Godless morality

[harriet_tubman]

Just because you want to believe in a creator, and you have a specific view of morality you want to be true, this does not justify or validate your ideas.

i never said that because i desire something to be true it is therefore true.  if i have show me.

As Albert Einstein said in these three quotes:
'Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes place is determined by laws of Nature, and therefore this holds for the action of people. For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, i.e. by a wish addressed to a Supernatural Being.'

i'm actually quite surprised einstein said this.  what he's saying is everything that happens is due to some natural law.  seems ridiculous.  how about something that was caused by a human or some other animal.  if the human mind obeys a natural law that can be measured and repeated i would like to see einstein's proof for this.  and by the way just because E says something does not mean it's true.

'A man's ethical behaviour should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.'

that quote is so vague that it has no meaning.  how do you define sympathy.  how about sympathy for racists?  is it moral to feel sympathy for the klu klux klan?

'The foundation of morality should not be made dependent on myth nor tied to any authority lest doubt about the myth or about the legitimacy of the authority imperil the foundation of sound judgment and action.'

i agree.  morality should rest on the objective fact that we live in a created universe and were created by a deity that prefers creation to destruction.

The 'moral compass' is that little voice inside us all that guides us in our actions and reacts to situation and influence. Do I really need to spell this out? As situation and influence changes, human reactions will change as we all have free will as individuals and we adapt and change to circumstance. However, that moral compass is still there. Some people will behave morally or immorally dependent upon circumstance.

what if that moral voice tells us to kill an abortion doctor?

You mentioned adultery... well, in some cases it is immoral and in others it is not. And some people will never cheat and others will. Some people only cheat when certain sets of circumstances arise whilst some will actively seek adulterous relationships. This is only to do with individual circumstances and emotions. It is based on things like upbringing, social position, availability, peer attitudes...

so how about describing for me a situation when adultery is moral.

in short, all behaviour is a reaction to a stimulus - and so is ethical behaviour as a part of the human psyche.

this is behavorism.  what your saying is

if stimulus x occurs to being y then reaction z will occur.  this reduces man to a mere computer.  input stimulus, output reaction.  there is no room for creative thinking.  i would like to know what stimulus occurred that caused newton to discover calculus.

I studied Latin and Roman history and I specialized for a year in Nero's reign, reading the original Annals of Rome (Tacitus) in Latin. He had a severe mental illness and was not able to make any decisions based upon moral guidelines. The same with Stalin and Hitler... they were irrational and were obviously acting immorally, but their mental state was the influence upon them and was created by human situations and influences. That a person like Hitler could arise and commit the atrocities he did, surely points away from the concept of a creator?
There is a lot of natural 'evil' in this world - where the patterns and outcomes (made by the creator that you would say - I would say by probability within the laws of nature) do not further creation or work for the good of the creation. Children born with fatal diseases and deformities, natural disasters that kill thousands... there is no purpose for a creator to have created a world with these outcomes contained within the design. Therefore, it is highly unlikely that there actually is any guiding hand or 'intelligent design' to the universe.

what your saying is that because the creation is flawed therefore there is no creator.  this is a fallacy.  a creation does not need to be perfect in order for it to be created.

The pyramids and my robo-skeleton army will live on in my mind as the most ridiculous 'what if' I have ever been presented.

you can't just say something is ridiculous you have to prove it

[karadan]

According to this site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index the U.S. is the 13th best country to live in. (Guess who's on top?  

[Cecilie]

According to this site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index the U.S. is the 13th best country to live in. (Guess who's on top?  

No...

[harriet_tubman]

According to this site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index the U.S. is the 13th best country to live in. (Guess who's on top?  ) .

who cares if your the 13th best country to live in, what matters is what countries do not drop bombs on other countries, what countries are doing the most to prevent the earth from overheating.  germany in 1938 probably ranked 8th on the human development index, it doesn't matter.

[Cecilie]

who cares if your the 13th best country to live in, what matters is what countries do not drop bombs on other countries, what countries are doing the most to prevent the earth from overheating.  germany in 1938 probably ranked 8th on the human development index, it doesn't matter.

It wasn't ment to be taken too seriously.

[Tanker]

You know. I'm no longer going to argue with you. Obviously, with your infinite amount of knowledge, your deep connection with the purpose of the creator, I have realized something. YOU are the creator. It all makes sense now.

On a side (and more serious note) I think you should know that I think the USA is the worst country in the world.

