Asking theists the burning questions

[NothingSacred]

What are some of the hard questions you end up having to ask theists? How do you go about asking them? What is the the outcome? The reason I ask is I had a conversation with a theist today about how the bible demands killings. She was outraged by muslim honor killings and I told her the bible demands similar things. She said the ot changed that and I asked her if she would kill her child if she were living in the "old era". I haven't recieved an answer. I feel bad and I wasn't trying to be mean. I was just trying to point and that she was a better person than to do something like that and perhaps the bible isn't as sweet as she believes. I sort of feel like an asshole for being a bit pushy about it but I think people should start being honest with themselves. Im sort of glad a few pushy atheists did it for me. But does that give me the right to do it to others?  

[Sophus]

Both the Bible and the Qur'an contain the laws of Leviticus, which is the book containing most of the absurd laws and their horrible punishments. The only difference is a lot of the muslim countries actually follow it. You could point this out but the response I usually get it, "But Jesus came to change all of that." And then they're finally stumped when I point out Jesus said, ""Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:17-20

[philosoraptor]

Pointing out the contradiction in someone's belief doesn't make you an asshole.  In this case, I'd say the theist's silence speaks volume-she knows you're right.  Otherwise, she would have responded.

If this sort of exchange makes you uncomfortable though, I'd just avoid bringing up these sorts of topics, or declining to share your view when asked about it.  When talking with a theist, it is almost unavoidable to point out at least one contradiction or flaw in their logic.

[Thumpalumpacus]

What are some of the hard questions you end up having to ask theists? How do you go about asking them? What is the the outcome? The reason I ask is I had a conversation with a theist today about how the bible demands killings. She was outraged by muslim honor killings and I told her the bible demands similar things. She said the ot changed that and I asked her if she would kill her child if she were living in the "old era". I haven't recieved an answer. I feel bad and I wasn't trying to be mean. I was just trying to point and that she was a better person than to do something like that and perhaps the bible isn't as sweet as she believes. I sort of feel like an asshole for being a bit pushy about it but I think people should start being honest with themselves. Im sort of glad a few pushy atheists did it for me. But does that give me the right to do it to others?  

It depends on whether they're preaching at you, you guys are having a friendly discussion, or you're trying to get up in their grill.  Context stamps most of our messages.

[NothingSacred]

Actually she got back on and we had a long and civil discussion.I asked her again if she would kill her kid if god asked and she said she didnt know but it was a different time then :shake:


edited because my grammar and syntax are of the devil

[Martin TK]

What are some of the hard questions you end up having to ask theists? How do you go about asking them? What is the the outcome? The reason I ask is I had a conversation with a theist today about how the bible demands killings. She was outraged by muslim honor killings and I told her the bible demands similar things. She said the ot changed that and I asked her if she would kill her child if she were living in the "old era". I haven't recieved an answer. I feel bad and I wasn't trying to be mean. I was just trying to point and that she was a better person than to do something like that and perhaps the bible isn't as sweet as she believes. I sort of feel like an asshole for being a bit pushy about it but I think people should start being honest with themselves. Im sort of glad a few pushy atheists did it for me. But does that give me the right to do it to others?  

This is one of the issues I have with Christians, their interpretation of the OT versus the NT.  They often refer to the OT for things like the ten commandments and their hatred of homosexuality, but then revert to the NT when asked questions like the one you posed.  I believe you have every right to ask the tough questions when having an open discussion with a theist/Christian; so long as you are willing to have your own ideas challenged by them.

I once had a discussion that went something like this:
Theist:  I hate homosexuals, because the bible tells me that it's wrong.
ME:  Where does it say that?
Theist:  In the OT, (he then cites chapter and verse)
ME:  So the OT is a valid book for Christians to follow?
Theist:  Of course it is.
ME:  So, then it's ok for me to stone my children for being disrespectful.
Theist:  Of course not, the New Testament changed all that.
ME:  So, the NT tells us that we should "LOVE our neighbors as ourselves" Right?
Theist:  Yes, Jesus says that.
ME:  So, why then do you not love homosexuals.
Theist:  I do love them in God, just not what they do.  It says what they do is wrong in the bible.
ME:  In the OT, right?
Theist:  Yes.

And on and on we went for a very long time.  I just wanted the guy to agree that Christians take from the OT what they want to apply, and then claim that the NT negates all the stuff they don't want to think or talk about.

[Double D]

What are some of the hard questions you end up having to ask theists? How do you go about asking them? What is the the outcome? The reason I ask is I had a conversation with a theist today about how the bible demands killings. She was outraged by muslim honor killings and I told her the bible demands similar things. She said the ot changed that and I asked her if she would kill her child if she were living in the "old era". I haven't recieved an answer. I feel bad and I wasn't trying to be mean. I was just trying to point and that she was a better person than to do something like that and perhaps the bible isn't as sweet as she believes. I sort of feel like an asshole for being a bit pushy about it but I think people should start being honest with themselves. Im sort of glad a few pushy atheists did it for me. But does that give me the right to do it to others?

Were you honestly seeking an answer to your question?  Or were you merely trying to make a Christian stumble?  I do believe that Christians do need to be challenged to continually stay in the Word and be able to 'Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have'.

BTW, can you clarify your question for me as to how 'the Bible demands killings'?  If you're seeking an answer, I'll be glad to give you my best.

Thank you!

Denny

[Heretical Rants]

BTW, can you clarify your question for me as to how 'the Bible demands killings'?  If you're seeking an answer, I'll be glad to give you my best.

"For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death."

No questions necessary; it's all pretty straightforward.


"Thus Joshua struck all the land, the hill country and the Negev and the lowland and the slopes and all their kings. He left no survivor, but he utterly destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded."

How about the book of Numbers?
"Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man.  Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."

GO. Ransack that city! RRaarrr!

[Tank]

What are some of the hard questions you end up having to ask theists? How do you go about asking them? What is the the outcome? The reason I ask is I had a conversation with a theist today about how the bible demands killings. She was outraged by muslim honor killings and I told her the bible demands similar things. She said the ot changed that and I asked her if she would kill her child if she were living in the "old era". I haven't recieved an answer. I feel bad and I wasn't trying to be mean. I was just trying to point and that she was a better person than to do something like that and perhaps the bible isn't as sweet as she believes. I sort of feel like an asshole for being a bit pushy about it but I think people should start being honest with themselves. Im sort of glad a few pushy atheists did it for me. But does that give me the right to do it to others?

Were you honestly seeking an answer to your question?  Or were you merely trying to make a Christian stumble?  I do believe that Christians do need to be challenged to continually stay in the Word and be able to 'Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have'.

BTW, can you clarify your question for me as to how 'the Bible demands killings'?  If you're seeking an answer, I'll be glad to give you my best.

Thank you!

Denny

Hi Denny

As a forum denizen from a number of places, e.g. TheologyWeb and Richard Dawkins, may I offer a little insight. This place is not the run of the mill slagg fest. Whitney and her crew run a tight ship and as a result people actually tend to say it like it is. Consequently it's a good idea to take people's comments at face value until one has evidence to the contrary. The underlined bit in your reply immediately calls into question the honesty of another member which is not very polite really is it? Please stick around and get to know the other members here, you will find this place a little different from the norm, but believe me you'll find it worth the effort.

Welcome aboard!

Useful links for new members
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Parenting Beyond Belief. The forum for discussing how to raise your children 'Faith Free'.
Just a little advice for new Atheists Some thoughts for those new to reality.
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[Double D]

Hi Denny

As a forum denizen from a number of places, e.g. TheologyWeb and Richard Dawkins, may I offer a little insight. This place is not the run of the mill slagg fest. Whitney and her crew run a tight ship and as a result people actually tend to say it like it is. Consequently it's a good idea to take people's comments at face value until one has evidence to the contrary. The underlined bit in your reply immediately calls into question the honesty of another member which is not very polite really is it? Please stick around and get to know the other members here, you will find this place a little different from the norm, but believe me you'll find it worth the effort.

Welcome aboard!

Thanks for the heads up and for the welcome, I appreciate it!  And please believe me when I say that I am not looking for a fight. For some reason atheists and agnostics interest me, hence the reason for me even looking at this website.  After looking at a couple of topics regarding religion, I've found quite a few fallacies regarding Christianity.  I felt obliged to at least introduce myself and to offer any corrections as I see fit.  I'm no theolgian, but I do regulary stay at a Holiday Inn Express for work (OK, sorry attempt at humor).  I'll be sure to behave myself, as I'm not usually one to give in to emotion.

Regards,
Denny

[Heretical Rants]

Christianity is so diverse that you can state pretty much any fact about one group and immediately find a counter-example. So, yeah...

[Double D]

BTW, can you clarify your question for me as to how 'the Bible demands killings'?  If you're seeking an answer, I'll be glad to give you my best.

"For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death."

No questions necessary; it's all pretty straightforward.


"Thus Joshua struck all the land, the hill country and the Negev and the lowland and the slopes and all their kings. He left no survivor, but he utterly destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded."

How about the book of Numbers?
"Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man.  Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."

GO. Ransack that city! RRaarrr!

The Lord did command annhilation of many of the peoples who inhabited the promised land.  Totally depraved cultures were destroyed so that they would not corrupt the Israelites into committing the same evil acts, which did later occur due to the Israelites not obeying the command.  These people were not innocent, but rather deserving of judgement (as we all are).  While God is long suffering, eventually, time does run out, as it did for those particular groups of people.


Denny

[KebertX]

Anything logically coherent is a hard question for biblical literalism.  My favorite is: "Is Gandhi in Hell?"  He was an exceptionally good person, but he did not believe in Jesus. Would a just God actually send Gandhi to hell?

The bible justifies a lot of evil evil evil things that the New Testament didn't really address. Christians act like it did, but the NT only undid the practice of stoning adulterous wives to death.  Every other bad thing in the OT is still on the table as far as Christian Scripture is concerned.  So when people say they believe in the bible, or they draw their morals from the bible, I point out:

~ The Bible condones GENOCIDE, RAPE, and SLAVERY.
~ Human Sacrifice. Contrary to popular belief: Pagan scriptures do not condone human sacrifice, that's all coming from the Bible.
~ God killed over 2.5 million people, and Satan only killed 10.
~ Jesus guaranteed that prayer was foolproof, but it definitely does not work. Statistically, it's actually WORSE to pray for people sick in the hospital.
~ God condoned, and several times ordered infanticide, and even punished women by making them have miscarriages, or be beaten and/or abused to kill the baby. Ironic, because these bible-thumpers are always Pro-Life.
~ An all knowing God who incorporated all his knowledge in his creation, is paradoxical to Free Will, Suffering, Imperfection, and even Creation.
~ That Epicurus Paradox is always fun to recite.

I can't stand the Bible! It's such an evil book, but people think it's so righteous. There are deeply disturbing its of the bible that every person who believes in it mus resolve to themselves.  In the end, if you cut out all the bits of the Bible that contradict each other, and contradict reality, you end up with a tattered pile of shredded paper with no coherent message remaining.

[The Magic Pudding]

[
The Lord did command annhilation of many of the peoples who inhabited the promised land.  Totally depraved cultures were destroyed so that they would not corrupt the Israelites into committing the same evil acts, which did later occur due to the Israelites not obeying the command.  These people were not innocent, but rather deserving of judgement (as we all are).  While God is long suffering, eventually, time does run out, as it did for those particular groups of people.Denny

It seems normal that a country/people will demonise the enemy.
They are made to seem less than human.
Some people have an inconvenient reluctance to kill, this needs to be overcome.
It's OK to kill a two year old boy if he might corrupt my people?
So we kill a people take their land and young females, we don't feel guilty, no we are righteous.
Isn’t religion a wonderful thing?
I can understand why such things happened.
I can't understand anyone defending them today.
DD your religion has gangrenous limbs, best lop em off to save any remaining life.

[Tank]

Hi Denny

As a forum denizen from a number of places, e.g. TheologyWeb and Richard Dawkins, may I offer a little insight. This place is not the run of the mill slagg fest. Whitney and her crew run a tight ship and as a result people actually tend to say it like it is. Consequently it's a good idea to take people's comments at face value until one has evidence to the contrary. The underlined bit in your reply immediately calls into question the honesty of another member which is not very polite really is it? Please stick around and get to know the other members here, you will find this place a little different from the norm, but believe me you'll find it worth the effort.

Welcome aboard!

Thanks for the heads up and for the welcome, I appreciate it!  And please believe me when I say that I am not looking for a fight. For some reason atheists and agnostics interest me, hence the reason for me even looking at this website.  After looking at a couple of topics regarding religion, I've found quite a few fallacies regarding Christianity.  I felt obliged to at least introduce myself and to offer any corrections as I see fit.  I'm no theolgian, but I do regulary stay at a Holiday Inn Express for work (OK, sorry attempt at humor).  I'll be sure to behave myself, as I'm not usually one to give in to emotion.

Regards,
Denny

I hope you stay and enjoy yourself. My world view is very different from your world view but in my experience with people I'll share an awful lot more with you than I will disagree on, once we put the minor issue of the existance of God to one side