An interesting note on the catholic Church

[SSY]

One of the primary responsibilities of the us Government is to protect its Children. If there is any threat to its children, by the nature of a single organization, then this would be made evident and action taken.
Given the media focus on the Catholic Church, one would expect that this organization handling of children, would be the subject of government reports. However take the following report by the US government. http://www.canadiancrc.com/PDFs/US_DHHS ... t_2003.pdf
It has no single mention of the Catholic church. This should not come as  surprise as the catholic church is an institute dedicated to taking care of all people, especially children for over 2000 years.

Wow, just let me check something with you. Your argument is, that if catholic abuse of children were such a big problem, that the US government would include it in this specific report? Do you think that this masterful piece of deduction is strong enough to over-rule the claims of the thousands of people who have come forward about their abuse at the hands of the catholic church? Do you concede that the numbers in the first post are not supported or verified and therefore of zero value in this argument?

The thing I like most about this, is that I said "even if the catholic church did a load of good stuff, it would still be in the wrong here", and you then tried to convince me that the catholic church did a load of good stuff, instead of trying to counter my arguments on a logical level, you just posted a load of links to dodgy statistics and no argument.

Do you concede that the numbers in the first post are not supported or verified and therefore of zero value in this argument?

No for the following reason, if you were to substitute the stats from
http://www.usccb.org/comm/catholic-chur ... tics.shtml

Then the article with regards to its point about the good work done, will still be as meaningful.

With regards to possible inaccuracy of the stats provided by the Church, you can be sure, given the medias anti catholic agenda, it would make headlines like “Catholic bishops give fake statistics”
Given that there has been no such headlines, you can be sure of its accuracy.

"even if the catholic church did a load of good stuff, it would still be in the wrong here",

Most definitely yes. It is in the wrong. However the question is does it teach or have a governance that is conducive for such wrong?

My answer is no, as if it did, the governments in all the different countries would shut it down.

Please note that Catholics are a community of sinners, coming together to try their best to become better.
They are on a journey, some make rapid progress, while others stagnate and even go backwards. So it would not surprise me, if some one told me, the greatest sinners in history were Catholics. It is there to welcome sinners, not to encourage them in sin, but to help them to become better people.

I do not accept the figures from the United conference of catholic bishops, I have seen no proof of their veracity. The first and third reference are a book, published by the catholic church, which I cannot get hold of. The second source the UCCB use, is themselves... The fourth is a self reporting survey where Catholic charities write in to say how awesome they are. Do you believe any of this? why should I believe it? Do you have any proof? Your assertion that if it were false, then people would find out and expose it, is laughable, absolutely desirable and completely contrary to spirit of academic and investigative enquiry.

Then the conversation jerks wildly.

. However the question is does it teach or have a governance that is conducive for such wrong?

What? Since when? where have you said that before? Is it a case of no one swallowing your rubbish and you trying to direct the thread in another direction to try and save face? This problem is a particularly intractable one, but I would say there is certainly an argument that the catholic church is indeed an atmosphere conducive to abuse of children, as evidenced by the many cases of institutionalized abuse, and the associated cover ups by people higher up, and enabling the priests to go on abusing. This however is not the reason I originally entered this thread.

To be honest, your repeated assertion that "well, if the church were so bad, the US government would do something about it" is pathetic; it is a shining example of anti-intellectualism, completely bereft of logic and integrity. Can you think of nothing where despite a movement being bad, the government has done little to stop it?

[Sophus]

This should not come as surprise as the catholic church is an institute dedicated to taking care of all people, especially children for over 2000 years.

Oh yeah, they took real good care of people during the Inquisition. In the same way the Mafia takes care of people. Btw if it's the government's job to solve the problem, and certain priests within Catholicism are the problem, then.... ta-da!

[pinkocommie]

Please note that Catholics are a community of sinners, coming together to try their best to become better.
They are on a journey, some make rapid progress, while others stagnate and even go backwards. So it would not surprise me, if some one told me, the greatest sinners in history were Catholics. It is there to welcome sinners, not to encourage them in sin, but to help them to become better people.

I don't know man, it seems like you're just making excuses for child molesters.  Would you be willing to tell the victim of this kind of abuse that their priest was trying to do their best, but hey, we're all sinners?  I would argue that most everyone is 'doing their best' in the same way you describe Catholics doing their best, so this comment is pretty worthless besides being some lame excuse for horrible behavior.  And don't kid yourself, willingly covering up abuse, especially when in a position of influence and power, is horrible, inexcusable behavior.

[Davin]

With regards to possible inaccuracy of the stats provided by the Church, you can be sure, given the medias anti catholic agenda, it would make headlines like “Catholic bishops give fake statistics”
Given that there has been no such headlines, you can be sure of its accuracy.

Hahaha, good one.

Most definitely yes. It is in the wrong. However the question is does it teach or have a governance that is conducive for such wrong?

