Christianity

[Davin]

...80 years....

My memory isn't that long.  

Not that it's important at all, we might as well discuss which super-powers we'd rather have if we could pick one.

Aye, but I have thought about this quite a lot and thought I would inject the idea that eternal life may not be all the great to start with, so wishing for it is kind of like wishing for all the money in the world.

[Whitney]

Just checking to see if bompt came back...doesn't look like it :waits:

[louisyeah]

Right on bompt !!!!!!

[Bombt]

Atheism is not a religion and requires no faith.

Well, how does it not require faith? To a certain extent, we all have to have faith at some point. For example, we don't really, absolutely, positively know how the world was created because none of us were there. Therefore, we need some faith to argue  that the world was produced through the Big Bang or any other theories.

Well in that case I'm defnitely going to hell, where I'll suffer forever in burning fire, tortured beyond anything you can imagine, I'll cry out in agony from the pain and the anguish and the hopelessness of everlasting eternal damnation in the fires of hell, and all because I do not have a relationship with Jesus.

I'm assuming that you're perfectly okay with that.

Well, it's not that I'm okay with that, it's just that it's your choice. I want you guys to go to heaven, but if you choose not to, I can't do anything about it. It's entirely your choice. Also, let's say that Christianity is not true. Then being a Christian is just living a good and moral life. There would be nothing to lose. But, if it is true, then we got all to lose if we don't follow it.

to JillSwif and Sophust: By the way, when I was talking about hell, I was just explaining it, I wasn't trying to intimidate you guys into believing. I didn't mean it that way.

So what do you call the commandments, and all the other rules and regulations from Exodus 20 through 23, at least? Not to mention Leviticus, Deuteronomy, so on and so forth. There are so many laws in the bible on so many different things it's very hard to come to the conclusion that christianity is not a religion of laws

Well, the point of Christianity is to get people to heaven. In the New Testament, Jesus specifically says that no one gets to heaven except through him. Therefore, we don't have to follow the laws perfectly to get to heaven, all we need is Jesus. When I said, "religion of law," I meant that the religion required one to follow the laws in order to get to heaven. Christianity is not like this, we just need Jesus.

But I would then ask, doesn't that make "accept in Jesus" a law?

Accepting Jesus is a choice, not a law. You don't have to do it.

Or, we don't follow the OT to the letter, it's more of a guideline/preamble to the NT. Some view the OT as LAW only to be ignored when it doesn't suit the problem at hand. Depending on the type of pentacostal we are talking about.

It's good to follow the law, and we try to, but when we fail (because it is impossible to follow every single law perfectly) Jesus is the ultimate trump card, as long as we have him, then it's all good. What I'm trying to say, is that the law is good, but Jesus is better.

I would prefer to live a bit longer, maybe a thousand years or so, but eternity sounds so awful to me. If I put it into some kind of context where I can understand immortality I have this example: A ten by ten room with light, one book and a bed for 80 years. I think this is a good comparison to eternity because even after 10 years in that room I would be bored out of my mind. The boredom of eternity would probably seem to just sneak up on me and then I would be wishing for non-existence, because, given eternity, everything gets done to death.

Well, let's take heaven, it's eternal happiness and joy. It's not like you sit and are bored for eternity.

Matthew 8:21: Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: "Let the dead bury the dead."
10:27: Jesus warns us not to love our parents or children too much.
10: After Jesus denounces divorce, his disciples say that if divorce isn't allowed, then "it is good not to marry." Jesus agrees by saying that it is better to make yourself a eunuch (cut off your testicles) "for the kingdom of heaven's sake."
19:29: Abandon your wife and children for Jesus and he'll give you a big reward.
7: 13-14: Jesus says that most people will go to hell.
Mark 7: 9-10: Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as required by Old Testament law.
7: 13-14: Jesus says that most people will go to hell.

Mark 10: 29-30: Jesus will reward men who abandon their wives and families.
Mark 13:17: In the last days God will make things especially rough on pregnant women.
Mark 7:27: Jesus initially refuses to cast out a devil from a Syrophoenician woman's daughter, calling the woman a "dog". After much pleading, he finally agrees to cast out the devil.

