Arizona's Illegal Immigration Law

[Sophus]

On a side note - the people behind this law are associated with the National Socialist Movement - yes - actual neo-Nazis. Fucked up.

Srsly?  lol

[Sophus]

For those interested in what Kylyssa's talking about:
http://www.blogforarizona.com/blog/2010/04/racist-roots-of-russell-pearces-regressive-antiimmigrant-laws.html

Thanks Kylyssa.  

[thelittlefinch]

I have friends and family members who give to charities which help those in poverty in foreign nations. Ironically, they oppose both the new health care plan and tolerating illegals because they don't want their taxes to go toward others who haven't "picked themselves up by their bootstraps". I'm still trying to figure this logic out....

I donate to at least three charities twice a year - on my birthday and before the semester starts in the fall. They're all private charities. I'm all for private funds going to charity, but I'd like my tax dollars to go elsewhere: the fire/police department, our schools, comprehensive sex education, etc. Fundamentally speaking, I'm a Republican. It's always hard for me to admit that because I'm embarrassed to be loosely affiliated with Sarah Palin and George Bush.

I guess my point is, maybe your friends and family think that charities should be privately funded by those inclined to donate -- there are plenty of people out there who do so. In addition, it's not like the US isn't trying to make conditions in other countries better... In 2010, the US was the number one contributor to the World Food Program donating over 430 million dollars. The US government has devoted over one billion dollars and military resources to help Mexico fight powerful drug cartels. I can imagine that illegal immigration is connected to Mexico's economic stability, but just because they haven't reached their goal yet doesn't mean we should make any concessions in the United States.

I legally immigrated to the US and eventually became a US citizen and I get a bit ruffled everytime this topic comes up. Therefore, I think I best avoid speaking on the topic altogether!

[Big Mac]

I have friends and family members who give to charities which help those in poverty in foreign nations. Ironically, they oppose both the new health care plan and tolerating illegals because they don't want their taxes to go toward others who haven't "picked themselves up by their bootstraps". I'm still trying to figure this logic out....

I donate to at least three charities twice a year - on my birthday and before the semester starts in the fall. They're all private charities. I'm all for private funds going to charity, but I'd like my tax dollars to go elsewhere: the fire/police department, our schools, comprehensive sex education, etc. Fundamentally speaking, I'm a Republican. It's always hard for me to admit that because I'm embarrassed to be loosely affiliated with Sarah Palin and George Bush.

I guess my point is, maybe your friends and family think that charities should be privately funded by those inclined to donate -- there are plenty of people out there who do so. In addition, it's not like the US isn't trying to make conditions in other countries better... In 2010, the US was the number one contributor to the World Food Program donating over 430 million dollars. The US government has devoted over one billion dollars and military resources to help Mexico fight powerful drug cartels. I can imagine that illegal immigration is connected to Mexico's economic stability, but just because they haven't reached their goal yet doesn't mean we should make any concessions in the United States.

I legally immigrated to the US and eventually became a US citizen and I get a bit ruffled everytime this topic comes up. Therefore, I think I best avoid speaking on the topic altogether!

My mother and her family came through Mexico legally (they are the more privileged Mexicans who have a decent amount of wealth even by American standards) and overstayed their visas. My grandmother married some guy in Missouri and they stayed there in the 70's. At age 15 she learned English on her own (there were no ESL classes back then) by studying the dictionary and immersing herself as much into the culture as possible. Today she has a Master's degree and is so Americanized you would never think she was an immigrant. She came here illegally (in the technical sense) and she is a productive member of society.

She feels strongly about the issue because a lot of immigrants flee horrible places and often are exploited because they are underground and out of sight for most people. I sympathize with the plight of all immigrants, legal and illegal. I feel the problem is that our current system makes it expensive and extremely lengthy and difficult for people to immigrate legally. I am totally behind a comprehensive immigration reform. Several industries depend on immigrants. You go to a restaurant, you are enjoying the labor exploited from immigrants. You get your car washed, check into a motel, send your kids off to school/work in your office you're enjoying janitorial services brought by immigrant hands, dry cleaning, etc.

Not to mention immigrants contribute other ways.

Ricky Ricardo was an immigrant, and his show with his wife (I Love Lucy) was one of the greatest moments in comedy. Bruce Lee was an immigrant. Albert Einstein was an immigrant to this land.

Feel free to speak, one of the great things about this country is the protected right to speak your mind. We're all big boys and girls, we can handle your view.

Don't feel bad about being a Republican. Those morons (Bush and Palin) don't represent us. I'm a Libertarian but I tend to vote Republican because they tend to be more in line with my views regarding gun rights and other personal freedoms, but I will vote for a Democrat as well. Really it's all about the person's ability to be a representative of the people and their voting record.