I think that is shown when people fairly high up in the church support covering it up and not even kicking the people, who committed the crimes, out of their church. That is a very clearly conducive environment for the people to continue committing the acts because; they are protected by the church, hidden by the church and not punished by the church.

My answer is no, as if it did, the governments in all the different countries would shut it down.

Faulty if/then logic. Surely if the Catholic church just went around torturing and killing people just by accusing them of heresy, then the governments would stop that right? The thing you seem to be missing here is that religion is given special treatment like dealing with 3 year olds and Santa Claus: you know Santa isn't real, but if you tell them the truth they will cry.

Anyway, the statistics you cited are not how much the church provides charitably, but how much goes through the places the church owns. Example: Catholic schools are not free, people pay for their children to attend, so that just makes it a business, not charitable. To show how charitable the church is you need to provide things like how many people the Catholic church helped out by paying/providing for their education of medical care. Otherwise, by your logic secular hospitals are a million times more charitable because they treat billions of people.

[Recusant]

I actually appreciate your attempt to give some more or less credible sources for some of the statistics thrown out by Miller in his speech/article, fdesilva.  Whatever the exact numbers, I for one am willing to stipulate that the Catholic church does run educational and medical institutions, and that it also does charitable work.  On the other hand, my personal interest was piqued by the numbers given in the below paragraph from Miller:

 

Let me give you some figures that Catholics should know and remember. For example, 12% of the 300 Protestant clergy surveyed admitted to sexual intercourse with a parishioner; 38% acknowledged other inappropriate sexual contact in a study by the United Methodist Church , 41.8% of clergy women reported unwanted sexual behavior; 17% of laywomen have been sexually harassed. Meanwhile, 1.7% of the Catholic clergy has been found guilty of pedophilia. 10% of the Protestant ministers have been found guilty of pedophilia. This is not a Catholic Problem.

Some of this seemed dubious, to put it mildly.  And in fact, even The Orate Fratres site has had a question about Miller's accuracy.  I've done a quick search for a possible source for these statistics, and I have not met with success so far, but when I have time, maybe I'll do more looking.  I think that it's quite possible that Miller has made some "mistakes" in the above quoted paragraph.  Looking at the article as a whole, I find it unconvincing-- a poor attempt at rhetoric-- "The Catholic church is no worse than other denominations when it comes to hanky panky, and all the good it does in the world more than makes up for the bad stuff anyway." Fatuous, flim-flamming drivel, or in good old Anglo-Saxon: bullshit.

"The Catholic church is a force for good in the world," an intelligence² debate from the BBC:

 [youtube:suifbunx]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kuzYwzGoXw[/youtube:suifbunx]

[fdesilva]

I actually appreciate your attempt to give some more or less credible sources for some of the statistics thrown out by Miller in his speech/article, fdesilva.  Whatever the exact numbers, I for one am willing to stipulate that the Catholic church does run educational and medical institutions, and that it also does charitable work.  On the other hand, my personal interest was piqued by the numbers given in the below paragraph from Miller:

 

Let me give you some figures that Catholics should know and remember. For example, 12% of the 300 Protestant clergy surveyed admitted to sexual intercourse with a parishioner; 38% acknowledged other inappropriate sexual contact in a study by the United Methodist Church , 41.8% of clergy women reported unwanted sexual behavior; 17% of laywomen have been sexually harassed. Meanwhile, 1.7% of the Catholic clergy has been found guilty of pedophilia. 10% of the Protestant ministers have been found guilty of pedophilia. This is not a Catholic Problem.

Some of this seemed dubious, to put it mildly.  And in fact, even The Orate Fratres site has had a question about Miller's accuracy.  I've done a quick search for a possible source for these statistics, and I have not met with success so far, but when I have time, maybe I'll do more looking.  I think that it's quite possible that Miller has made some "mistakes" in the above quoted paragraph.  Looking at the article as a whole, I find it unconvincing-- a poor attempt at rhetoric-- "The Catholic church is no worse than other denominations when it comes to hanky panky, and all the good it does in the world more than makes up for the bad stuff anyway." Fatuous, flim-flamming drivel, or in good old Anglo-Saxon: bullshit.

"The Catholic church is a force for good in the world," an intelligence² debate from the BBC:

It is not debateable that the catholic church is a force for good for the following reason.
Consider the population of Catholics in the world, That’s  the group of people that profess to be catholic and who contribute to the upkeep of its many charitable works (as stipulated in those statistics).
Now ask each and every one of them, “Do you intend to be a force of good in the world?”
What percentage do you think will say yes? I put it to you that most people(independent of catholic or not) asked that question would say yes.
So then the catholic church is a tangible force of good in the world, as made evident by the many charitable institutes run by them and by the expressed intent of all its members.

Here is another article of interest
http://paulseaman.eu/2010/03/in-defence ... eputation/

[Davin]

It is not debateable that the catholic church is a force for good for the following reason.

It's always debatable.

