Read the Genesis quotes and you clearly see what can be best described as a psychopath. Behaviors commonly found in serial killers. Not much love there vs Anger and Hate..

[Tank]

{snip}
Or the unicorn currently nibbling my ear.... it kind of tickles. -giggles-

[The Magic Pudding]

{snip}
Or the unicorn currently nibbling my ear.... it kind of tickles. -giggles-

That would sound sweet if it wasn't coming from a cavern mouthed zombie.  

[Gawen]

(My 40 cents - adjusted to inflation)

If you're a Calvinist (Protestant), you have no choice; no free will. God already knows who's going to Heaven or Hell. Being omni - God, he's known this from time immemorial. Of course, we all know the problems of an omni - God has existing, etc.

[Cross]

{snip}
Or the unicorn currently nibbling my ear.... it kind of tickles. -giggles-

That would sound sweet if it wasn't coming from a cavern mouthed zombie.  

Yeah, Tank, your avatar scares meh DDD:

It really does >.>

[Asmodean]

Yeah, Tank, your avatar scares meh DDD:

It really does >.>

Oh come ON people! Am I the only one who wants a super hi-res of it as a desktop background on my BIG screen?  :hmm: Is tank maybe a zombified form of SSY..?  :raised:

[Cross]

Yeah, Tank, your avatar scares meh DDD:

It really does >.>

Oh come ON people! Am I the only one who wants a super hi-res of it as a desktop background on my BIG screen?  :hmm: Is tank maybe a zombified form of SSY..?  :raised:

.... -cries at the sight of zombie again-

T^T

No want DDD:<

I always keep hearing about Jesus being a zombie, and I hate zomibes >_<

They creep me out... >.>

[The Magic Pudding]

A tiled SSY is hard to beat.

[Tank]

That would sound sweet if it wasn't coming from a cavern mouthed zombie.  

[Asmodean]

It's my Halloween avatar, it will revert on Monday  

[AnimatedDirt]

Hi Jackel...thx for your points and interest.  I'll do my best to answer or at least bring a little light on the subject from a point of view that differs from yours.  

You continuously try to rationalize eternal damnation, and the burning in Hell as some sort of rational "Healthy Fear tool".

I think you may be misunderstanding the original point.  It was not of hell, but simply fearing God for who He is.  A healthy fear like that of a child toward a parent, fearing consequences for doing things against the parent's wish or home "law".  My mention of fear had nothing to do with hell.

And even the mention of death is playing on peoples fears to indoctrinate them into the ideology, and to control them from leaving it.

I hardly think any one has the idea that they will live forever (leaving aside the Christian afterlife) and have no added fears in death than we already know to be true and inevitable.

Do you even know how brainwashing works? You clearly have no concept of how this is used in religion.

Actually I thought I had a good idea, however I did a quick search and found a few things not remotely in common such as sleep deprivation, starvation, separation from others, constant fear of physical harm...(now if you call hell a constant fear of harm, I would tend to agree if hell is the main point, which it's not...and even if, hell is a distant pain and not the here and now in typical brainwashing techniques)

And when it comes to choices, you clearly don't comprehend what a "Free agent" is. Hence, what free will is.

If you give me what it is, then I can agree or disagree.

Forced servitude to worshiping him or damnation is pretty screwed up! You may as well be worshiping Hitler or face getting burned alive.

It could be you misunderstand God...or in the least differ on interpretation of God and what He is or does.

If I may use a crude and less than perfect analogy of what God is.  Let's assume God is FIRE and nothing is able to abide with Him that isn't fire.  Everything else would simply burn up in His presence.  God's delight. if you will, is making other beings in His likeness (otherwise they can't exist) and so He creates small lighters that while they burn as He does, can exist with Him, not to mention He "ran His thumb on the wheel creating the spark that ignited the flame.  Initially, there is no need for filling the fuel reservoir as God keeps it full.  Then one lighter consumed by pride, thinks itself able to sustain its own life apart from God, having freewill.  Once that decision is made and the created separates itself from that which brings it life, the reservoir is now being consumed and will run out eventually.  I'm hoping you understand my crude analogy, it's not meant to be perfect, but simply to convey a point.  I think at this point I can ask the question, Is it God's fault, and so cruel of Him or Hitler-like, that the created chooses to separate and become something that cannot exist with Him?   The lighter then begins to influence others to think the same and so they also separate.  Basically they are believing one over the other.  It's not simply "believing IN God", but belief that without God, life is temporal.  That without God, eventually everything not being fed by God for life will burn simply because there is no other way...if God is God.  If God is Fire, can He change that nothing can survive Fire that isn't a fire also?