[thelittlefinch]

My mother and her family came through Mexico legally (they are the more privileged Mexicans who have a decent amount of wealth even by American standards) and overstayed their visas. My grandmother married some guy in Missouri and they stayed there in the 70's. At age 15 she learned English on her own (there were no ESL classes back then) by studying the dictionary and immersing herself as much into the culture as possible. Today she has a Master's degree and is so Americanized you would never think she was an immigrant. She came here illegally (in the technical sense) and she is a productive member of society.

She feels strongly about the issue because a lot of immigrants flee horrible places and often are exploited because they are underground and out of sight for most people. I sympathize with the plight of all immigrants, legal and illegal. I feel the problem is that our current system makes it expensive and extremely lengthy and difficult for people to immigrate legally. I am totally behind a comprehensive immigration reform. Several industries depend on immigrants. You go to a restaurant, you are enjoying the labor exploited from immigrants. You get your car washed, check into a motel, send your kids off to school/work in your office you're enjoying janitorial services brought by immigrant hands, dry cleaning, etc.

Not to mention immigrants contribute other ways.

Ricky Ricardo was an immigrant, and his show with his wife (I Love Lucy) was one of the greatest moments in comedy. Bruce Lee was an immigrant. Albert Einstein was an immigrant to this land.

Feel free to speak, one of the great things about this country is the protected right to speak your mind. We're all big boys and girls, we can handle your view.

Don't feel bad about being a Republican. Those morons (Bush and Palin) don't represent us. I'm a Libertarian but I tend to vote Republican because they tend to be more in line with my views regarding gun rights and other personal freedoms, but I will vote for a Democrat as well. Really it's all about the person's ability to be a representative of the people and their voting record.

I'm not against ALL immigration. I'm well aware of the contributions immigrants have made in the US. I'm an immigrant myself, and many brilliant minds at my University are either first or second generation immigrants. I am under no delusion that immigrants haven't done anything positive for the United States. I was just in Texas for two weeks just a few days ago, and without the many Mexican immigrants who have decided to plant their roots there, I would have never had the pleasure of experiencing true Mexican cuisine. To deprive people of that culture because of xenophobic sentiments would be a tragedy.

My mother is a nurse and provides 85% of our family's income. My dad, on the other hand, works the night shift at a warehouse. His hard work isn't discounted in my mind just because he makes significantly less than my mother, nor does his occupation make me respect him any less. In fact, I'm quite proud of him for continuing to work despite the weak compensation. When I travel and I pass by janitors at the hotels I stay in or bus boys who speak little to no English, I think of my father, and I think of the families they're working to support.

Having said that, I'm still against illegal immigration. I believe that we need serious immigration reform and that the immigration process should be made easier, but pursuing laws that make illegal immiration an option with minimal consequences is not the answer. While I don't support the whatever negative, racist results Arizona's law might produce, I do hope that it becomes a deterrent to those who are thinking about illegally immigrating while the US works to overhaul this nation's unfair immigration policies.

[Businessocks]

So as far as I can tell, this law is telling police that unless they harass people who may or may not be immigrants, they can be sued by the public.

I understand that illegal immigration is an issue, I just don't think this is a solution people should support.  I feel like it not only encourages racial profiling, but it mandates it.

This point exactly!  The problem with the legislation is that many LEGAL immigrants and citizens will be suspect.   I do not want to live in a country where the police can stop me on the street and demand my paperwork.  The legislation hurts the problem it claims to be trying to solve because it infringes on citizens' and legal aliens rights.  That's a whole new problem.

[Big Mac]

I'm not against ALL immigration. I'm well aware of the contributions immigrants have made in the US. I'm an immigrant myself, and many brilliant minds at my University are either first or second generation immigrants. I am under no delusion that immigrants haven't done anything positive for the United States. I was just in Texas for two weeks just a few days ago, and without the many Mexican immigrants who have decided to plant their roots there, I would have never had the pleasure of experiencing true Mexican cuisine. To deprive people of that culture because of xenophobic sentiments would be a tragedy.

My mother is a nurse and provides 85% of our family's income. My dad, on the other hand, works the night shift at a warehouse. His hard work isn't discounted in my mind just because he makes significantly less than my mother, nor does his occupation make me respect him any less. In fact, I'm quite proud of him for continuing to work despite the weak compensation. When I travel and I pass by janitors at the hotels I stay in or bus boys who speak little to no English, I think of my father, and I think of the families they're working to support.

