Extreme Religious Beliefs at Brown University?

[chankljp]

Hi. This is my first post here so hopefully I posted this in the right section. Sorry for any spelling and grammar error in advance. English is not my first language.

Anyway, I am a highschool student from China and a few months ago I attended a philosophy and political science summer course at Brown University. During that time I encountered some of the most extreme and frankly disturbing religious beliefs I have every seen. Here is the most memorable conversation Catholic girl at the class during the class on the topic of the existence of God:          

Me: As a Christian, do you believe the concept of hell?
 
Girl: Yes, of course.
 
Me: What do you mean by hell? Is it the traditional version of fire and torture, or is it something else?
 
Girl: Hell is not the presents of evil, just a absents of God. And since God is everything that is good, hell doesn't have anything good at all.
 
Me: So it is still a form of punishment then?
 
Girl: Yes! You godless people want to be away from God, so this is what you will get!
 
Me: At lease for me and for most atheist that I know, we don't just 'want to stay away from God'. The reason we don't believe in he/she/it is because we don't see any proof.
   
Girl: In God's eyes it doesn't matter. All he cares about is that you don't have faith in him.
 
Me: Do you think I am going to hell?
 
Girl: You will hate me for saying this.... But yes, you will.
 
Me: Do you think I deserve it?
 
Girl: Yes.
 
Me: What is the standard that God decides if a person will go to heaven of hell?
 
Girl: The only thing that matters is that you have accepted God and Jesus as you Lord and Savior.
 
Me: That is the only thing that he cares about? Not your moral character or your actions, but your submission?
 
Girl: Yes. Just read the Bible.
 
Me: So are you saying that Adolf Hitler, who was a Catholic, is now enjoying an eternal award?How about Robert Mugabe? His rule put his country into ruins. But he is also a Catholic. Do you think he will go to heaven one day?
 
(At this point I thought that she would use the No True Scotsman augment. But instead, she said this)
 
Girl: Yes, Hitler is heaven right now. He was Christian and so he was awarded for his faith.
 
Me: How about all the Jewish people that he killed in the Final Solution? Are they all in hell?
 
Girl: Yes, they were sinful and rejected Jesus. This alone means that they deserve hell.
     
(Girl continues): Simply put, Hitler is morally superior to you or all the Jews that he killed. He was a Christian, they are not. That is the only thing that matters in God's eyes. This is true justice.
 
(At this point I no longer see the need to keep on the discussion and walked away. She continues on saying how she doesn't believe in evolution and how we humans are fallen and evil. The first thing I did when I return to my room was to remove her from my list of Facebook friends. I don't want to assonate myself with a person like that. )

A second story took place during my first week at Brown in my political science course. The course was rubbish. But there was an event there that I will never forget. I was sitting there chatting with some students, we were talking about politics and most of them agree with my views (capitalism, democracy, etc). They were all impress that I hold such beliefs despite being from a... lets just say less liberal country.  Everything went well until at one point I mentioned that I am what most people consider an atheist. A number of people in the group just walked away from me. One of them even gave me a disgusted look. I am not talking about a disapproval look that my friend's dad gave me. But a look of complete disgust. It was the type of look that you have when you see someone wearing a Nazi T-shirt walking into a holocaust museum and eating pork at the same time. It was one of those looks that you will never forget. And the most shocking thing is that only moments ago they were agreeing with everything I said. A simply mention of my lack of faith changed everything. It was something that I never experienced outside of a religious school.

I have heard and read about these kind of extreme religious statement before, but see someone face to face and having them tell you that makes it an entirely different matter. There are two things that really worries me about this. First of all, from what I know, Brown is suppose to be one of the most progressive and liberal universities in America. If that is the cases, does that mean these radical religious beliefs are considered to be common in America? I have American friends from the Deep South in the so called 'Bible Belt', but I never even seen anything like this. Secondly, that Catholic girl I talked to wasn't an ignore fool (school grade wise). She received top SAT scores and is well on her way to get in other Ivy League universities. This makes me wonder, are such beliefs common in the Intellectuals of the US? If so, I think we are all in deep trouble.

Just to avoid any misunderstandings. This post is in no way an attack on Americans. I deeply admire and respect your country and your culture. I was just really shocked my this experience I had and I want to see what others have to say about it.

Anyway, thanks for taking your time to read this. I look forward for your responds.

[Davin]

That is a very disturbing conversation, there are people like that in America.

While there are many people with views this extreme, they're still a minority, many religious people are very decent people that believe that people will ultimately get what they deserve, whether it be a reward or a punishment. I don't remember any where in the bible that said that all you need is faith in god, to get into heaven. But I do remember a hell of a lot about how people should behave (along with god telling people to behave otherwise).

Bugger, I went off on a rant while typing this, so I just edited it out to stay on topic.

Nothing you said is offensive to this American. Your English is very good, just a few phonetically accurate, but meaning something completely different, words that bugged me a little, but I don't really care that much as you got your point across very clearly. Any way, please stick around and make an introduction in the introductions thread: Introductions

[chankljp]

I understand that the religious views expressed by that girl are only hold by the minority. However, the thing that troubles me more that her statement was that not a single person in the entire group other then myself speak out against her. We are talking about an entire room full of philosophy students and not a single one of them dared to say something about such disgusting views.

