Could an atheist ever be elected as the U.S. President?

[The Magic Pudding]

Australia's longest serving Labor Prime Minister Bob Hawke was an atheist.
His government seemed to encourage people to be better.
Indigenous rights and helping the poor was a priority.
A subsequent theist conservative used race and self interest to gain votes.

And perhaps Bob's greatest achievement

His academic achievements were complemented by setting a new world speed record for beer drinking: a yard glass (approximately 3 imperial pints or 1.7 litres) in eleven seconds.

[karadan]

Yes, unless we stop the tide of atheism, an atheist president may well be elected. Probably not in the next thirty years, but surely within the next 100 years. I would rather not live to see that day. Because just as Hitler was elected on nationalism and antisemitic sentiments, so it would be that if an atheist president was elected, it would be because a large majority of the population were atheist.

But look at England. The Church of England has been spiritually bankrupt since Henry the VIII and yet all the prime ministers are "Christian."

But atheism is spreading fast among young people, and if we don't stop it somehow, it will devour civilization.

I know I'm going to do my part.

When that day comes, i'll be laughing at the knowledge Edward the Dick, i mean, theist, will be going mental.

[humblesmurph]

I think political parties play a percentages game.
There is usually only a few percentage points between candidates.
Most voters are firmly attached to one party or the other.
Atheism is an issue that will alienate some loyal voters.
If the atheist factor is likely to reduce your vote by more than 1-2% it doesn't seem viable.

But forever is long time, maybe one day Oprah will renounce god and run for the job.

This makes sense to me (well, maybe not the Oprah part, there aren't any very famous black female atheists).  Given the great divide between the red and the blue that seems to be getting bigger, a worldview that turns off even a small percentage of the voters is likely to doom a candidate.  According to a poll done 3 years ago, only 45% of Americans would vote for an otherwise qualified atheist candidate.  I don't believe a political breakdown is provided, but I think it safe to assume that there are significant numbers on both sides of the aisle.

http://positivethought.org/index.php/bl ... -president

Btw, we still haven't elected a black president.  Mr. Obama is clearly biracial. His mother was white, and he was raised by white people.  If not for his half whiteness, he likely wouldn't have beaten out Ms. Clinton.  Atheism is an-all in proposition, one can't be half atheist.  Atheism will likely have to wait it's turn behind the race/gender/sexual orientation/religious breakthroughs to the presidency.  My guess: 200 years.

[Thumpalumpacus]

This makes sense to me (well, maybe not the Oprah part, there aren't any very famous black female atheists).

Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Given the great divide between the red and the blue that seems to be getting bigger, a worldview that turns off even a small percentage of the voters is likely to doom a candidate.  According to a poll done 3 years ago, only 45% of Americans would vote for an otherwise qualified atheist candidate.  I don't believe a political breakdown is provided, but I think it safe to assume that there are significant numbers on both sides of the aisle.

http://positivethought.org/index.php/bl ... -president

I haven't found a breakdown of the ages of the recipients, but I would direct you to earlier iterations of the same poll.  The numbers show an unbroken trend towards more and more acceptance.  This indicates a generational mindset is at work in this poll, and in the nation at large, hopefully.

Btw, we still haven't elected a black president.  Mr. Obama is clearly biracial. His mother was white, and he was raised by white people.  If not for his half whiteness, he likely wouldn't have beaten out Ms. Clinton.

[Emphasis added]

This will forever remain in the realm of hypothesis.  That Obama has been called a "nigger", however, is a fact; and I would argue that that is the salient fact of his election -- that such bigotry has waned.  A significant point too is that a disproportionately large slice of President Obama's support came from youth, indicating that they are happy to discard the prejudices of their parents.

Atheism is an-all in proposition, one can't be half atheist.  Atheism will likely have to wait it's turn behind the race/gender/sexual orientation/religious breakthroughs to the presidency.  My guess: 200 years.

I'm not so sure about this first sentence.  Pure agnostics might argue with it.

[humblesmurph]

This makes sense to me (well, maybe not the Oprah part, there aren't any very famous black female atheists).

Ayaan Hirsan Ali.

Given the great divide between the red and the blue that seems to be getting bigger, a worldview that turns off even a small percentage of the voters is likely to doom a candidate.  According to a poll done 3 years ago, only 45% of Americans would vote for an otherwise qualified atheist candidate.  I don't believe a political breakdown is provided, but I think it safe to assume that there are significant numbers on both sides of the aisle.

http://positivethought.org/index.php/bl ... -president

I haven't found a breakdown of the ages of the recipients, but I would direct you to look at earlier iterations of the same poll.  The numbers show an unbroken trend towards more and more acceptance.  This indicates a generational mindset is at work in this poll, and in the nation at large, hopefully.

