Historical Jesus

[McQ]

I'm pretty sure there is more written about Spartacus than Jesus, as far as actual historical documents go. At least Plutarch wrote about Kirk Douglas....er...I mean...Spartacus!

[Dretlin]

I'm pretty sure there is more written about Spartacus than Jesus, as far as actual historical documents go. At least Plutarch wrote about Kirk Douglas....er...I mean...Spartacus!

No! I am Spartacus!

[Tank]

I'm pretty sure there is more written about Spartacus than Jesus, as far as actual historical documents go. At least Plutarch wrote about Kirk Douglas....er...I mean...Spartacus!

No! I am Spartacus!

That was so predictable

[Dretlin]

I'm pretty sure there is more written about Spartacus than Jesus, as far as actual historical documents go. At least Plutarch wrote about Kirk Douglas....er...I mean...Spartacus!

No! I am Spartacus!

That was so predictable

I had to be the first person to do it. At least its out of the way now!  

[Gawen]

Ok, let's try it in a unadulterated scholarly manner.

What do you think can be known about Jesus - who he was, what he did, what he taught and what he claimed about himself?

1) There are no contemporary references to Jesus. The earliest writings on Jesus were written decades after Jesus supposedly lived. Later references to Jesus include those in the New Testament, as well as the following examples:
· Flavius Josephus - c90CE
· Suetonius - c120CE
· Tactitus - 110CE
· Pliny - c110CE
· Thallus - cited in c300CE
· Talmud - 200-500CE
· 'Acts of Pilate'
The earliest of these references, the one supposedly written by Josephus, is a celebrated passage in that names Jesus as "The Christ". Unfortunately for the Christian, this is a well-known Christian interpolation.
2) The Gospels aren't eye-witness accounts
3) The Gospels are a form of Midrasha; a traditional Jewish practice, which involved reworking and enlarging on scripture. Take Mark for example. How much of Mark is based from the Old Testament?
[["Chreia" (from the Greek chreiodes, "useful") is "a brief reminiscence referring to some person in a pithy form for the purpose of edification or an anecdote which relates a saying or deed ]]
In Groups:
DIRECT OT PARALLELING:
1:12-13......1 Kings 19, The Fall
1:14-20......1 Kings 19:19-21 (Galilee Isa (9:1)
1:40-45......2 Kings 5, Nm 5:1-2
2:1-12........2 Kings 1:2-17
2:13-17......1 Kings 19:19-21
3:1-6..........1 Kings 13:4-6
3:13-19......Exodus 18:2-26
3:20-30......(Zech 3:13), Exodus 18:2-26
3:31-35......CHREIA SAYING, Exodus 18:2-26
4:35-41......Jonah through Psalm 107
5:21-43.....2 Kings 4:8-37, Num 5:1-2
6:14-29......Esther
6:30-44......2 Kings 4:38-44
6:45-56......(Psalm 77, Isa 43, Job 9)
7:31-37......Isa 35:5-6
8:1-13........2 Kings 4:38-44
9:1-13........2 Kings 1, other OT
9:38-41......Num 11:26-29
11:1-11......2 Kings 9:13, 1 Samuel 9 & 10 (OT parallels)
11:12-14....(OT: Jeremiah 8, 29, Joel 1, Hosea 9)
11:15-19....2 Kings (OT parallels)
12:1-12......PARABLE, 2 Kings 9:22-10:27 (OT parallels)
12:35-44....2 Kings 12:5-17
13:1-31......2 Kings 10:26-28, anachronisms, (OT parallels)
14:1-11......2 Kings 9:1-13 (OT parallels)
14:12-25....1 Samuel 10:1-7 (Paul?)
14:32-42....1 Kings 19:1-5 (Psalm 78:39-41)
14:43-52....2 Samuel 15-16
15:1-15......Daniel 6 (Josephus War?)
15:21-32....Daniel 6 (OT parallels)
15:33-41....Daniel 6 (OT parallels)
15:42-47....Daniel 6 (OT parallels)
16:1-8........Daniel 6, 2 Kgs 13: 20-1 (OT parallels)
------------------
DIRECT PARALLELS 33/71