And BTW, Any "GOD" that would damn you to burn in hell because you didn't believe in him is psychologically fucked up. And that is a real big EGO there that needs some serious therapy. No matter how you try to rationalize this as "LOVE", you can never magically make Damnation to burn in hell sound "Loving".

Is it loving to force someone to believe if they don't?  Having the same "evidence" (I acknowledge "you" don't think there is evidence) to believe, yet many think there is, or not to believe (as this forum is evidence of the latter) is it not truly free will?  If you know the consequences IF this rediculous notion is true, have you not chosen your path?  It seems so and you are comfortable and confident in it, are you not?  It's not EFF'd up at all.  You already know what your choice brings and you disagree with God.  You are free to disagree and live out your life and either way, you and I will die whether God exists or He doesn't.

Especially from a Deity that is said to have committed genocide just because he was sorry for ever creating man. Read the Genesis quotes and you clearly see what can be best described as a psychopath. Behaviors commonly found in serial killers. Not much love there vs Anger and Hate..

Have you never heard of a parent being "sorry" a child was born just to see the path the child's life has lead.  Does that remorse remove the love and hope that was in the child at the beginning?

[TheJackel]

Hi Jackel...thx for your points and interest.  I'll do my best to answer or at least bring a little light on the subject from a point of view that differs from yours.  

You continuously try to rationalize eternal damnation, and the burning in Hell as some sort of rational "Healthy Fear tool".

I think you may be misunderstanding the original point.  It was not of hell, but simply fearing God for who He is.  A healthy fear like that of a child toward a parent, fearing consequences for doing things against the parent's wish or home "law".  My mention of fear had nothing to do with hell.

And even the mention of death is playing on peoples fears to indoctrinate them into the ideology, and to control them from leaving it.

I hardly think any one has the idea that they will live forever (leaving aside the Christian afterlife) and have no added fears in death than we already know to be true and inevitable.

Do you even know how brainwashing works? You clearly have no concept of how this is used in religion.

Actually I thought I had a good idea, however I did a quick search and found a few things not remotely in common such as sleep deprivation, starvation, separation from others, constant fear of physical harm...(now if you call hell a constant fear of harm, I would tend to agree if hell is the main point, which it's not...and even if, hell is a distant pain and not the here and now in typical brainwashing techniques)

And when it comes to choices, you clearly don't comprehend what a "Free agent" is. Hence, what free will is.

If you give me what it is, then I can agree or disagree.

Forced servitude to worshiping him or damnation is pretty screwed up! You may as well be worshiping Hitler or face getting burned alive.

It could be you misunderstand God...or in the least differ on interpretation of God and what He is or does.

If I may use a crude and less than perfect analogy of what God is.  Let's assume God is FIRE and nothing is able to abide with Him that isn't fire.  Everything else would simply burn up in His presence.  God's delight. if you will, is making other beings in His likeness (otherwise they can't exist) and so He creates small lighters that while they burn as He does, can exist with Him, not to mention He "ran His thumb on the wheel creating the spark that ignited the flame.  Initially, there is no need for filling the fuel reservoir as God keeps it full.  Then one lighter consumed by pride, thinks itself able to sustain its own life apart from God, having freewill.  Once that decision is made and the created separates itself from that which brings it life, the reservoir is now being consumed and will run out eventually.  I'm hoping you understand my crude analogy, it's not meant to be perfect, but simply to convey a point.  I think at this point I can ask the question, Is it God's fault, and so cruel of Him or Hitler-like, that the created chooses to separate and become something that cannot exist with Him?   The lighter then begins to influence others to think the same and so they also separate.  Basically they are believing one over the other.  It's not simply "believing IN God", but belief that without God, life is temporal.  That without God, eventually everything not being fed by God for life will burn simply because there is no other way...if God is God.  If God is Fire, can He change that nothing can survive Fire that isn't a fire also?