Btw, we still haven't elected a black president.  Mr. Obama is clearly biracial. His mother was white, and he was raised by white people.  If not for his half whiteness, he likely wouldn't have beaten out Ms. Clinton.

[Emphasis added]

This will forever remain in the realm of hypothesis.  The fact that Obama has been called a "nigger", however, is a fact; and I would argue that that is the salient fact of his election -- that such bigotry has waned.  A significant point too is that a disproportionately large slice of President Obama's support came from youth, indicating that they are happy to discard the prejudices of their parents.

Atheism is an-all in proposition, one can't be half atheist.  Atheism will likely have to wait it's turn behind the race/gender/sexual orientation/religious breakthroughs to the presidency.  My guess: 200 years.

I'm not so sure about this first sentence.  Pure agnostics might argue with it.

Not that she doesn't count, but Ali is likely not "very famous" to the US voting public.  

I recognize that we are trending in the right direction, acceptance of atheism is certainly on the rise.  

Obama has been called nigger.  That doesn't change the fact that he's half white and was raised by whites.  Hard core racists don't have a monopoly on bigotry.  It's been my experience that many people that wouldn't consider themselves "racists" hold significant racial biases.  I've worked with people who wouldn't consider themselves racist, would never use the word nigger, and worked very hard to get Obama elected.  Many of these same people shudder at the thought of having to deal with black people.  I'm a bartender at night and I witness the look of horror when my waiter coworkers have to serve black patrons.  I watch them try to pass the tables off to others.  I watch them in their social circles, very few of their friends are black, and the ones who are "act white".   Not to offend you, but if you think that Mr. Obama would have won the election if he was a dark skinned big lipped brother who spoke with a more stereotypically "black" pitch we just have to agree to disagree.

Pure agnostics might disagree with my all or nothing sentiment.  Respectfully, what one claims to be, and what one is aren't always identical imo.  The answer to the question "do you believe in god?' is yes or no.  One can go back and forth between.  One day I believe, the next I don't.  However, if you say "I don't know" or "I have no opinion", ostensibly, your answer is "no".   If you have no opinion, or don't think of such things, you also aren't praying and doing things in the name of the lord.  Pure agnostics follow the evidence.  The evidence doesn't lead to god imo.  It certainly doesn't lead to allah or yahweh.

[The Magic Pudding]

This makes sense to me (well, maybe not the Oprah part, there aren't any very famous black female atheists).

Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

We have to find someone popular who will overcome the atheist factor that's why I mentioned Oprah.
They do have to be born in the USA as far as I know.
Originally I was thinking along the lines of some hero, perhaps a scientist who leads a team that cures some cancer.
But I know doctors do the work and god gets the credit.

but if you think that Mr. Obama would have won the election if he was a dark skinned big lipped brother who spoke with a more stereotypically "black" pitch we just have to agree to disagree.

Well I still feel good about Obama being elected and I encourage you to feel good about it.
I hope someone who looked and sounded like Martin Luther King could be elected.
What worries me more is how a moron like George W was elected twice and Sarah Palin could ever be considered.

[humblesmurph]

This makes sense to me (well, maybe not the Oprah part, there aren't any very famous black female atheists).

Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

We have to find someone popular who will overcome the atheist factor that's why I mentioned Oprah.
They do have to be born in the USA as far as I know.
Originally I was thinking along the lines of some hero, perhaps a scientist who leads a team that cures some cancer.
But I know doctors do the work and god gets the credit.

Lance Armstrong?  He's an atheist, and those little yellow wristbands have raised a lot of money for cancer research.

[The Magic Pudding]

Lance Armstrong?  He's an atheist, and those little yellow wristbands have raised a lot of money for cancer research.

I ride a bike sometimes and I know car drivers hate bike riders.
I've seen the talk in forums.
I don't think America is ready for a bike riding president.
Not unless he shoots mooses, and attacks some minority group.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Not that she doesn't count, but Ali is likely not "very famous" to the US voting public.  

I wasn't positing her as  a Presidential candidate, but as a famous black female atheist.  There is at least one, though MP's point about her relative general obscurity is certainly fair.

Obama has been called nigger.  That doesn't change the fact that he's half white and was raised by whites.  Hard core racists don't have a monopoly on bigotry.  It's been my experience that many people that wouldn't consider themselves "racists" hold significant racial biases.

Certainly.  But his election is yet a further erosion of the nonsense that we Americans still have to deal with, in the 21st century.  

I've worked with people who wouldn't consider themselves racist, would never use the word nigger, and worked very hard to get Obama elected.  Many of these same people shudder at the thought of having to deal with black people.  I'm a bartender at night and I witness the look of horror when my waiter coworkers have to serve black patrons.  I watch them try to pass the tables off to others.  I watch them in their social circles, very few of their friends are black, and the ones who are "act white".