OT VERSE CONSTRUCTION (built out of individual Verses)
1:9-11........(OT Parallels)
1:21-28......(many OT echoes) also 1 Enoch, Tobit
9:42-50......(Isa, Num, Lev)
12:28-34....(OT/Jewish parallels, Paul?)
14:26-31....(OT parallels)
15:16-20....(OT parallels, Roman procession)
14:53-65....Invention (OT parallels)
6:7-13........MISSION CHARGE (CYNIC) (OT parallels)
4:1-20........PARABLE (many to OT/Hellenistic culture)
4:21-25......SAYING (OT/Jewish parallels)
4:26-29......SAYING (OT parallels)
4:30-34......SAYING (OT parallels)
------------------
plus 12 = 45/71 or 63.3%

CHREIA
2:18-22......CHREIA SAYING
2:23-28......CHREIA (OT parallels)
6:1-6..........CHREIA SAYING
7:24-30......Elijah-Elisha echoes, CHREIA SAYING
10:1-12......OT, CHREIA (Paul on Divorce)
10:13-16....CHREIA
10:17-31....CHREIA
12:13-17....CHREIA (Paul?)
12:18-27....CHREIA (OT/Jewish parallels, Paul?)
-------------------
9/71

OUTRIGHT INVENTION
3:7-12........Invention
7:1-23........(many OT, anachronism)
8:27-33......Invention (Peter's Confession)
9:30-37......Invention (2nd passion prediction
10:32-34....Invention (3rd passion prediction)
10:35-45....Invention/anachronism (OT parallels)
11:20-25....Invention -- 2nd fig tree
13:32-37....PARABLE
14:66-72....NONE KNOWN (Peter's denial= invention)
----------------
8/71

UNKNOWN or SOURCE NOT OT
9:14-29......NONE KNOWN
10:46-52....Plato? NONE KNOWN
5:1-20........Josephus? (OT Parallels=Isa 65:1-7)
8:34-38......Hellenistic Philosophical Concepts
8:22-26......Interpolation based on 7:31-7
8:14-21......NONE KNOWN Non-Markan
11:27-33....Baptism authority? SAYING
1:1-8..........NONE KNOWN (OT parallels)
1:29-39......NONE KNOWN
-------------------------------------------------------------
About 65% of Mark is built out of the OT.

4) All Jewish "Messianic Prophecies" fail on every level. Jesus was not a Messiah.

5) Jesus was a myth, just like all the other mythological man-gods before Christ. We understand these as myth:
a. When Osiris is said to bring his believers eternal life in Egyptian Heaven, contemplating the unutterable, indescribable glory of God.
b. When the sacred rites of Demeter at Eleusis are described as bringing believers happiness in their eternal life.
c. In fact, when ancient writers tell us that in general ancient people believed in eternal life, with the good going to the Elysian Fields and the not so good going to Hades.
d. When Vespatian's spittle healed a blind man.
e. When Apollonius of Tyana raised a girl from death, we understand that as a myth.
f.When the Pythia , the priestess at the Oracle at Delphi, in Greece, prophesied, and over and over again for a thousand years, the prophecies came true.
g. When Dionysus turned water into wine, we understand that as a myth. When Dionysus believers are filled with atay, the Spirit of God.
h. When Romulus is described as the Son of God, born of a virgin.
i. When Alexander the Great is described as the Son of God, born of a mortal woman.
j. When Augustus is described as the Son of God, born of a mortal.
k. When Dionysus is described as the Son of God, born of a mortal woman.
l. When Scipio Africanus is described as the Son of God, born of a mortal woman.

