[GAYtheist]

OK, here's an interesting thought. With the salinity of the oceans changing so drastically, and they would have, even after the so called flood, wouldn't they have necessitated the mid-Atlantic current changing? Forcing it to alter the weather patterns across the globe and likely causing an ice-age all over again? Sure, it would have taken a couple of hundred years, but the effect would likely be felt today.

Thoughts?

[Tank]

I personally don't believe the ark was a real, physical object. And the flood may have been more of a myth/story for entertainment. However I wonder if the ark is supposed to be representative of the human body as the ark/carrier of the soul/spirit.

Prea. While you're world view is just that, yours, forgive me if it sounds so woolly as to be next to useless in actually describe a world in which we can function. As anything is possibly, nearly nothing is probably, so shouldn't we treasure those things we have found probable and not just spout rubbish 'could be's' in the vague hope they might just explain what's going on?

[Gawen]

But Tank....back in the old days people thought in different terms....allegorically, metaphorically, emblematically, figuratively, parabolically, symbolizing, confusing, mysteriously, obscure, perplexing, puzzling, vague ... you know... not representative.

Can you even imagine what the recipe for matzo balls would have read like???

[Tank]

But Tank....back in the old days people thought in different terms....allegorically, metaphorically, emblematically, figuratively, parabolically, symbolizing, confusing, mysteriously, obscure, perplexing, puzzling, vague ... you know... not representative.

Can you even imagine what the recipe for matzo balls would have read like???

Noooooo!!!! And I don't want to either  

[Martin TK]

Know what I find interesting, the Old Testament is the book of the Jews, and even THEY know that it's NOT an historical book.  It's all allegory and as Lewis Black says, and I paraphrase, it's mostly full of sh*t.

The "MYTH" of the flood is just that, and it makes no sense to think of it as a historical event.  First off, there is simply NO WAY that the story can be true in that there is simply no way to get two of every species from all corners of the world to the middle east.  Secondly, come on, IF and a really big IF, god exists, why would he need to flood the earth to punish man, why kill everything to punish just one species?  Secondly, why not just zap all evil men with a heart attack, seems a lot more efficient, and surely god would understand heart attacks, even back then, being that he has all knowledge.  Well, you get the idea.

So, the argument for or against the Flood, is pretty much over.  I don't know any educated theologians who believe the flood is an actual event, except for the evangelical faith-heads.

[KDbeads]

But Tank....back in the old days people thought in different terms....allegorically, metaphorically, emblematically, figuratively, parabolically, symbolizing, confusing, mysteriously, obscure, perplexing, puzzling, vague ... you know... not representative.

Can you even imagine what the recipe for matzo balls would have read like???

Noooooo!!!! And I don't want to either  :mad:   It's bad enough there are a million different versions of the recipe

[Gawen]

But Tank....back in the old days people thought in different terms....allegorically, metaphorically, emblematically, figuratively, parabolically, symbolizing, confusing, mysteriously, obscure, perplexing, puzzling, vague ... you know... not representative.

Can you even imagine what the recipe for matzo balls would have read like???

Noooooo!!!! And I don't want to either  :mad:   It's bad enough there are a million different versions of the recipe

*laffin*

[KDbeads]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!  Don't screw with my matzo balls :hissyfit:

*laffin*

I bet you are, I actually tried to think about how someone could describe just one version of the recipe in those different terms.....  Woke me up in the middle of the night with a headache.

[deekayfry]

But Tank....back in the old days people thought in different terms....allegorically, metaphorically, emblematically, figuratively, parabolically, symbolizing, confusing, mysteriously, obscure, perplexing, puzzling, vague ... you know... not representative.

Can you even imagine what the recipe for matzo balls would have read like???

Noooooo!!!! And I don't want to either  :mad:   It's bad enough there are a million different versions of the recipe :hmm:  never had it...

[KDbeads]

Noooooo!!!! And I don't want to either  :mad:   It's bad enough there are a million different versions of the recipe :hmm:  never had it...

In that case no matzo ball soup for you on Sunday  :drool

[lundberg500]

Genesis 7:19 "And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered."

Genesis 8:21 "And the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. "

Genesis 9:11 "Neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth."

Genesis 9:15 "And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh."

