Jesus is not the Messiah

[Gawen]

Well...another one bites the dust using the Bible to refute the Bible.


*ala lil 'ol woman in Poltergeist style* ...  
I pronounce this thread clean...*laffin*

[Thumpalumpacus]

I bet every clue and bit of evidence can be defeated and thought refuted by one who is invested in only tearing others beliefs down.

You're absolutely right.  There are more important things to do than think about deities.

[freeservant]

freeservant, if you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen.

I may need to do just that. [/quote]
 

It is absolutely unnecessary for you to attack a person and a whole group of people simply because you can't refute an argument against Jesus as the Messiah.

I think the argument against Jesus has been constantly refuted over the last two thousand years by a Higher Power then any earth bound defender.  But that in no way means that others are not free to have there view.  When I imply that someone is deeply invested in there view it naturally turns around on myself as well.  I believe my view can be falsified with a proper mix of clues and evidence.  One of those clues would be something like first/second century text about getting the doctrinal story strait as we have to keep up the lies...    

I suggest you take a few moments to think about how your words here have tended to be scattered with derogatory language towards anyone who is not SDA.  I also suggest that you read the forum rules because you aren't following the guideline of acting civilly towards others.....use your head and think quit hiding behind your hate.

I know some Christians who would never want to get out of there bubble and echo chambers to consider views that my contradict there own.  I have been chastised by some who think it pointless to debate or defend the Christian viewpoint as there are some in the church who are somewhat anti-intellectual and think no atheist will change there mind.  The problem is that I was once an atheist who changed his mind.  Whitney I would ask if you think it really derogatory or that any discomfort it might give is how it is interpreted to be derogatory?

The authors of Paul and Paul himself used coercion, threats and even threat of death to get his theology through to people.

I certainly see this as derogatory and there are other instances in other threads about the horrible wickedness of Christians and crimes committed over two hundred years ago.  We are not all Catholics you know.

It just so happens that christian attempts to ferry non-believers away from hell can really annoy the non-believers as there is no oncoming traffic and the nonbelievers see that they are being pushed for no reason

Yes Whitney I can see how you would believe this.  It is good that you understand the motivation involves saving everybody for the Kingdom as we will all be adopted children of God.  I also understand that if you view yourself as having the correct truth then you may not see derogatory blanket attacks against Christians as anything derogatory at all.  It is a given that all Christians are deluded right?

Well...another one bites the dust using the Bible to refute the Bible.


*ala lil 'ol woman in Poltergeist style* ...  
I pronounce this thread clean...*laffin*

  The spoils of victory?  http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/bib-qur/bibarch.htm

I did ask if there is anything I can present that would cause you to change your mind but I do pronounce this thread clean of any answer.    Back to the echo chamber?

[KebertX]

Who cares?!? One bit of ancient scripture fails to support another bit of ancient scripture.  That's what the Bible IS!  Writing from thousands of years ago, that some tribal simpletons came up with, THAT CANNOT BE VERRIFIED!  For Pete's sake, it's 2010, shouldn't people be done arguing over this nonsense by now?

In summation this conspiracy of Paulism is professed by Muslims and others but has a definite problem with Occam's Razor.

Not really. I submit that if you know of Occam's Razor, you're not shaving enough...*grinnin*

I bet every clue and bit of evidence can be defeated and thought refuted by one who is invested in only tearing others beliefs down.  Is there enough material that I could present that would falsify your view enough to convince you?  I don't think so.  I admit defeat right now.  Not a defeat of Christianity or the divinity of Christ.  But rather a defeat in that what you are undertaking to do is a vital function of the non-believer.  The non-stamp collector who must tear up all other stamps so that non-stamps are the great achievement.  I may have more to add later but this is my last day at my current job and you should be happy with what you have presented so far.  

No one wants to tear others beliefs down.  While you preach your ancient superstitions, we're laughing. Laughing because we only believe in REALITY, and what the bible says is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo far away from that!  You talk about Occam's Razor, you don't think you're breaking that rule when you assume God exists, or assume that the Bible is credible, or assume that Jesus was the messiah?  This is a shining example of the Confirmation Bias.  You have drawn the conclusion, BEFORE you look for evidence to support it.