Consider the population of Catholics in the world, That’s  the group of people that profess to be catholic and who contribute to the upkeep of its many charitable works (as stipulated in those statistics).
Now ask each and every one of them, “Do you intend to be a force of good in the world?”
What percentage do you think will say yes? I put it to you that most people(independent of catholic or not) asked that question would say yes.

So the Catholic church is no better than people that aren't Catholic... what is your point?

So then the catholic church is a tangible force of good in the world, as made evident by the many charitable institutes run by them and by the expressed intent of all its members.

You still haven't shown statistic that shows how charitable the Catholic church is, you have only shown things like: "Hospitals: 562 Catholic hospitals treated 85,283,351 patients" and "Total Catholic elementary and high school enrollment: 2,283,767"... while this could be useful if ever a statistic about the charity the Catholic church comes up, but in themselves, those statistics are useless for showing the charity of the Catholic church.

Here is another article of interest
http://paulseaman.eu/2010/03/in-defence ... eputation/

That's not a defense of the Catholic church, it's just showing that many other places were bad also. This article is missing the point. We don't treat a killer better just because other people are killing... It reminds me of what children say to their parents when they're in trouble or want to be allowed to do something, "well they're doing it!" Does that really fly with your children? "Well sure, since your friends are smoking crack you go right ahead, son."

[elliebean]

So Catholics are really, really good people who want to be a positive force in the world. Great. Then it follows that they should have no problem exposing those (particularly their own priests, etc.) who abuse children, along with those who aid and abet them (ie. enable, ie. cover up), regardless of how high up the chain they have to go, and turn them over the the appropriate authorities to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. End of story.

[fdesilva]

Nice statistics... however since most of the people attending private Catholic schools are being paid for by the families, I don't see how this helps with what seemed to be your point that Catholics help out with education. With people paying for the schools, all it makes the Catholic church is a business. However, if your point is that the Catholic church is providing charitable educational services then you need to provide the statistics of how charitable the organization is, not how many people attend places that people pay for themselves. The same goes for health care services. I mean it sure is nice that an organization is willing to something in exchange for money but if you go by that logic, then Safeway, Fry's and Albertsons are probably the most charitable companies because they provide food to millions of people every day
.......

You still haven't shown statistic that shows how charitable the Catholic church is, you have only shown things like: "Hospitals: 562 Catholic hospitals treated 85,283,351 patients" and "Total Catholic elementary and high school enrollment: 2,283,767"... while this could be useful if ever a statistic about the charity the Catholic church comes up, but in themselves, those statistics are useless for showing the charity of the Catholic church.

It follows from the stats for the reasons given below.
In nearly every country of the world a government is appointed by the people of the country. The government based on the opinion of the people defines,  a class of organization as charitable. That is they do not take any profit. Under this classification, all the catholic run places are charitable. One of the differences between a health care system that is non profit and one that is not is that in the case of the former it can take no profit, further the cost of the care given, in most cases even when paid is further subsidized by charitable donors. Also in the case of a charitable organization all accounts need to be transparent.
Now if there were no organization that were non-profit then the competition faced, by the for profit businesses, will be vastly reduced and will lead to a price hike. Further in nearly all catholic institutes in the case of study full scholarships are given to students that cannot afford it. In the same applies to medical care by way of subsidy.

[Whitney]

Also in the case of a charitable organization all accounts need to be transparent.

Does the catholic church have 501c3 status?  If not then they do not have to provide detailed accounts of their finances nor do they have to operate as a non-profit business.

Have you seen the Vatican lately?....don't try to tell us the church is not operating in the black.

Not to mention that I don't care how a government defines a charitable organization; it doesn't matter when discussing ethics and is a red herring.

[fdesilva]

Here is an article with the same stats as the article in question
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/co ... 778004.htm
also of interest
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2005/14/Revenue_1.html

http://www.zenit.org/article-22024?l=english

[fdesilva]

Have you seen the Vatican lately?....don't try to tell us the church is not operating in the black.

How do you intend to do charity if your in the red?

[Whitney]

Have you seen the Vatican lately?....don't try to tell us the church is not operating in the black.

How do you intend to do charity if your in the red?

They should be in neither the black or the red when all is balanced out.

Do you think fancy clothing and high end living quarters is a charitable expense?

[fdesilva]

Have you seen the Vatican lately?....don't try to tell us the church is not operating in the black.

How do you intend to do charity if your in the red?

They should be in neither the black or the red when all is balanced out.

Do you think fancy clothing and high end living quarters is a charitable expense?

If you go to a catholic service on a sunday, you would find that there is 2 collection. One collection is for the upkeep of the church (fancy cloths, food for cleargy,buidings etc) and the 2nd for the other charities. Now if the people giving this money don't have a problem with it why should any one else?

[Whitney]

You are the one trying to argue that the catholic church is such a great charity that it makes up for a few (a lot) pedophilia charges.....


I don't care what people do with their own money; I do care about corrupt organizations that try to pretend they are moral authorities.