Luke 12:46-47: God is like a slave-owner who beats his slaves "with many stripes."

What does Paul say?
1 Timothy 5:9-15: You should help a widow only if she
1) is over 60 years old,
2) had only one husband,
3) has raised children,
4) has lodged strangers,
5) has "washed the saints feet,"
6) has relieved the afflicted, and
7) has "diligently followed very good work."
Otherwise, let them starve.

Hebrews 12: 6-8: God always hurts the ones he loves. And if God doesn't hurt you, you are a bastard, not a son.

! Cor 3:14-16: All non-Christians are blind. They were blinded by God to prevent them from seeing the truth.

That's enough of that. I can only take so much of the bible at a time. At any rate, God, Jesus and Paul certainly do take a stance that people are worth nothing. Hebrews 12: 6-8 is a good testament to that.

The Bible is full of superficial contradictions, but you have to see in what context it is written.

Does my son mean he's worth more because he is a human like me? Are you saying that God is human? Or are you saying that if God made intelligent beings that DID NOT look like God that they would be worth less?

God is spiritual. Therefore, if we're made in his likeness, we're probably made in the SPIRITUAL likeness. And, it's not that your son is worth more, it's that he's worth the same.
The Bible just presents the good news. It not like it's trying to get you to heaven by telling that you're going to hell. It's presenting a chance, an opportunity that you can take if you want it.

[JillSwift]

Well, how does it not require faith? To a certain extent, we all have to have faith at some point. For example, we don't really, absolutely, positively know how the world was created because none of us were there. Therefore, we need some faith to argue  that the world was produced through the Big Bang or any other theories.

What does the "big bang" or other theories have to do with atheism?

Well, it's not that I'm okay with that, it's just that it's your choice. I want you guys to go to heaven, but if you choose not to, I can't do anything about it. It's entirely your choice. Also, let's say that Christianity is not true. Then being a Christian is just living a good and moral life. There would be nothing to lose. But, if it is true, then we got all to lose if we don't follow it.

Pascal's wager. This has been demolished many times before.

to JillSwif and Sophust: By the way, when I was talking about hell, I was just explaining it, I wasn't trying to intimidate you guys into believing. I didn't mean it that way.

Oh please. The entire point of hell is to intimidate people into believing.

Well, the point of Christianity is to get people to heaven. In the New Testament, Jesus specifically says that no one gets to heaven except through him. Therefore, we don't have to follow the laws perfectly to get to heaven, all we need is Jesus. When I said, "religion of law," I meant that the religion required one to follow the laws in order to get to heaven. Christianity is not like this, we just need Jesus.

Yay! Hitler, a Catholic and true believer in Christ, is in heaven!

Accepting Jesus is a choice, not a law. You don't have to do it.

Or suffer for eternity. that's a "choice", yeah.

Well, let's take heaven, it's eternal happiness and joy. It's not like you sit and are bored for eternity.

How can any emotion be eternal?

The Bible just presents the good news. It not like it's trying to get you to heaven by telling that you're going to hell. It's presenting a chance, an opportunity that you can take if you want it.

What a mind-pretzel! If it's not "Get in with Jesus or you're going to hell", then what is it?

[Kylyssa]

But what if some other religion were right?  What if the Muslims are right and you'll be tortured for eternity by your God (because you both worship Yahweh) because you didn't follow the teachings of Mohamed?  

Don't you think it's a little weird that an all loving God hides His existence, makes it look completely unlikely, and then tortures forever any of His children who can't force themselves to believe in something that looks highly unlikely?  

You believe in original sin, don't you?  Yet you deny it that your religion asserts that humans are scum?  Original sin is the idea that humans are born sinning pieces of shit and can do nothing good because their earliest ancestors screwed up.  Because those early ancestors screwed up, God created death, illness, starvation, and suffering.  Sure, according to your religion, you can be washed clean in the blood of Jesus that God sent to earth to be tortured to death to partially redeem you.  But it's only partial redemption, no matter how you look at it.  The death, suffering, illness, starvation and all other sorts of misery still happen to you.  You are just as likely as anyone to have a child with a deadly and painful birth defect as anyone else.  Jesus' blood doesn't prevent you from being tortured (as God decreed every human must be because they are all pieces of shit because Adam and eve tasted a fruit) as punishment for original sin.

