Talking to the devout about morality--help!

[Heretical Rants]

bleah

[Tank]

This girl I like is a super devout liberal Christian, and we were talking about the basis of our morality (I know, bad idea, right?), so when she said that she based her morality off of the Bible, I asked, "Which parts of the Bible?" (I know, even worse idea...)

She then freaked out and wrote me an angry letter spelling out the standard spiel about exactly how Jesus, by living a sinless life and sacrificing himself, cancelled out the laws of the Old Testament, saying, "Not that you deserve an explanation..."

So, basically she's saying that God is loving NOW, but wasn't before 2000 years ago?  Did the death of His Son straighten him out?  Why does that make modern day Christians "sinless?" What happened?  

Actually, her response scares me... I don't want her to be mad at me...

Help?

Sounds like she's beyond help to me. Why do you like her and where do you want this relationship to go?

[Heretical Rants]

She really is smart and rational about just about everything else....

[Tank]

She really is smart and rational about just about everything else....

So you like her because she is smart and you are prepared to work around her faith to pursue a relationship with her. What sort of relationship? Are we talking friend or potentially something physical?

[Logikos]

So, basically she's saying that God is loving NOW, but wasn't before 2000 years ago?

What did she say in her letter that implied this?  (I would take a guess that she isn't a process theologian! )

[Heretical Rants]

She implied that the laws of the Old Testament were valid at some point in time.  Since no loving God could possibly have such a set of laws....

[Logikos]

She implied that the laws of the Old Testament were valid at some point in time.  Since no loving God could possibly have such a set of laws....

That seems to be what you're saying, not what she's saying.  She might well agree with you, in which case that might be a good place to restart your discussion with her in order to challenge her beliefs.  Personally, I don't find any inconsistency on God's part for the laws of the Israelites and their subsequent fulfilment in the New Testament, but I am open to discussion about different examples if you'd like (though I will certainly admit that without exploring the context in which they arose many do seem to grate on our more modern sensibilities).

[Heretical Rants]

So you like her because she is smart and you are prepared to work around her faith to pursue a relationship with her. What sort of relationship? Are we talking friend or potentially something physical?

Both.


She says she's not mad, now, but judging by what she's said since, she seems to think that I am a Christian as well
If anything, I need to clear that up.

[davidraphael]

It's simple.

If God is loving 'now' he wouldn't permit suffering and pain now. After all, he is supposedly omnipotent, right?
If he is able to stop suffering but refuses he is malevolent. If cannot stop suffering he is not omnipotent, therefore not god.

What? She thinks that God changed over the years between the old and new testament? He chilled out? This isn't logically possible because he is supposedly omniscient, which means that he knew he would be (supposedly) less violent in the future, which means he knew the difference between being loving and being cruel while he was being cruel, which of course, only emphasises his cruelty.

btw, here're some quotes from JC being loving:

""Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household." (Matthew 10:34-37) (someth9ing similar is also said in Luke)

"He said to them, 'But now if you have a purse, take it and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.  (Luke 22:36)" (I doubt the sword was intended as a kitchen utensil)

Here's one that hardly demonstrates tolerance:
"“I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence. (Luke 19:26-27)"


One only has to look at modern day Christians to see that they are not sinless. They kill when they're not supposed to. And they do not love their neighbors. They actively call for the death of certain groups. As they say, without religion you have good people being good and bad people being bad. But it takes religion to make a good person do something bad'

Also, studies* have shown that there is a high incidence of spousal and child abuse in evangelical families, higher than many other groups, in fact.
And if one wants to be specific about a denomination, the catholic church's refusal to permit condoms has caused the deaths of millions of Africans. And is it even necessary to mention child abuse by priests?


*examples in The Fundamentals of Extremism: the christian right in America by kimberley blaker.

[Tank]

So you like her because she is smart and you are prepared to work around her faith to pursue a relationship with her. What sort of relationship? Are we talking friend or potentially something physical?