How much more clear can you get that this flood story pertains to wiping out ALL of mankind across the WHOLE earth? God said "every thing living" and "destroy the earth" and "every living creature". He is not quoted as saying every living thing just in a certain small area. Christians who try and claim that the flood only pertained to a small area are delusional and are rationalizing to try and make sense of obvious problems with this story. Christians HAVE to get good at rationalizing. It's the only way they can survive in a world slowly but surely coming to their senses and getting away from the supernatural and superstitious myths.

According to the Old Testament, god clearly promised no more floods like the one in Noah's time. However, local floods have ravaged the earth down through the ages, killing millions. So, if the flood of Noah was local, it would contradict God's promise. If the flood was worldwide, it would not contradict his promise. The whole point of the myth pertains to god being unhappy with ALL of his people and he is going to start over wiping them ALL away except for the animals and eight chosen people.

Of course the idea of an ark that would contain all these animals is both ludicrous and impossible. Anyone with any sort of intelligence should be able to figure that out. So, it's not logical to even bother with trying to figure out dimensions and show how impossible it would be for an ark to hold that many animals. Christians claiming that they don't know how god did it but he did are completely delusional. Anytime a Christian takes the flood story as literal get them to answer why the Egyptian records at this time go completely uninterrupted and why the great pyramids in Giza are there.

This great flood, according to the bible, supposedly occurred around the year 2348-2345 BCE. The Bible provides the approximate year of the flood. The New Testament contains a genealogy for Jesus that stretches all the way from Jesus to Adam. The Bible lists ages for all the people involved, and when they were born. Therefore, you can track back to the date of Noah's flood to about 2348-2345 BCE. This time falls smack in the middle of the period in history known as the BRONZE AGE. (3000-1200 BCE) This was a significant period in history. The technology to forge bronze increased trade routes, necessitated the domestication of draft horses, the invention of bellows, ox carts, potters wheels, as well as the invention of the plow for cultivating the soil. These were great advances. If there had been a global flood, it would have set civilization back to the Stone Age and it would have taken centuries to recover what was lost.

The Great Pyramid of Cheops was built about 2566 BCE. The Djoser Step Pyramid was built about 2630 BCE. No pyramids in Egypt show any signs of having been under water.  Likewise for many other ancient structures.  But even more importantly, the Egyptians have continuous historical records for hundreds of years before and after the time of the flood that make no mention of a great flood.  This shows that they were not only not aware of a global flood, they certainly were not greatly affected by one. Did anyone fail to tell the Egyptians that they were being wiped off the face of the earth by a great flood created by the Hebrew god? No, that's because it didn't happen.

One cannot deny the existence of archeological evidence that many great civilizations existed in various parts of the world at the time of the Flood and continued through it. If Noah's flood had been universal, all civilizations would have been destroyed along with their inventions, language, art and whatever other advancement each unique civilization would have made. History does not reveal gaps or a large void in any of these cultures which would be the natural result of a catastrophic event such as a global flood.

Christians who actually believe this story would have to totally ignore historically evidence of many large civilizations across the world that were in existence at this time and continued to exist after 2400 BCE, not just the Egyptians. The Minoan civilization on the island of Crete entered a period of cultural advancement around 2500 BCE. They had already produced works of art, established cities, created an alphabet, and made use of bronze prior to the date of the supposed flood. It continued to develop and was established as a center of trade until is was destroyed by a volcano in 1470 BCE. Phoenicia was a thriving trade center which existed before, during and after the flood. Civilizations such as the Sumerians, Akkadians, Babylonians, Indus Valley, Yao Dynasty in China, Japanese, American Indians, African tribes, etc. All of these civilizations were in existence before the Noah story's date and continued to exist after. That's because this event did not happen. There is no evidence that any of these millions of people suddenly disappeared from history and then suddenly re-appeared all over the world carrying the same culture, art, language, writing and architectural designs -- unique to each civilization.

The Noah flood story is just a Hebrew version of the older Gilgamesh flood story that had been circulating for many, many years before from the Sumerians. This story had versions by the Sumerians, Akkadians, and later the Babylonians. It's a story only.

[andersbranderud]

Tehilim [de-Judaized to “Psalms”] often corroborates that the logical universe reflects its Perfect Creator.“ It is also possible to prove the existence of an Orderly Creator â€" using formal logic based on scientific premises and that Torah contains His Instructions. [Click on this link.]

“The popular concept of miracle as contradicting the natural / physical laws is a logical impossibility, since they the product of ha-Sheim, the physical laws must be perfect. Therefore, a contradiction would render ha-Sheim imperfect; and it follows that such contradictions cannot exist in the Jewish Bible.”    [li]

“Immutability: Malakhi 3.6â€""Because I am ha-Sheim, I do not change." The unchanging Order and Logic of the Omniscient Creator-Singularity of the universe is reflected in His unchanging laws (formal logic; mathematics, physics and hard sciences) that govern it. The clearer you're able to see and understand His Reflection, the clearer you will perceive and understand Himâ€"and His Ways.”
The above paragraphs implies that neither did the event describe about Noakh contradict The Orderly Creators’ Orderly laws of nature.

Here is a quote refering to findings that has found this local event of a flood that took place:
"Logic, historical documentation, archeology and science are not threats to Tor•âh′. To the contrary, they illuminate Tor•âh′. Logic and science threaten only modern interpreters who mindlessly regurgitate Medieval interpretations. To immunize your children against secularism, as well as against Christianity, you must apply yourselves to learning how logic and science reconcile with Tor•âh′; and be prepared to discard interpretations that conflict with the Creator of logic and science in our universeâ€"in other words, interpretations of Tor•âh′ that actually conflict with Tor•âh′.  (..)

In No′akh, we find that hâ-Arettz was drowned in the Mabul [flood]. Our children learn in science that no flood could have covered the entire world with water; it's scientifically impossible. So, they begin to doubt Torah′ because the rabbis flunk physics, because they tell our children that their Medieval perspectives are identical to Tor•âh′. That is our fault, not Torâh′'s fault.

Today, we know the world is globular. But, in the time that the account of No′akh was first related, hâ-Aretz referred to "the civilized world"â€"of a family: âdâm, then No′akh. The account in Torâh′ relates No′akh's perspective, not our modern perspective.

Not surprisingly to me, scientists have found the area where the Mabul′ occurred. We know this area as the Black Sea. Scientists know that it was once landlocked, with far less water. The natural land bridge to the west formed a dam against the Mediterranean. It fragmented over time, due to tectonic shifting. Finally, during a torrential rain, the natural land dam, between what is now the Black Sea and the Mediterranean burst; and the Mediterranean flooded the Black Sea. Corroborating this, the ark came to rest on the nearby Ararat Mountains in Turkey. Even if we find this phenomenon wrong one day; nevertheless, it is this type of logical and scientific explanation that has the potential to prove correct one day. No less importantly, it is also this type of explanation that your child can rely on, and relate to, their intelligent and educated peers when they encounter questions in and after high school." (Above quotes from: {url=www.netzarim.co.il]Netzarim[/url])

Noakh was commanded to bring with him the animals. This does not imply that he had to go all around the world to bring in animals. ×"ארץ (the word used) referred to where he lived and the world he knew about.

Anders Branderud

[Category]

Love this forum more and more every day, never have I learned so many raw facts online as the first page of this thread

[lundberg500]

Andersbranderud,

Another person who believes in the Noah's ark story.  

[Gawen]

Today, we know the world is globular. But, in the time that the account of No′akh was first related, hâ-Aretz referred to "the civilized world"â€"of a family: âdâm, then No′akh. The account in Torâh′ relates No′akh's perspective, not our modern perspective.

The account in the Torah relates Noah's perspective because it was written by ancient Hebrews who lacked the modern knowledge that we have today. This shows that the bible was not a divinely inspired writing. It was written by man with the very limited knowledge he had at that time. Did the Hebrew god also lack this knowdlege that we have today? Shouldn't this god have known everything pertaining to the world in which in he created?

Logic and science threaten only modern interpreters who mindlessly regurgitate Medieval interpretations. To immunize your children against secularism, as well as against Christianity, you must apply yourselves to learning how logic and science reconcile with Tor•âh

This is just sad, really sad ....   :|

But then, the next scientific verse tell us:
20 " 'All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be detestable to you.
21  There are, however, some winged creatures that walk on all fours that you may eat: those that have jointed legs for hopping on the ground.
22 Of these you may eat any kind of locust, katydid, cricket or grasshopper.
23 But all other winged creatures that have four legs you are to detest.

Notice the back pedaling as well.
20) ALL
21) Wait, there are a few
22) here's the few

And of course, the biblical definition of pi is 3, not 3.14.

The biblical god is an idiot. Even in 'Noah's day'.