Having said that, I'm still against illegal immigration. I believe that we need serious immigration reform and that the immigration process should be made easier, but pursuing laws that make illegal immiration an option with minimal consequences is not the answer. While I don't support the whatever negative, racist results Arizona's law might produce, I do hope that it becomes a deterrent to those who are thinking about illegally immigrating while the US works to overhaul this nation's unfair immigration policies.

It's funny because our views are not so different on this. I too feel this law in Arizona is a bad idea. Yes we need to have better control of who enters this country. I'm not in favor of opening the flood gates or building an iron fence. Neither solution will even begin to stop this. I feel that the best way to combat this is to 1.) Target the employers as the main priority because people aren't immigrating just to live on welfare. They are looking for work. and 2.) Strike at the source of the poverty and oppression.

I'm not talking about being world police, but perhaps we need to help eradicate the conditions that force people to flee their homeland. Mexico is near the point of anarchy. Cuba is in the iron grip of totalitarian Marxist state. Other countries fall into these categories.

I admit fully this comes off as idealistic.

I am personally bewildered how people who are Christian claim to be loving their neighbors but have an almost sadistic view regarding how to deal with immigrants. They treat them like they're not even human.

[TheJackel]

Illegal immigrants are just people like you and me. They come here fleeing horrible conditions and grinding poverty you and I cannot even imagine. To act like that is a crime in itself is a little sadistic.

Yep, and the fact they come here knowing the US citizen will be forced to pay for their health care, child birthing, and education couldn't possibly be sadistic.. Not only that, many do this with stolen social security numbers and end up destroying someone else's life.. 3rdly the majority of them have no care what-so-ever about this country other than what they can get from it. And let's not forget there is a rather large group out there that still views Texas and Arizona as Mexican owned land and are trying to reclaim it. Also, illegal aliens come here and vote to give them rights they should not have. Illegals already have more rights than that of a US citizen. You don't see US citizens crossing the border to vote in Canada or Mexico do you?

Now concerning the Jobs that "American's don't want" is a load of crap! In fact the retail, warehouse, construction, and service markets that make up the majority of the available jobs are flooded with illegal aliens who take these jobs away from citizens who can't find jobs, or high school and college students who need these jobs to pay for schooling and make their own livings.. And what's even worse about that is the fact that they cause the wages to be lower than what's even considered livable wages!.. Most Americans can't even afford to go to college anymore!

Illegals could give a rats ass how they effect this country so long as they get that free ride.. Hell, if Mexican Citizens paid for illegal American immigrants health care, education, allowed them to vote in their elections, and take their citizens Jobs.., I'm sure the Mexicans would be pissed off too!..

Now before you get on my case with sob stories and how inhumane I must be as some sort of irrational person not to excuse Illegal aliens committing a Federal Crime and possibly other crimes, I don't have a problem with legal immigration, or people who actually pull their own weight without me having to pay for their life while I can barely pay for my own. And don't even think about pulling the race BS card in this argument because I am not by any means racist.. Mexicans need to fix their own country and stop coming here to leech on the backs of the American taxpayer and their Jobs.. If Americans need help covering gaps in the Job market there is a thing called a work VISA, or work programs that many countries use. There is no excuse for illegal immigration..

How about this, for them to work in the US they have to join the US army, or National Guard and actually offer something that contributes to the well being of this country!(and I am not saying that some don't). And I don't see them treating American citizens like human beings but rather like silver spoons..

[JillSwift]

@TheJackel: Can you cite or offer hard evidence for any of the claims you've made? I find a few to be difficult to believe, such as "Illegals already have more rights than that of a US citizen."

I keep hearing arguments like yours, but I never see any evidence offered. In fact weasel words show up (like "many", which is meaningless in this context) much more than percentages or actual numbers, which would have meaning especially if evidenced. Nothing flips on the skeptic switch like a few weasel words.

[McQ]

Illegal immigrants are just people like you and me. They come here fleeing horrible conditions and grinding poverty you and I cannot even imagine. To act like that is a crime in itself is a little sadistic.

Yep, and the fact they come here knowing the US citizen will be forced to pay for their health care, child birthing, and education couldn't possibly be sadistic.. Not only that, many do this with stolen social security numbers and end up destroying someone else's life.. 3rdly the majority of them have no care what-so-ever about this country other than what they can get from it. And let's not forget there is a rather large group out there that still views Texas and Arizona as Mexican owned land and are trying to reclaim it. Also, illegal aliens come here and vote to give them rights they should not have. Illegals already have more rights than that of a US citizen. You don't see US citizens crossing the border to vote in Canada or Mexico do you?