[KDbeads]

Atheism is not a religion and requires no faith.

Well, how does it not require faith? To a certain extent, we all have to have faith at some point. For example, we don't really, absolutely, positively know how the world was created because none of us were there. Therefore, we need some faith to argue  that the world was produced through the Big Bang or any other theories.

I do not have to have faith that there is no god and do not need it to argue anything. Scientific theory does not require faith, it requires the ability to understand mathematics and physics.

So what do you call the commandments, and all the other rules and regulations from Exodus 20 through 23, at least? Not to mention Leviticus, Deuteronomy, so on and so forth. There are so many laws in the bible on so many different things it's very hard to come to the conclusion that christianity is not a religion of laws

Well, the point of Christianity is to get people to heaven. In the New Testament, Jesus specifically says that no one gets to heaven except through him. Therefore, we don't have to follow the laws perfectly to get to heaven, all we need is Jesus. When I said, "religion of law," I meant that the religion required one to follow the laws in order to get to heaven. Christianity is not like this, we just need Jesus.

If the religion requires you to follow its laws then it is a religion of laws.  If you only need jesus, why in the hell have all the laws?  You can just repent and be fine .

Or, we don't follow the OT to the letter, it's more of a guideline/preamble to the NT. Some view the OT as LAW only to be ignored when it doesn't suit the problem at hand. Depending on the type of pentacostal we are talking about.

It's good to follow the law, and we try to, but when we fail (because it is impossible to follow every single law perfectly) Jesus is the ultimate trump card, as long as we have him, then it's all good. What I'm trying to say, is that the law is good, but Jesus is better.

Again, the idea of repent and you are magically saved from breaking the laws of your own religion.

The Bible is full of superficial contradictions, but you have to see in what context it is written.

Unless of course it applies to something the church doesn't like then it's taken as written.


None of this 'jesus saves' dribble washes with me and doesn't answer the questions asked of you and wasting my time on one who clearly doesn't see the faults in his argument is ridiculous.

[Dretlin]

There is plenty of evidence, but as with every religion, and even atheism, all of them require a certain amount of faith. What unproven parts are you talking about? (just curious)

There is no evidence, or enough to prove any religion correct to a point that is beyond doubt.

Well, we're all selfish aren't we? But wouldn't you like having an afterlife as opposed to nothingness?

“It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.”

I also believe that conversion by intimidation is immoral too. As a Christian, I'm supposed to just present an argument and let people decide for themselves. Of course I would like them to accept it, but if not, it's their own choice.

I am glad we agree.

[Davin]

There is plenty of evidence, but as with every religion, and even atheism, all of them require a certain amount of faith. What unproven parts are you talking about? (just curious)

Which situation do you think takes more faith?:

You're walking down the street and your friend says "look there's a five dollar bill" and when you look you see a five dollar bill.

--or--

You're walking down the street and your friend says "look there's a five dollar bill" and when you look there's no five dollar bill and your friend says "you're just not believing hard enough."

To me, I'll take the scientific method every time for things that can have a significant effect on my life. I don't believe anything just based on hearsay and the things that you could consider belief are just things I accept as true because they've provided suffucient reasonable evidence for it. It's nothing personal, it's just that you're not going to sway rational people with irrational arguments.

[Sophus]

There is plenty of evidence, but as with every religion, and even atheism, all of them require a certain amount of faith.

 :|

Honestly, I like the idea of death. Of what value is life (or anything) if it never ends? Today is infinitely more precious when there's a limited supply of tomorrows.

[KDbeads]

Atheism is not a religion and requires no faith.

Well, how does it not require faith? To a certain extent, we all have to have faith at some point. For example, we don't really, absolutely, positively know how the world was created because none of us were there. Therefore, we need some faith to argue  that the world was produced through the Big Bang or any other theories.

I do not have to have faith that there is no god and do not need it to argue anything. Scientific theory does not require faith, it requires the ability to understand mathematics and physics.

You know..... I've sat and thought some more on this.  I think you must be equating faith with knowledge.  I don't need faith to argue a point, I need knowledge of the subject.  I don't need faith to understand science, I need knowledge.