I'm unsure of the relevance of this passage.

Not to offend you, but if you think that Mr. Obama would have won the election if he was a dark skinned big lipped brother who spoke with a more stereotypically "black" pitch we just have to agree to disagree.

You seem to be confuting genetic and cultural expressions.  If he were dark-skinned but just as eloquent, I don't doubt that he'd still have stood an honest chance.

The answer to the question "do you believe in god?' is yes or no.  One can go back and forth between.  One day I believe, the next I don't.  However, if you say "I don't know" or "I have no opinion", ostensibly, your answer is "no".

Not necessarily.  A pure agnostic, one who says "we cannot know," can still be a theist -- a believer-- or an atheist.  Knowledge and belief are two different things.  Also, RE your examples, "I don't know" is agnostic, and "I have no opinion" would seem to be apatheist.

If you have no opinion, or don't think of such things, you also aren't praying and doing things in the name of the lord.  Pure agnostics follow the evidence.  The evidence doesn't lead to god imo.  It certainly doesn't lead to allah or yahweh.

[Emphasis added]

No.  Pure agnostics argue that evidence is irrelevant because there is no way for us to know at all whether or not any god(s) exist.  They can still believe deeply in god, as did my Jesuit-trained Phi101 prof.

[humblesmurph]

but if you think that Mr. Obama would have won the election if he was a dark skinned big lipped brother who spoke with a more stereotypically "black" pitch we just have to agree to disagree.

Well I still feel good about Obama being elected and I encourage you to feel good about it.
I hope someone who looked and sounded like Martin Luther King could be elected.
What worries me more is how a moron like George W was elected twice and Sarah Palin could ever be considered.

It certainly gives me more faith in the US public that Obama got elected.  I just don't interpret it as a decline in racism.

I too would hope somebody like King could be elected, just not likely in my view as long as whites are in the majority.

The fact that W got into office and Palin came anywhere close points to how far we have to go.  A reasonable man Gore couldn't overcome the stupidity of the American public even after 8 years of relative prosperity with Clinton at the helm.  Kerry did even worse after 4 years of W's demonstrable idiocy.

It took Obama, a transcendent voice of a generation, to eek out victory against a relic (McCain) and a moron (Palin).  I fear we'll find that Obama is an outlier, not an indication of a trend.

[Kylyssa]

Yes, unless we stop the tide of atheism, an atheist president may well be elected. Probably not in the next thirty years, but surely within the next 100 years. I would rather not live to see that day. Because just as Hitler was elected on nationalism and antisemitic sentiments, so it would be that if an atheist president was elected, it would be because a large majority of the population were atheist.

But look at England. The Church of England has been spiritually bankrupt since Henry the VIII and yet all the prime ministers are "Christian."
But atheism is spreading fast among young people, and if we don't stop it somehow, it will devour civilization.

I know I'm going to do my part.

So why are you using Hitler as a bad guy - he was Christian?  Aren't you hurting "your atheism is evil" platform by using nasty Christians as an example?

Playing with the No True Scotsman fallacy again with your quotation marks?

[Kylyssa]

Yes, unless we stop the tide of atheism, an atheist president may well be elected. Probably not in the next thirty years, but surely within the next 100 years. I would rather not live to see that day. Because just as Hitler was elected on nationalism and antisemitic sentiments, so it would be that if an atheist president was elected, it would be because a large majority of the population were atheist.

Why would the majority have to be atheist?  All it would take would be a majority that is not bigoted against atheists.  Australia isn't mostly atheists.

But atheism is spreading fast among young people, and if we don't stop it somehow, it will devour civilization.

I know I'm going to do my part.

You're going to help destroy civilization?  Is it because you are hoping for the Rapture or some silly thing like that?

Or do you mean you are going to try to wipe out atheism by promoting a God (Yahweh) to worship by pointing out the benefits of not burning in Hell and the ability to act outside the laws of man and outside the social contract?  Is it because it's such an injustice that the Bible is mostly not followed anymore.  Do you miss the stonings and the ability to rape a pretty girl so you can marry her?  Or is it slaves you want and without the Bible to endorse slavery you don't know how you'll manage it?  Are you afraid you won't find anywhere in the world it's legal to murder a homosexual or rape a lesbian if the world turns completely away from your God?  Afraid you won't be able to enjoy the vicarious thrill of seeing millions die from AIDS in Africa?   Are you concerned that world population will stabilize to a sustainable level due to the spread of (gasp!) comprehensive science-based sex education if the Bible can no longer convince people to breed like flies?

[The Magic Pudding]

It certainly gives me more faith in the US public that Obama got elected.  I just don't interpret it as a decline in racism.

I too would hope somebody like King could be elected, just not likely in my view as long as whites are in the majority.