So how come when Jesus is described as:
the Son of God,
born of a mortal woman,
according to prophecy,
turning water into wine,
raising girls from the dead, and
healing blind men with his spittle,
none of it is a myth?

There no reliable evidence for a historical Jesus, but there is plenty of evidence with which we can logically deduce that Jesus was a myth, just like all the other man-gods that came before and after him. There are no compelling reasons to believe that the Jesus of the Bible could or did, exist.

[Gawen]

What do you think can be known about Jesus - who he was, what he did, what he taught and what he claimed about himself?

Very well. We'll assume that he did indeed exist. What DID this Jesus teach?
But first, the "synoptic" gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, are similar to each other, and the fourth gospel, John, is very different.  Essentially all of the ethical teachings are in the first three.  John is almost nothing but miracle stories, promises of Heaven and threats of Hell.  What little ethics there is in John is remarkable more for what it does not say.  The first three have a lot of common quotations and stories; John has no quotations in common with the others.  

The ethics of Jesus in the synoptic gospels are difficult and challenging.  But one must remember that there is an underlying thought which is predicated upon a false assumption. It must be made clear in this presentation that the ethics of Jesus are apocalyptic in nature.
Mark 1:14, 15: After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. 15: "The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"
So, straight out of the gate, Jesus is reported to have believed and taught that the world as people then knew it was coming to an end; he was an apocalyptic preacher.  Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, all speak of an apocalyptic end time, with earthquakes, famines, wars, with false prophets and religious persecutions, with mass deaths and turmoil.  He stresses that no one knows when this will happen, so we should keep ourselves ready at all times.

On to the teachings:
I submit Jesus’ main principle was preaching the end of the world with salvation as an end to worldly suffering and his teachings are the ways to achieve this.
Deny yourself
Matt.6: 19: Do not accumulate wealth.
Luke 18-25: If you have already accumulated some wealth, Jesus says to get rid of it.  
Matthew 13:44-46: Sell all you have.
Matthew 5:43, Luke 6:26:  Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. ((A reference to the Law. Leviticus 19:17-18: " 'Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt. 18: " 'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.
In both cases, in context, these verses are not meant for siblings or fellow human beings, but only insofar that your siblings and fellow human beings are either Jewish/Hebrew (as in Leviticus) or of a follower of Jesus (as in Matthew 5:43).))
Mark 16:15-16: Preach everywhere making sure that unbelievers know that they're going to hell.
Luke 19:27: Kill enemies of Jesus. Although Jesus in one instance calls for the love of enemies, at the end of the parable of ten pounds, he orders to slay his enemies that would deny his reign. Despite the commandment not to kill, Jesus accepts murdering humans here.
Matt. 10:16, Luke 10:3: Go like sheep amongst the wolves. Sheep are not considered to be among the brightest creatures on the planet, and thus the analogy is very condescending and insulting towards many Christians. But to send his disciples forth "as sheep in the midst of wolves" is not what a "good" shepherd should do.

There is so much more. To sum up:
•   Abandon all your Earthly ambitions.
•   Forsake your Earthly family and give your loyalty to God and your fellow believers.  
•   Sell everything you own and use the money to do good works.  
•   Avoid receiving any Earthly reward for your good works.  
•   Follow the Mosaic Law, both the letter and the spirit of it.  
•   Abstain from all sin, inside and out;
•   Abstain from covetousness
•   Abstain from anger
•   Abstain from lust.
•   Abstain from adultery.  
•   Do WHATEVER YOU NEED TO DO to abstain from lust.  
•   Practice strict nonviolent pacifism.
•   Do not resist evil.
•   Do not strike back.
•   Do good to those who hate you.  
•   Practice mercy and forgiveness and peacemaking.
•   Do not judge others; Judgment Day will come soon enough.  
•   Seek to purify your own character, strive to "be perfect, even as your father in Heaven is perfect."
•   Over-fulfill the Law seeking to follow the spirit of it as well as the letter.
•   Kill those that do not believe.
•   Abstain from swearing false oaths.