Of course every clue and bit of evidence can be defeated and refuted, because the evidence is entirely self confirming.  It's awful logic.  Is there enough material that I could present that would falsify your view enough to convince you?  How much evidence does it take before people realize the bible does not represent truth?

The Earth is millions of years old.
Evolution is a fact.
There was no Garden of Eden.
There was no Global Flood.
There was no migration across the Red Sea.
There was no Sodom and Gomorrah.
There was no walking on water.
There was no wine from water.
There is no hell.
and most importantly THERE IS NO INVISIBLE MEGALOMANIAC IN THE SKY!

If anyone or anything else in the world made claims so outrageous, with no external evidence, No one would take it seriously.  Talk about Occam's Razor, no story in the bible doesn't violate Occam's Razor.  I don't believe in God, because I don't believe in Mother Goose.  In terms of your stamp analogy, Atheists are non-Stamp collectors, who realized people are collecting IMAGINARY stamps.  We just want to show people that there's actually nothing in their stamp book, so they stop wasting their lives on imaginary stamps, and insisting on holding back everyone else in the process.

I'm curious freeservant, why did you join this forum?  Why would any Christian want to join an Atheist Forum, just to try to propagate ancient myths to people who have already moved beyond them?  I should have known when I joined we would be trolled, I just want to know why you felt the urge to come here.

(I know I'm being mean, but that's what people do when they're pissed off.  I stand by everything I say, but apologize in advance for being offensive...)

[Tank]

B

* Messiah would be tortured to death: Psalm 22

Psalm 22:2 “My God, my God, why have You abandoned me; why so far from delivering me and my anguished roaring?” (JPS)

Psalm 22:1 “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?” (KJV)

Mark 15:34 “And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (KJV)

Matthew 27:46 “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (KJV)
The Gospel authors would have us believe that Jesus quotes this Psalm. However, Jesus citing a Psalm is no evidence that he fulfilled a prophecy, or that Psalms 22 was a prophecy for Jesus at all. The fact is, there is no way to conclude from the Psalm or from the Gospels that it is a messianic prophecy â€" Christians essentially made this up.

I must say that while not attributing a lot of truth to the Bible, it being a propaganda document for a bunch of power mad delusionists, I have always wondered about the supposed last words of JC. To me it appears that it took being nailed to a cross to make JC realise he was really an atheist. It wasn't till that point that he finally realised what a pile of BS he had swallowed throughout his entire life. This BS led to the Messiah complex that dominated his life after his 40 days of self imposed desert introspection. He started to believe his own publicity, always a bad thing. And then finally he realised his humanity, I bet he was pissed off!

Can you imagine the realisation as he hung from the nails with his legs broken and a spear hole in his side 'Boy did I fuck up!'

[Gawen]

Who cares?!? One bit of ancient scripture fails to support another bit of ancient scripture.  That's what the Bible IS!  Writing from thousands of years ago, that some tribal simpletons came up with, THAT CANNOT BE VERRIFIED!  

Precisely. I took the long way to explain that, but believers can't just be told what you just said in a couple of sentences. Devout people, like Freeservant, would rather take us to Jesus than listen to us. They are afraid to think critically because their religion is based on fear. It makes me so glad that I never had to go through the deconversion process.

I'm curious freeservant, why did you join this forum?  Why would any Christian want to join an Atheist Forum, just to try to propagate ancient myths to people who have already moved beyond them?  I should have known when I joined we would be trolled, I just want to know why you felt the urge to come here.

He has already told us. He has failed. His God has failed him to help refute anything we told him. And I thought the Holy Spirit was in him. I guess not in this debate.

[Gawen]

I did ask if there is anything I can present that would cause you to change your mind but I do pronounce this thread clean of any answer.    Back to the echo chamber?

You can possibly change my mind if you can answer my posts in detail and depth. So far all I've seen are lightweight ad hominems and links to apologetics with the very first link to a flavour of Christianity not even your own. I answered all your questions. Now it's your turn.

