Godless morality

[harriet_tubman]

a lot of atheists don't want to admit that but ultimately they just fall back on a tyranny of the cooperative: good is that which helps the largest group or the most powerful group.

But that is what theists do!

no the theist believe there is a right and wrong irregardless of what any cooperative belives

The funny thing is that most people who subscribe to Social Darwinism are religious.  I would bet every penny I have that, the percentage of atheists who support Social Darwinism is far smaller than the percentage of religious folks that do.*  

In example; Republicans in America strongly support Social Darwinism.  They believe that the economy should be a completely free market economy with no controls whatsoever where the powerful can be in complete control.  They want to be free of regulations that prevent monopolies, free of minimum wages and mandated safety regulations, and they want all government attempts to assist those less fortunate stopped completely.  Most Republicans are Christians.  The percentage of atheist Republicans is minuscule, far lower than the percentage of atheists in the general population.

[/quote]
i'm not a republican, i'm actually a green and yes, a lot of right-winged christians give theism a bad name

[harriet_tubman]

Where does one's sense of right and wrong come from? The conscience. Where does the conscience come from? The brain. Where does the brain come from? Well, you see, a long time ago the only life on earth was bacteria.....

odd, why is it that napoleon's conscience and abraham lincolon's conscience say such different things

[Sophus]

Where does one's sense of right and wrong come from? The conscience. Where does the conscience come from? The brain. Where does the brain come from? Well, you see, a long time ago the only life on earth was bacteria.....

odd, why is it that napoleon's conscience and abraham lincolon's conscience say such different things

My point exactly. There is no absolute Right or Wrong.

[Sophus]

Does it matter if there is an intention behind it if ultimately the race for survival leads to a place where everything attempts to evolve to"resist destruction, sustain itself, grow and become larger, more complex, less painful, more efficient"...is that not what evolution does?

no, blind forces do not work in coordination.  what's good for the snake is bad for the mouse.  darwin and dawkins do not believe that blind forces are working together to form a more magnificent whole.

Did you ever read The BLIND Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins?

[Whitney]

Does it matter if there is an intention behind it if ultimately the race for survival leads to a place where everything attempts to evolve to"resist destruction, sustain itself, grow and become larger, more complex, less painful, more efficient"...is that not what evolution does?

no, blind forces do not work in coordination.  what's good for the snake is bad for the mouse.  darwin and dawkins do not believe that blind forces are working together to form a more magnificent whole.

Thanks for proving that you haven't read either of their books.

It's actually best for both the snake and the mouse if they survive in balance...if the snake eats all the mice the snake dies too; if the snakes die out the mice become overpopulated and then eat up all of their food source and die too.  Life can only continue where there is healthy balance.  

Now...are you ready to discuss instead of pretending you are teaching?

[Davin]

a lot of atheists don't want to admit that but ultimately they just fall back on a tyranny of the cooperative: good is that which helps the largest group or the most powerful group.

But that is what theists do!

no the theist believe there is a right and wrong irregardless of what any cooperative belives

A theist may believe there is an absolute moral code, but they can never agree on what that absolute moral code is. Some Christians thought that owning slaves was a god given moral right. Some Christians thought it was a good idea to torture millions of people just because they didn't believe in the same fairy tale. In the bible god commands the "chosen people" to rape and murder, even in the new testimate god requests Jeptha to sacrifice his daughter... is all this ok with you?

[harriet_tubman]

a lot of atheists don't want to admit that but ultimately they just fall back on a tyranny of the cooperative: good is that which helps the largest group or the most powerful group.

But that is what theists do!

no the theist believe there is a right and wrong irregardless of what any cooperative belives

A theist may believe there is an absolute moral code, but they can never agree on what that absolute moral code is. Some Christians thought that owning slaves was a god given moral right. Some Christians thought it was a good idea to torture millions of people just because they didn't believe in the same fairy tale. In the bible god commands the "chosen people" to rape and murder, even in the new testimate god requests Jeptha to sacrifice his daughter... is all this ok with you?

i'm well aware that theists are capable of having a primitive morality.  no one really seems to understand where right and wrong come from.  there can only be "good" if there is a goal.  without goals there is no standard by which one can measure an actions goodness.  i think most theists will agree that the goal of the designer is to see his design continue in the most pleasant, less painful way possible.  as far as what actions contribute to the design's continuity that's a much more difficult debate.