The Sermon on the Mount contains instructions to love one's enemies, and to "give to all who ask." Since one commonly-accepted ethical rule is "ought implies can"--that is, if one is unable to do something, then it makes no sense to say that one ought to do it--then Jesus' ethical system may be unrealistic. Based on this, “Ethical teachers, even Great ones” commonly develop full and coherent ethical systems which provide a comprehensive basis for teaching proper behavior and attitudes. Unfortunately, no such system is to be found with Jesus or the Bible. Instead we find a patchwork of homilies and pronouncements, some of which are unclear and others of which are contradictory.

The motivation for doing good deeds or moral behavior in Christianity is the fear of God. You don't want to cross God because you could lose your ticket to Hogwarts. Thus the motivation for decent behavior is purely selfish and egocentric. For serious Christians their relation to their God is often more important than their relations to other people. With God their personal eternal salvation is at stake. The moral/ethical teachings of Jesus are unethical as the reason for being moral or ethical is the fear of God's punishment and of losing the reward of eternal salvation. The believer is not rewarded for moral and ethical behavior, but for their blind faith. Genuine moral and ethical behavior do not need motivational promises of rewards, or inhumane sadistic threats of eternal torture.

How should the New Testament documents (the Gospels especially) be approached when considering these questions?

With a really long stick and God goggles off.

[Tank]

@ Gawen  

[elliebean]

:/




.....nah, I'm good.  

[Gawen]

:eek:  Wow, Gawen, I feel almost as if I hadn't read the NT many, many times, in its entirety. I fact, I almost want to read it again, just to be sure.....  :cool:

Sorry if the post was long...too long. Anyone with a 'red letter' bible can read just the stuff I posted. But a question like the type Matthew asked can't be answered in a paragraph. There's just way too much...baggage...in the Bible, which is all we have to deduce that it was inspired by a god or not, let alone the historicity of the main character. Matthew's question is on par with asking the same thing about Robin Hood or William Tell.

When one lays out all the pertinent facts, coupled with my first post in this thread (which I deleted to calm the waters), what can one now logically deduce of the guy names Jesus? If one takes away all the supernatural side effects (my first post), all one has is what I posted above. And it truly amazes me that people willingly try to make sense out of it all.

It's been said that gMark is a play, written for a stage. If it was a play, it is a badly written one, full of plagiarism lifted off Jewish beliefs and for an age that only ancient superstitious goat herders could appreciate.

Ok...I have to quit or this will be another long post...*sigh*

[elliebean]

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I wasn't criticizing your posts; I was acknowledging that, in spite of my having read the book so many times before, your posts brought to light quite a number of details I had somehow missed. Or maybe I'd glazed over them out of boredom, or was too brianwashed at the time to recognize them. At any rate, that was very informative, and, thanks!  

[Gawen]

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I wasn't criticizing your posts; I was acknowledging that, in spite of my having read the book so many times before, your posts brought to light quite a number of details I had somehow missed. Or maybe I'd glazed over them out of boredom, or was too brianwashed at the time to recognize them. At any rate, that was very informative, and, thanks!  

Silly girl...I didn't think your were criticizing me. I was only apologising because it was so long. And I sometimes tend to forget to remove my energizer battery...*grinnin*...before posting. And thanks for the compliment!!

[Gawen]

So where is Matthew? I've been waiting to see what he has to say.

[JillSwift]

So where is Matthew? I've been waiting to see what he has to say.

Ditto. I hope the deluge of responses didn't put him off.

[Davin]

So where is Matthew? I've been waiting to see what he has to say.

Ditto. I hope the deluge of responses didn't put him off.

Me too, I was lurking the dialog, I refrained from responding because I tend to unintentionally sound rude at times and didn't want him to think I'm not interested in discussing things. Besides everyone else said things better than I probably would have.

[Tank]

Matthew will be back.