[Gawen]

I must say that while not attributing a lot of truth to the Bible, it being a propaganda document for a bunch of power mad delusionists, I have always wondered about the supposed last words of JC. To me it appears that it took being nailed to a cross to make JC realise he was really an atheist. It wasn't till that point that he finally realised what a pile of BS he had swallowed throughout his entire life. This BS led to the Messiah complex that dominated his life after his 40 days of self imposed desert introspection. He started to believe his own publicity, always a bad thing. And then finally he realised his humanity, I bet he was pissed off!

Can you imagine the realisation as he hung from the nails with his legs broken and a spear hole in his side 'Boy did I fuck up!'

*laffin*
Christianity doesn't have a leg to stand on.

[Gawen]

I think the argument against Jesus has been constantly refuted over the last two thousand years by a Higher Power then any earth bound defender.  But that in no way means that others are not free to have there view.  When I imply that someone is deeply invested in there view it naturally turns around on myself as well.  I believe my view can be falsified with a proper mix of clues and evidence.  One of those clues would be something like first/second century text about getting the doctrinal story strait as we have to keep up the lies...    

I'm afraid, all you have is all you'll get. However, I'm sure the Vatican has some stuff that they've kept locked up for centuries they would not like the public to see.

I used the bible in this discussion to refute the bible. Why can't you do the same? Are you afraid I may be right? Or do you hold to Pascal's Wager just in case?

[Whitney]

It is a given that all Christians are deluded right?

Depends on what you think the word deluded means and whether I count in those who are just christians because that's what they are told to say they are....Regardless, I don't think it's a good idea to go around telling people they are deluded even if I think their views are misguided or wrong.

I also do not care if you claim you were once an atheist...not having a belief in god in your life at some point doesn't mean you automatically understand the the philosophical reasons for not having a belief in a god; some people just don't believe yet have put just as little thought into why as the masses of unreasoned theists.

Now...are you ready to quit trying to cram all atheists into a tiny box?

[Gawen]

It is a given that all Christians are deluded right?

Whitney is a bit more flexible and forgiving than I...bless her heart...*grinnin*

Remember I told you: delusion means - something that is falsely or delusively believed or propagated and/or a persistent false and possibly psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite no evidence, no good evidence or indisputable evidence to the contrary. It's not just Christians. It's people who claim to be a prophet, or Napoleon or those that believe Washington chopped down a cherry tree or Paul Bunyan made the Grand Canyon.

[Whitney]

It is a given that all Christians are deluded right?

Whitney is a bit more flexible and forgiving than I...bless her heart...*grinnin*

I should be a diplomat

[Thumpalumpacus]

Rather than "delusion" (which I consider unnecessarily heated), I prefer "unsupported".

"Wrong" works, too.

[Gawen]

Rather than "delusion" (which I consider unnecessarily heated), I prefer "unsupported".

"Wrong" works, too.

A lot of people don't like the word 'delusion'.  I reckon it's because it has such a negative connotation that rhymes with 'crazy' and might make it seem "heated" or heavy handed. Sort of like many people think 'atheist' rhymes with 'satanist'. As long as the word is properly defined in context, I really do not have a problem with using it.

[KebertX]

Precisely. I took the long way to explain that, but believers can't just be told what you just said in a couple of sentences. Devout people, like Freeservant, would rather take us to Jesus than listen to us. They are afraid to think critically because their religion is based on fear. It makes me so glad that I never had to go through the deconversion process.

De-conversion isn't hard. At all.  I found it easy to De-convert myself from The Bible. Then Christianity. Then God.  I think I'm in the process of De-converting from belief in a soul (I'm not sure whether or not I want to keep that one).  Granted I wasn't taken to church very often as a kid, but I found the realization that God isn't real just as easy as it was to realize Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy were fake.  Hell, I was still convinced on Bigfoot when I quit God!

My point is, I came from a fundamentalist, anti-evolutionist, Ozzy-Hating, Protestant family, and I can personally attest to the fact that it isn't hard to give up on those things if you've been properly educated in Logic, Science, and Black Sabbath.  Actually, I thing Atheism is more enriching if you've gotten there from the other side.  It puts things in perspective, so to speak.

~

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