Thankfully, some of them (even the Christians) same to me after class and apologies for what she had said. But when I asked them why didn't they speak out against her in class, their responds was either 'She is just misguided, God will show her the the error in her ways' (from the Christians), or 'In America it is not a good idea to openly state that you are an atheist.' (from that atheists, which is about 60-70% of the entire class). That is what I find scary, not only does a girl that is so book smart and have such views, but also that no one dare to speak out against her in public in fear of being labeled.

For a lot of people like me that lives in less then democratic countries such as China, America represents something more that just a trading partner. We know that as long as the United States is still here, there is always a place were the principles of human rights will be protected. But after my summer school what I thought was that these students I talked to are that future of America, they will one day become the business and political leaders of tomorrow. And if that is what I am seeing, what will happened to this world?

Anyway, thanks for your responds. I look forward to see what other have to say about this experience I had.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Believe me when I say, there are many of us raising children who reject this nonsense completely, who think for themselves, who are not afraid.  Our biggest problem is that we are quiet, perhaps.

[parrotpirate]

First off, welcome aboard!
Your English is very good for a non-native speaker, I think. I know people here in the states that can't put together sentences that are as coherent.
Are you sure that girl was Catholic?  She sounds a lot more like hard-core fundamentalist to me. That's the kind of thing I'd expect from Baptists or those types.

[chankljp]

To Thumpalumpacus:
I understand. Most American that I met are really wonderful people, no matter what their worldview may be. But I just found my experience there to be really shocking and I wanted to share it with you guys here.

To parrotpirate:
When we all introduce ourselves at the start of the class, she repeatedly state that she is a Catholic. At that day when we had the discussion about the existence of God and the validation of religion, she stood up and told us all that the reason why not everyone in the room is a Christian was because we were all 'proud and sinful' and that they Catholics have 'superior morality'.

And something really funny was that when I basically pwned every single one of her arguments by pointing out the difference between abiogenesis and evolution, she resorted to say some BS along the lines of 'You have been brainwashed by the Communist! That is why you are an Atheist. I will prey for you.' I just looked at her didn't even bother responding. If she actually listen to the other things that I said in class she will realized that I am most likely to be more anti-communist then most American kids of my age.

[pinkocommie]

Sometimes not bothering to respond really is the way to go.  Especially once someone 'threatens' to pray for you.  

[The Magic Pudding]

I wonder if this girl is some strange kind of Catholic.
I don't know much about weird Catholics, but Mel Gibson is supposed to be one.

[SSY]

I wonder if this girl is some strange kind of Catholic.
I don't know much about weird Catholics, but Mel Gibson is supposed to be one.

Opus Dei?

[Tank]

Chan, your anecdotes are by no means unusual from what I have read around the Internet and this is, as you rightly say, scary.

[Martin TK]

Chan, Welcome to America, "Land of the Free to be the Idiot You Want to Be" and trust me people like that young lady take full advantage of the religious freedoms that America provides.  As an American who has been exposed to that kind of extreme dogma, I can honestly say that I have walked away from discussions like the ones you described just shaking and scratching my head.  I am mostly surprised by the younger people who, with all the knowledge and information available today, continue to embrace evangelical dogma.

It is amazing the number of Christians who will treat me with enormous respect, mainly because I hold a PhD and have been published a number of time, until they find out I am an atheist.  I have had people, supposedly respectful and respectable, turn and walk away from me upon finding out that I do not hold their belief system.   My own daughter-in-law and sister-in-law who LOVED me and sought my counsel, turned away from me in an instant when they found out I was not a Christian.  I suddenly was an immoral person to them, even though I have only done right by them and have helped them with numerous issues over the years.

Another thing I find amazing is that those same people, who respect me as a PhD when they "thought" I was Christian, suddenly take issue with my intellect upon finding out I am an atheist.  I have had my intellect challenged by more Christians than I can remember.  It's as if an educated Atheist is a threat to them, in some way.  I was once in a setting, discussing my atheism with a group of theists, and when I mentioned that I held a PhD, suddenly I was being boastful and arrogant and trying to "show off" all my smarts.  It's really amusing, if you think about it... anyway, the gentleman who was at this same discussion, holds a PhD in Theology, and they were perfectly fine with his education.  Amazing.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I've met fundy Catholics.  They're rare, but they're there.

[karadan]

Thanks for the post chankljp. Your English is excellent.

It is a sad situation to hear of such bullish people, especially in an institution there to promote intellect and free thought.

It is posts like this which make me so thankful i wasn't raised in a super religious community. There's been so many posts on this forum recanting such sad stories of people having to deal with the daily onslaught of religious persecution. I don't know how some of you have stayed so sane.  

[KDbeads]

I don't know how some of you have stayed so sane.  

Chan, as much as I would like to say that those were just oddball people and not the norm, I can't.  In rural America those types are the norm, it's frightening. I live in a town full of them and the nearest breath of fresh air and intelligent thought is 94 miles away.