And BTW, Any "GOD" that would damn you to burn in hell because you didn't believe in him is psychologically fucked up. And that is a real big EGO there that needs some serious therapy. No matter how you try to rationalize this as "LOVE", you can never magically make Damnation to burn in hell sound "Loving".

Is it loving to force someone to believe if they don't?  Having the same "evidence" (I acknowledge "you" don't think there is evidence) to believe, yet many think there is, or not to believe (as this forum is evidence of the latter) is it not truly free will?  If you know the consequences IF this rediculous notion is true, have you not chosen your path?  It seems so and you are comfortable and confident in it, are you not?  It's not EFF'd up at all.  You already know what your choice brings and you disagree with God.  You are free to disagree and live out your life and either way, you and I will die whether God exists or He doesn't.

Especially from a Deity that is said to have committed genocide just because he was sorry for ever creating man. Read the Genesis quotes and you clearly see what can be best described as a psychopath. Behaviors commonly found in serial killers. Not much love there vs Anger and Hate..

Have you never heard of a parent being "sorry" a child was born just to see the path the child's life has lead.  Does that remorse remove the love and hope that was in the child at the beginning?

Again you are resorting to circular arguments of rationalization.. Parents don't murder their kids in mass genocide. Would you toss your child into the oven and cook them alive because they disobey you and go their own way in life?  It's no wonder why so many theists a psychologically screwed up. Then you have the Parents that drowned their Kids in the bathtub because they are sorry for ever having them, or to "protect" them from demons ect.

And when it comes to omnipotence, you have a lot to learn how that is a logical fallacy. Especially when it comes to "Free will". And I won't even go into the stupidity it would take for an all knowing deity to create life that would be disobedient to his will and then burn them in hell for doing so. It's retarded to begin with. And for the record, omnipotence is impossible, as it's a direct self-contradiction.

Worst of all, you can't create reality when yourself is equally bound to require it materially and physically. Can't create complexity, consciousness, existence, time, or even the container to one's self so one's self can have a place to actually exist. GOD's are nonsensical self-contradictions.. And consciousness is only observability of reality and not the creator of.

[AnimatedDirt]

Again you are resorting to circular arguments of rationalization.. Parents don't murder their kids in mass genocide. Would you toss your child into the oven and cook them alive because they disobey you and go their own way in life?  It's no wonder why so many theists a psychologically screwed up. Then you have the Parents that drowned their Kids in the bathtub because they are sorry for ever having them, or to "protect" them from demons ect.

And when it comes to omnipotence, you have a lot to learn how that is a logical fallacy. Especially when it comes to "Free will". And I won't even go into the stupidity it would take for an all knowing deity to create life that would be disobedient to his will and then burn them in hell for doing so. It's retarded to begin with. And for the record, omnipotence is impossible, as it's a direct self-contradiction.

Worst of all, you can't create reality when yourself is equally bound to require it materially and physically. Can't create complexity, consciousness, existence, time, or even the container to one's self so one's self can have a place to actually exist. GOD's are nonsensical self-contradictions.. And consciousness is only observability of reality and not the creator of.

I thought a discussion might be in the works, I suppose I was wrong.  Have a great day.

[TheJackel]

I thought a discussion might be in the works, I suppose I was wrong.  Have a great day.

You seemed to be digging for one, so I gave it to you. You wanted to play a circular game of rationality as if you could magically make irrationality rational. And your GOD didn't just kill baby humans in it's little tantrum within the book of Genesis, He basically drowned hundreds of billions of living organisms in a giant bathtub(Earth) because he was sorry for creating man. That includes baby bunnies, little lion cubs, and baby elephants. I'm sure animals love to drown. And what's worse is that said magical sky fairy could only come up with violence and irrational logic to try and fix his little problem that he supposedly created. Only a heartless genocidal maniac would do that kind of thing. And we will just skip the fact that there isn't enough water and ice on this planet to cause water levels to rise any higher than 250 ft  above sea level. .. It's just nonsensical.

Now when it comes to parenting, you don't mortify your children with threats of death, or burning them in the oven. Any parent that verbally abuses or threatens their kids ought to have their kids taken away from them until they can get some serious therapy. There is no rationalizing inappropriate use of fear. That's not how LOVE works.