[elliebean]

no one really seems to agree with me about where right and wrong come from.

FIFY!  

[JillSwift]

there can only be "good" if there is a goal.  without goals there is no standard by which one can measure an actions goodness.  i think most theists will agree that the goal of the designer is to see his design continue in the most pleasant, less painful way possible.  as far as what actions contribute to the design's continuity that's a much more difficult debate.

Where is the evidence for this designer? How do you know what the designer's goals are?

[pinkocommie]

i think most theists will agree that the goal of the designer is to see his design continue in the most pleasant, less painful way possible.  as far as what actions contribute to the design's continuity that's a much more difficult debate.

There was a point in time where most people thought the earth was flat.  Majorities are very capable of being incorrect, especially when they make assumptions such as the existence of a designer, let alone that assumed designer's assumed goal.

[harriet_tubman]

There was a point in time where most people thought the earth was flat.  Majorities are very capable of being incorrect, especially when they make assumptions such as the existence of a designer, let alone that assumed designer's assumed goal.

i'm not really interested in debating the existence of a designer.  i've been down that back and forth road before.  i'm here to debate the nature of right and wrong.

the designer's goal is not hard to fathom.  if you design something then we can infer that you prefer construction to destruction.  if the designer loved destruction we wouldn't be here.  you have to use the anthropic principle.

[Davin]

i'm well aware that theists are capable of having a primitive morality.  no one really seems to understand where right and wrong come from.  there can only be "good" if there is a goal.  without goals there is no standard by which one can measure an actions goodness.  i think most theists will agree that the goal of the designer is to see his design continue in the most pleasant, less painful way possible.  as far as what actions contribute to the design's continuity that's a much more difficult debate.

We almost all have similar goals: to be safe, to be happy, to be fed, to be comfortable... etc. Because of these similar goals, we all help each other out so that we all can achieve them. Working together has allowed the majority to achieve most of their goals.

No creator is required for us all to want to be safe and therefore create rules that we all abide by to keep us safe.

On a side note, if Christianity doesn't stop people from having "primitive morality" then what is the point? Maybe what is needed is to explain why things are bad and good instead of just saying there is some supreme "moral" (I put that in quotes because there are lots of examples in the bible that show that this version of god is very immoral), entity that will punish them.

[JillSwift]

i'm not really interested in debating the existence of a designer.  i've been down that back and forth road before.  i'm here to debate the nature of right and wrong.

the designer's goal is not hard to fathom.  if you design something then we can infer that you prefer construction to destruction.  if the designer loved destruction we wouldn't be here.  you have to use the anthropic principle.

What? You posit a designer as the source of a moral system, but won't debate the designer?

That's rather disingenuous, isn't it?

[pinkocommie]

i'm not really interested in debating the existence of a designer.  i've been down that back and forth road before.  i'm here to debate the nature of right and wrong.

the designer's goal is not hard to fathom.  if you design something then we can infer that you prefer construction to destruction.  if the designer loved destruction we wouldn't be here.  you have to use the anthropic principle.

What? You posit a designer as the source of a moral system, but won't debate the designer?

That's rather disingenuous, isn't it?

Exactly.  Harriet_tubman, your explanation of right and wrong hinges on the acceptance of a designer.  You're in an atheist forum.  The existence of your supposed designer seems to be at the heart of your argument, yet you won't debate the designer's existence?   Seems pretty pointless to continue the conversation.

I'm going to go ahead and take the position that right and wrong are derived from a wise magic turtle.  Also, I will not debate the existence of the wise magic turtle.  Most followers of the Turtle believe its goal is to make its creations happy and inspire successful propagation.  Totally makes sense.  

[Cecilie]

I'm going to go ahead and take the position that right and wrong are derived from a wise magic turtle.

I like to think that god is Professor Dumbledore.