Both.


She says she's not mad, now, but judging by what she's said since, she seems to think that I am a Christian as well
If anything, I need to clear that up.

Here's something to consider. Find common ground as that is what friendship and relationships are founded on. Agree to differ on the belief issues tell her you respect her point of view and that you are entitled to your world view just as she is hers and then as much as possible make faith a non-issue. If you can't put faith in the background it'll blow the relationship out of the water before it's started. IF, and it's a big IF, you can sideline the faith issue then just get to know your friend and find out if you have enough in common to make a go of it.

[Heretical Rants]

I dunno, her faith seems to play a really large roll in her life.

[Tank]

I dunno, her faith seems to play a really large roll in her life.

Then you probably have a problem. You could always become her 'project'! You'll get lots of attention if you can stand it  

[Logikos]

David, for a start most of your comments have little to do with the thread topic.  As for the comments themselves:

It's simple.

If God is loving 'now' he wouldn't permit suffering and pain now. After all, he is supposedly omnipotent, right?
If he is able to stop suffering but refuses he is malevolent. If cannot stop suffering he is not omnipotent, therefore not god.

The logical problem of evil is easily countered: simply posit the premise (P) that God has a morally sufficient reason for permitting the degree of suffering we know of.  You might find the evidential problem of evil more easy to defend.

What? She thinks that God changed over the years between the old and new testament? He chilled out? This isn't logically possible because he is supposedly omniscient, which means that he knew he would be (supposedly) less violent in the future, which means he knew the difference between being loving and being cruel while he was being cruel, which of course, just makes him cruel.

Given that God is typically held to be atemporal, that would provide a rather less convoluted argument.  

btw, here's some quotes from JC being loving:

""Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household." (Matthew 10:34-37) (someth9ing similar is also said in Luke)

As is familiar to most people, the sword is a well-known metaphor for the gospel (eg see Hebrews 4) which divides people even within their own families.

"He said to them, 'But now if you have a purse, take it and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.  (Luke 22:36)" (I doubt the sword was intended as a kitchen utensil)

Read on through the rest of the chapter, and you will see that Jesus did not in fact intend the swords to be used violently.

Here's one that hardly demonstrates tolerance:
"“I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence. (Luke 19:26-27)"

Welcome to the world of parables.  I suggest you read Luke 19:11-27.

One only has to look at modern day Christians to see that they are not sinless. They kill when they're not supposed to. And they do not love their neighbors. They actively call for the death of certain groups. As they say, without religion you have good people being good and bad people being bad. But it takes religion to make a good person do something bad'

Also, studies* have shown that there is a high incidence of spousal and child abuse in evangelical families, higher than many other groups, in fact.
And if one wants to be specific about a denomination, the catholic church's refusal to permit condoms has caused the deaths of millions of Africans. And is it even necessary to mention child abuse by priests?

*examples in The Fundamentals of Extremism: the christian right in America by kimberley blaker.

The phrase in bold is an incoherent notion.  A good person is one who, by definition, does good.  Plus, the Bible does not say that the gospel makes people sinless - as demonstrated by Paul's regular instructions to Christians in his letters not to sin.

[Heretical Rants]

David, for a start most of your comments have little to do with the thread topic.

They might be a continuation of what I said about the laws in the Old Testament.  I can't imagine any situation in which slavery would be OK, for example, and there seem to be a lot of laws related to slavery, like the regulations on selling your daughter into slavery.

...but yeah, off-topic and not helpful.

[Logikos]

I can't imagine any situation in which slavery would be OK, for example, and there seem to be a lot of laws related to slavery, like the regulations on selling your daughter into slavery.

The issue of slavery is actually an example where the OT laws are incredibly loving indeed - but we need to understand the context.  When we read the word "slavery" we think of forced labour - but that is not what slavery was in the ANE.  We can go into it more if you're interested.