Faith and knowledge are not the same thing and can not be used interchangeably.

And as others have said, who are you to tell us what we think?  Sick of it.  Until you develop mind reading capabilities, don't attempt to tell me or anyone else what we think.

[Gawen]

I want you guys to go to heaven, ...

Why?

but if you choose not to, I can't do anything about it.

Honestly, you couldn't do anything about it either way we choose.

It's entirely your choice.

I have many more choices: Valhalla, Elysium, Fields of Aaru, Fields of Yalu, Asphodel Meadows, Sheol, Moksha, SWARG and countless others.

Also, let's say that Christianity is not true.

I won't say it is not true. I will say there is no good evidence for it.

Then being a Christian is just living a good and moral life.

I already do that. I don't need a Jewish zombie's OK to live a good life.

There would be nothing to lose.

I already have nothing to loose. I came into this world with nothing and I'll leave it the same way.

But, if it is true, then we got all to lose if we don't follow it.

Pascal's wager. Please read the link provided for you.

By the way, when I was talking about hell, I was just explaining it, I wasn't trying to intimidate you guys into believing. I didn't mean it that way.

You do not seem to understand. Your religion intimidates you into believing. Because you say how great your religion is, by proxy, so to speak, you are unintentionally intimidating us. Of course, I take no offense because I think you're not trying to shove down my throat.

In the New Testament, Jesus specifically says that no one gets to heaven except through him. Therefore, we don't have to follow the laws perfectly to get to heaven, all we need is Jesus. When I said, "religion of law," I meant that the religion required one to follow the laws in order to get to heaven. Christianity is not like this, we just need Jesus.

I'm going to start a new thread just for you concerning the Law.

Well, let's take heaven, it's eternal happiness and joy. It's not like you sit and are bored for eternity.

If I now need a brain to experience joy and happiness, how can I experience joy and happiness without one when I'm dead and my body is dust?

That's enough of that. I can only take so much of the bible at a time. At any rate, God, Jesus and Paul certainly do take a stance that people are worth nothing. Hebrews 12: 6-8 is a good testament to that.

The Bible is full of superficial contradictions, but you have to see in what context it is written.

I am disappointed in you bombt. You have been given links as to what is needed to attain salvation and other posts. If you do not adhere to Jesus's teachings, how can you know you will go to heaven? Context in these teachings means nothing but HOW TO ACHIEVE salvation.

God is spiritual.

Naw...God can make a virgin pregnant to give birth to himself. If God were not human, he could not procreate with humans.

Therefore, if we're made in his likeness, we're probably made in the SPIRITUAL likeness.

That's an unsubstantiated assertion. "Probably" doesn't cut it. That's why your religion must rely on religious faith.

And, it's not that your son is worth more, it's that he's worth the same.

By this, I can take your meaning to say either myself or my son, or any of the people posting on this board are worth the same as the Jews, gypsies or political prisoners executed by the Nazi's. At the same time, our worth is the same as the Nazi's. Let's not muddy the waters too much.

The Bible just presents the good news.

Do you know how many people were killed by Satan that's listed in the bible? Roughly 10. Compare that to the 2.5+ million people God kills in the Hebrew Bible. Compare that to the countless numbers of men made eunuchs over the last 1700 years. Tell that to the countless women that have been downtrodden upon by no less their husbands, all for the sake of the "good news" and a chance at winning the lottery for a place in Heaven.

It not like it's trying to get you to heaven by telling that you're going to hell. It's presenting a chance, an opportunity that you can take if you want it.

But that's what you're saying. If we aren't going to heaven, we're going to hell...*shrugs*. I don't need opportunities like this coming from an alleged "loving God".

[Whitney]

Right on bompt !!!!!!

Yay for sockpuppets....warning 1. I will ban you if you do it again.

bombt created a sockpuppet to pat himself on the back...not sure why people do that  

[wildfire_emissary]

lets hear it from gandhi who likes your christ but not your christians.

[pinkocommie]

Right on bompt !!!!!!

Yay for sockpuppets....warning 1. I will ban you if you do it again.

bombt created a sockpuppet to pat himself on the back...not sure why people do that  :shake: