Re: The (g)od That Exists

[Tank]

but I can't seem to grasp what you are attempting to do here.

If you can't follow the discussion, that's not my fault. :brick:  :brick:

[George]

As for proof. Proof is in the eye of the beholder. I say consciousness exists outside central nervous systems. You say prove it. I show you paramecium. You say that's not consciousness. I show you studies of behavioral training is parameciums, you say that's not proof of anything. I can't win. So, I'm not playing the game.

You can't win! Does that mean you're giving up? I have been reading with interest, although you lost me on a few points and I'm still far from convinced on a few more, you have got me thinking about your idea of consciousness.

Fascinating little blighters them parameciums..

I can't see myself buying this car but I'm enjoying the sales pitch

[Sophus]

As for proof. Proof is in the eye of the beholder. I say consciousness exists outside central nervous systems. You say prove it. I show you paramecium. You say that's not consciousness. I show you studies of behavioral training is parameciums, you say that's not proof of anything. I can't win. So, I'm not playing the game.

Again THIS DOES NOT PROVE ANYTHING. As you yourself have stated, some protozoa exhibit this "consciousness" and others don't. If they need something internally to receive this external sense of consciousness how can this prove anything? It means something from within is already responsible for their consciousness. This alone does not, and cannot, prove the necessity of an external source for their consciousness.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Dude, there's little sense taking Occam's Razor to Jell-O such as this.

[Edward the Theist]

Fascinating little blighters them parameciums..

I can't see myself buying this car but I'm enjoying the sales pitch

It's a long way from parameciums to Jesus Christ. But if consciousness is external to us, then we have to ask where it comes from. To say it's generated from matter, perhaps as a consequence of sub-atomic physics, is a difficult theory to phathom. It seems rather to be like a force, a primary force, perhaps even more primary than gravity. But what is it?

It seems to have the following attributes: awareness, volition, and memory.

And then when you really start contemplating it, you realize you aren't you. You are just matter, like any other matter. Just like the atheists say. The consciousness however remains and it's more than just you--it's everything. It's God.

I mean we have no other term for it.

[Edward the Theist]

Again THIS DOES NOT PROVE ANYTHING. As you yourself have stated, some protozoa exhibit this "consciousness" and others don't. If they need something internally to receive this external sense of consciousness how can this prove anything? It means something from within is already responsible for their consciousness. This alone does not, and cannot, prove the necessity of an external source for their consciousness.

Everything must be prevaded by consciousness to the same degree, or at least proportionately. However, some things have the ability to use consciousness better than others. Some things have senses, muscles, cillia, etc. Some things don't, like trees. All they can do is grow. It would seem the best structure in the world for utilizing consciousness is those creatures that have senses, brains, muscles and skeletons. Humans seem to have the best brains.

That doesn't mean we generate consciousness. It means we are better able to use it. We (along with the other higher mammals) also seem to form a psychological mind to better utilize it.

I must admit, however, at this time, I do not know the way or reason in which a primordial consciousness would begin to form itself into the matter of the universe. When I have that breakthrough, and I am praying for it, that will be the capstone of my theory.

Any brilliant atheists in here have any ideas?

[i_am_i]

It's a long way from parameciums to Jesus Christ. But if consciousness is external to us, then we have to ask where it comes from.

And if it isn't then we don't.

What in the pissing universe are you driving at here?

[The Magic Pudding]

What in the pissing universe are you driving at here?

Nothing yet, we're still waiting for the car.

[Thumpalumpacus]

It's up on blocks, out back.  It's the one with weeds coming up through the engine compartment.

[Tank]

Fascinating little blighters them parameciums..

I can't see myself buying this car but I'm enjoying the sales pitch :verysad:

[George]

It's up on blocks, out back.  It's the one with weeds coming up through the engine compartment.

LOL!

[The Magic Pudding]

It's up on blocks, out back.  It's the one with weeds coming up through the engine compartment.

LOL!

I thought Thumpalumpacus was being generous.
It's more like a ambiguously car shaped shadow, cast by a couple of rocks at a certain time of day, viewed by a member of a species evolved to see patterns in the random.

[J-Buc]

Oh no... it's Edward the Theist. This guy recently got banned from atheistforums.com. I see he's doing nothing different here.

[Asmodean]

Any brilliant atheists in here have any ideas?

Yup. Science right. Bible wrong.  

[Squid]

Something to consider:  Back in the 60's and 70's bacteria were thought to have "memory".  Later on it was simply the interaction of chemotactic sensing upon those proteins involved in chemotaxis.  No actual memory as we think of it in a central nervous system sense but it did change the way the bacteria react to particular chemicals after its first encounter.  I'm surprised no one had mentioned chemotaxis before.