Now concerning the Jobs that "American's don't want" is a load of crap! In fact the retail, warehouse, construction, and service markets that make up the majority of the available jobs are flooded with illegal aliens who take these jobs away from citizens who can't find jobs, or high school and college students who need these jobs to pay for schooling and make their own livings.. And what's even worse about that is the fact that they cause the wages to be lower than what's even considered livable wages!.. Most Americans can't even afford to go to college anymore!

Illegals could give a rats ass how they effect this country so long as they get that free ride.. Hell, if Mexican Citizens paid for illegal American immigrants health care, education, allowed them to vote in their elections, and take their citizens Jobs.., I'm sure the Mexicans would be pissed off too!..

Now before you get on my case with sob stories and how inhumane I must be as some sort of irrational person not to excuse Illegal aliens committing a Federal Crime and possibly other crimes, I don't have a problem with legal immigration, or people who actually pull their own weight without me having to pay for their life while I can barely pay for my own. And don't even think about pulling the race BS card in this argument because I am not by any means racist.. Mexicans need to fix their own country and stop coming here to leech on the backs of the American taxpayer and their Jobs.. If Americans need help covering gaps in the Job market there is a thing called a work VISA, or work programs that many countries use. There is no excuse for illegal immigration..

How about this, for them to work in the US they have to join the US army, or National Guard and actually offer something that contributes to the well being of this country!(and I am not saying that some don't). And I don't see them treating American citizens like human beings but rather like silver spoons..

This will not be a popular posting for either one of us, but I agree with most of what you've written here. People will discount it as rhetoric because no exact figures were given, and some generalizations were used, but I'd caution those who discount it out of hand for those bits. The overall point is well made, even if many will quibble with details.

Just chiming in to say I think it's broadly valid.

[pinkocommie]

It seems like an emotional plea to me.  If the claims made are factual, produce the evidence.  Also, claiming that people asking for evidence are just 'quibbling about details' is a suspiciously familiar claim.  

[Sophus]

@pinkocommie I'm on the opposite side of the fence but here are some facts.  

Does Immigration Cost Jobs?

Cost of Illegal Immigration

[JillSwift]

@pinkocommie I'm on the opposite side of the fence but here are some facts.  

[JillSwift]

This will not be a popular posting for either one of us, but I agree with most of what you've written here. People will discount it as rhetoric because no exact figures were given, and some generalizations were used, but I'd caution those who discount it out of hand for those bits. The overall point is well made, even if many will quibble with details.

Just chiming in to say I think it's broadly valid.

Without actual data to evaluate, how can we possibly know that an argument is valid? Evidence isn't "those bits", it is part and parcel to the conclusion. Without evidence all that's left is rhetoric and unsubstantiated claims.

[McQ]

This will not be a popular posting for either one of us, but I agree with most of what you've written here. People will discount it as rhetoric because no exact figures were given, and some generalizations were used, but I'd caution those who discount it out of hand for those bits. The overall point is well made, even if many will quibble with details.

Just chiming in to say I think it's broadly valid.

Without actual data to evaluate, how can we possibly know that an argument is valid? Evidence isn't "those bits", it is part and parcel to the conclusion. Without evidence all that's left is rhetoric and unsubstantiated claims.

Re-read what I wrote. I said that I'd caution those who discount it out of hand, and that the overall point was well made. WOuld I like to have actual, exact data? Sure. But no one has actual, EXACT data on any aspect of this yet, as it is still an unfolding social phenomenon, and not a set series of physical experiments or data sets.

I'm not saying I love draconian laws either. As a Libertarian leaning person and social liberal, I don't enjoy any laws that impede social progress. But the same people who complain about no data in The Jackel's post seem to me to be the same who want to ignore the largest and most obvious fact of this whole thread, and that is that they are still illegal immigrants, not legal immigrants. Regardless of Arizona's law, these people are in this country against the existing Federal Law. So I will as easily reject the arguments of those people who ignore that fact, as they make those arguments, especially if they reject, out of hand, posts and opinions like The Jackel made.

And yes, this is an emotional thing for lots of us. But the important thing is to at least talk about it, and try to find what common ground there is to first agree on. This isn't religion, where dogma rules. This is something made up of opinions, many based on emotion, some on fact, some on social influence. It's not like we can't change our minds on it. We can. We just need rational talk.

I don't dislike someone here who disagrees, but will ask for the samestandards to be in application for all who debate it. Mine too. I hate when I make logical or fallacious points. But if I become aware of them, I'm pretty good about rescinding them.

Jeez, I just wrote a ton, and I'm dog-tired. I hope when I read this tomorrow, it makes some sense!