White people have done good things.
Some white people said to other white people slavery is wrong and slavery was ended, eventually.
I'm not aware of any society that did that before.
I think white people are getting better, not all at uniform rate it's true.
White people supported the civil rights movement.
Sam Cook heard Dylan's Blowin' In The Wind and wondered why a black person hadn't created it.
White and not so white people have convinced white people to do better.
I think we're getting there.

[humblesmurph]

Not that she doesn't count, but Ali is likely not "very famous" to the US voting public.  

I wasn't positing her as  a Presidential candidate, but as a famous black female atheist.  There is at least one, though MP's point about her relative general obscurity is certainly fair.

Obama has been called nigger.  That doesn't change the fact that he's half white and was raised by whites.  Hard core racists don't have a monopoly on bigotry.  It's been my experience that many people that wouldn't consider themselves "racists" hold significant racial biases.

Certainly.  But his election is yet a further erosion of the nonsense that we Americans still have to deal with, in the 21st century.  

I've worked with people who wouldn't consider themselves racist, would never use the word nigger, and worked very hard to get Obama elected.  Many of these same people shudder at the thought of having to deal with black people.  I'm a bartender at night and I witness the look of horror when my waiter coworkers have to serve black patrons.  I watch them try to pass the tables off to others.  I watch them in their social circles, very few of their friends are black, and the ones who are "act white".

I'm unsure of the relevance of this passage.

Not to offend you, but if you think that Mr. Obama would have won the election if he was a dark skinned big lipped brother who spoke with a more stereotypically "black" pitch we just have to agree to disagree.

You seem to be confuting genetic and cultural expressions.  If he were dark-skinned but just as eloquent, I don't doubt that he'd still have stood an honest chance.

The answer to the question "do you believe in god?' is yes or no.  One can go back and forth between.  One day I believe, the next I don't.  However, if you say "I don't know" or "I have no opinion", ostensibly, your answer is "no".

Not necessarily.  A pure agnostic, one who says "we cannot know," can still be a theist -- a believer-- or an atheist.  Knowledge and belief are two different things.  Also, RE your examples, "I don't know" is agnostic, and "I have no opinion" would seem to be apatheist.

If you have no opinion, or don't think of such things, you also aren't praying and doing things in the name of the lord.  Pure agnostics follow the evidence.  The evidence doesn't lead to god imo.  It certainly doesn't lead to allah or yahweh.

[Emphasis added]

No.  Pure agnostics argue that evidence is irrelevant because there is no way for us to know at all whether or not any god(s) exist.  They can still believe deeply in god, as did my Jesuit-trained Phi101 prof.

In order:

My mentioning US voters assumed too much.  We agree that she is not "very famous".  Not even in the same league as Whoopi or Beyonce...let alone Oprah.

I agree that Obama getting elected means something, I'm just not sure what that is yet.  I'll be more inclined to agree with you when Obama gets a second term.  

The relevance is that racists worked to get Obama elected.  Their support of Obama was not a product of them shunning the racist views of their elders.  In my opinion they supported Obama  because they didn't consider him to be black and/or he was simply a better choice than the alternatives.  If there was an equally engaging white candidate, they likely would have supported her.

I'm not confusing anything, they are intertwined.  If he was raised in a black household, and had two black parents, his physical appearance and his speech would likely be different.  As you stated, there is no way to prove our respective hypotheses.  I strongly disagree with you, I guess I have to leave it at that.

Ours is a problem of semantics.  I use Huxley's definition of the word.  His is about following evidence and not making assumptions not proven.  He coined the term in 1869.  We can split hairs if you like.  Agnostic as you and many others define it, is utterly meaningless.  Nobody has definitive proof of god's existence or non-existence.  I can claim to have it, sure, but that claim is, just like, my opinion man (sorry, just watched Lebowski).  All that really matters is what you believe.  If you believe, you are a theist, if you don't, you are an atheist.  

I don't view god as an idea.  God is an entity that does or does not exist.  There is no middle ground to its existence.  One's opinion about what can or can't be proven is an entirely different matter.   It doesn't make someone less of a theist if they concede that they can't prove their god.  It doesn't make someone less of an atheist if they concede that they can't prove non-existence.  It just makes them honest.

[Kylyssa]

Oh, and to answer the question of whether or not an atheist could be elected as President of the US - I don't think it could happen any time soon.  I think that while we didn't tip to theocracy at the last presidential election (I'd bet this board would be illegal within a few years if McCain/Palin had made it to the White House) I think it's still a very real danger.  

There are more vocal religious extremists in this country now than in any other time in my life.  If it tips that way further, we may never have a non-Christian president unless it swings back.  Some of the population is barely able avoid revolution because the Christian president is half African.  

But if the pendulum doesn't fall on the side of theocracy with the next presidential election, I think we might be capable of having an atheist in the White House within the next 25-50 years.