Wow blanket generalisations always make me warm and fuzy. I'm going to go on a limb and bet you've never even been to America and on that same limb guess you have met (Not seen met and talked to) few to no Americans. There are so many worse places in the world. Would you rather live in America for a year or Somalia for 6 months? Bet you'd pick the U.S. Also your comment is a total non sequiter.

On a side (and more serious note) I think you should know that I am alergic to mushrooms and will not eat them.

[Tanker]

who cares if your the 13th best country to live in, what matters is what countries do not drop bombs on other countries, what countries are doing the most to prevent the earth from overheating.  germany in 1938 probably ranked 8th on the human development index, it doesn't matter.

Point out one single country that never fought a war with anyone.

[Tank]

who cares if your the 13th best country to live in, what matters is what countries do not drop bombs on other countries, what countries are doing the most to prevent the earth from overheating.  germany in 1938 probably ranked 8th on the human development index, it doesn't matter.

WTF! America is busy dropping bombs in Iraq and Afghanistan and produces more carbon per capita than any other country!

[Tanker]

who cares if your the 13th best country to live in, what matters is what countries do not drop bombs on other countries, what countries are doing the most to prevent the earth from overheating.  germany in 1938 probably ranked 8th on the human development index, it doesn't matter.

WTF! America is busy dropping bombs in Iraq and Afghanistan and produces more carbon per capita than any other country!

Actually I believe that may have been HT's point.

[Tank]

who cares if your the 13th best country to live in, what matters is what countries do not drop bombs on other countries, what countries are doing the most to prevent the earth from overheating.  germany in 1938 probably ranked 8th on the human development index, it doesn't matter.

WTF! America is busy dropping bombs in Iraq and Afghanistan and produces more carbon per capita than any other country!

Actually I believe that may have been HT's point.

Ah! May have taken that the wrong way then. Apologies if that is the case.

[harriet_tubman]

WTF! America is busy dropping bombs in Iraq and Afghanistan and produces more carbon per capita than any other country!

Actually I believe that may have been HT's point.

yea, that was my point.

[Whitney]

they do not believe the universe is an "accident"  You cannot have an accident without having a being that made a mistake.  

i'm referring to the definition of the word accident that means unintended

Yes...and that is not a good word to use because something can't be unintended unless there is a being around that did not intend to do something.  If you don't want to sound like you are always assuming a creator then say uncaused when talking about a universe without a god.

and some atheists are religions (such as buddhists who would be inclined to think that supernatural forces are at play but not a god being).

atheists do not believe in supernatural beings.  

They theoretically could...atheist is just someone who doesn't believe in a god.  While most people who believe in ghosts and other similar nonsense don't tend to self describe as atheist if they didn't think a god existed they would still be an atheist.  Being an atheist doesn't make one rational; it's simply a lack of belief in a diety.

Most atheists fall into the "I don't know how the universe got here but I see no reason to assume a god had a hand in it" camp.

in this case, some atheists do not understand what the word God means.  God refers to that intelligence responsible for the universe's creation.  many theists try to attach attributes on to God, such as he dictated the koran but this is false.

to say that yes the universe was created but God did not do it is a contradiction.  that would be like saying these words were written but they were not written by a writer.

  Not sure what any of this has to do with what I said....

I don't care if some atheists tend to always talk about the a religious god when defending their atheism.  Them having emotional hangups does not affect what the word atheist means nor how the majority of atheists will respond to questions about how the universe got here.

If an alien race from another universe created our universe then that alien race would be a creator but not supernatural or god....so it's not a contradiction.  In order for something to fit the intention of the word god it must be a supernatural being that created everything that exists.

[Davin]

There is still the problem from your original post that is still unresolved: where did right and wrong come from. I gave an explanation of where right and wrong come from, it's time for quid pro quo: Which idea of right and wrong did not come from a human?

[harriet_tubman]

There is still the problem from your original post that is still unresolved: where did right and wrong come from. I gave an explanation of where right and wrong come from, it's time for quid pro quo: Which idea of right and wrong did not come from a human?

i already answer that with this

if you believe in a designed universe then good is that which furthers the original objective of the designer, namely, that the design should continue, resist destruction, sustain itself, grow and become larger, more complex, less painful, more efficient. i believe in a designed universe. good is that which helps the larger objective of the universe.

[Davin]

i already answer that with this

if you believe in a designed universe then good is that which furthers the original objective of the designer, namely, that the design should continue, resist destruction, sustain itself, grow and become larger, more complex, less painful, more efficient. i believe in a designed universe. good is that which helps the larger objective of the universe.

So right and wrong come from humans deciding what is right and what is wrong.