An interesting note on the catholic Church

[fdesilva]

Excerpts of an article written by non-Catholic Sam Miller - a prominent Cleveland Jewish businessman:

"Why would newspapers carry on a vendetta on one of the most important institutions that we have today in the United States, namely the Catholic Church?

Do you know - the Catholic Church educates 2.6 million students everyday at the cost to that Church of 10 billion dollars, and a savings on the other hand to the American taxpayer of 18 billion dollars. The graduates go on to graduate studies at the rate of 92%.

The Church has 230 colleges and universities in the U.S. with an enrollment of 700,000 students.

The Catholic Church has a non-profit hospital system of 637 hospitals, which account for hospital treatment of 1 out of every 5 people - not just Catholics - in the United States today

But the press is vindictive and trying to totally denigrate in every way the Catholic Church in this country. They have blamed the disease of pedophilia on the Catholic Church, which is as irresponsible as blaming adultery on the institution of marriage.

Let me give you some figures that Catholics should know and remember. For example, 12% of the 300 Protestant clergy surveyed admitted to sexual intercourse with a parishioner; 38% acknowledged other inappropriate sexual contact in a study by the United Methodist Church , 41.8% of clergy women reported unwanted sexual behavior; 17% of laywomen have been sexually harassed. Meanwhile, 1.7% of the Catholic clergy has been found guilty of pedophilia. 10% of the Protestant ministers have been found guilty of pedophilia. This is not a Catholic Problem.

A study of American priests showed that most are happy in the priesthood and find it even better than they had expected, and that most, if given the choice, would choose to be priests again in face of all this obnoxious PR the church has been receiving.

The Catholic Church is bleeding from self-inflicted wounds. The agony that Catholics have felt and suffered is not necessarily the fault of the Church. You have been hurt by a small number of wayward priests that have probably been totally weeded out by now.

Walk with your shoulders high and you head higher. Be a proud member of the most important non-governmental agency in the United States . Then remember what Jeremiah said: 'Stand by the roads, and look and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way is and walk in it, and find rest for your souls'. Be proud to speak up for your faith with pride and reverence and learn what your Church does for all other religions.

 

[hismikeness]

I grew up Catholic. My grandfather, after my grandmother passed away, returned to the seminary and became a priest. For me, this whole child abuse problem breaks down this way:

I would imagine, without hard statistics to back this up, that the percentage of priests that abuse children is far less than the percentage of average people who abuse children. So for me, the issue isn't so much about the abuse, even though I can imagine some of these evil fucks using the threat of punishment from God to force "cooperation" from the children, but it's more about the cover up of the problem. That, I believe, is what is driving many Catholics away. It's what drove me away from the church, but not what led me to be an atheist.

Hismikeness

[SSY]

snip

Citation needed. That is laughable frankly.

Firstly, I don't for a second believe all the education claims, but even if I did (which I don't) and even if I believed the hospital claims, and even if I believed both of these things came with no strings, that would make no difference. Just because you give some small amount of money to some small number of people, does not make molesting kids all right. Then, pathetically, the author goes on the attack the protestant church, with figures I don't for one second believe are accurate (not that I am a great defender of the protestant church, but do you really think 38% admitted to naughtiness?), not only presenting figures which are dubious at best, but comparing people having "inappropriate sexual contact" which could mean as little as a slap on the arse, to paedophilia, very disingenuous.

While we are here, trying to downplay 1.7% paedophilia rate as small compared to others, 1.7% is massive in this context. Would you send your kids to a school where 1.7% of the teachers are paedophiles?

 Also, "totally weeded out by now"? Are you joking? the catholic church has endeavoured for decades to cover this stuff up, I doubt that all of a sudden they have cleaned house. More so than that, I think that paedophilic tendencies are an unavoidable consequence of the church doctrine, celibate old virgins telling others how to live their sex lives is not a recipe for success.

Who the hell is this non catholic Jew with such a hard on for the catholic church anyway? Why does he love the Catholics so much, yet seem to daemonise protestants? Even if I leave aside his motivations, where is he getting his numbers from?

fdesilva, can I surmise that you are a catholic from this? Also, another post where you just post a quote from an article with no discussion? What is the point in that? Are you even going to bother defending this?

Edit: UPDATE! original article here. Published on a blog called Orates Fratres, a phrase used in Roman Mass. First seen in "the May-June issue of the Buckeye Bulletin". No sources, references or bibliographies are attached, I think it is safe to ignore everything he says, especially if you read the full article at the link, you can see the bias he has against protestants. This bias seems to stem from the fact that Catholics and Jews emigrated to to the USA at the same time, and were (as he sees it) mistreated by the resident protestants. He goes on to imply protestants are the modern version of the KKK.

[Recusant]

Link to the full article.  It was apparently originally published in the Buckeye Bulletin, whatever that is.  A Goo gle search turned up this and this and this, among others.  However, it cannot be found in this rather extensive list of Ohio (the "Buckeye State") newspapers and media outlets... The article has been widely quoted and (big surprise here!) praised on various Catholic forums and sites, usually in the abbreviated form used by fdesilva.  No citations at all for the statistics the piece uses, which is another big surprise.  

A side note: Catholic education, so vaunted by Miller, is not wholly a positive element in society.  I know from personal experience that tender young minds can be badly warped by what occasionally goes on in Catholic schools.  I'm not talking about religious indoctrination, either.

EDIT: Ah, I see you beat me to it, SSY.  

[SSY]

Great minds think alike old boy.

[fdesilva]

Firstly, I don't for a second believe all the education claims, but even if I did (which I don't) and even if I believed the hospital claims,

Statistics
Source: http://www.usccb.org/comm/catholic-chur ... tics.shtml
Source2: http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/ ... 09_058.asp

There are 68,115,001 Catholics in the United States1 (22% of the U.S. population),
..........
Catholic Education11
•   Total Catholic elementary and high school enrollment: 2,283,767
•   Elementary Schools: 6,133 schools educating 1,609,387 students
•   High Schools: 1,341 schools educating 674,380 students
•   Colleges and Universities: 234 institutions educating 795,823 students
•   Non-residential Schools for Handicapped Persons: 66 schools educating 6,304 students
•   Public School Students Receiving Religious Education:
o   Elementary School students: 3,080,838
o   High School students: 722,599

Catholic Health Care12
•   Hospitals: 562 Catholic hospitals treated 85,283,351 patients
•   Other Health Care Centers: 373 centers treated 6,703,167 patients
•   Specialized Homes: 1,643 assisted 936,900 residents
•   Residential Care of Children: 403 locations assisted 33,952 residents

[Sophus]

I'm more interested in seeing the sources for these statistics:

Meanwhile, 1.7% of the Catholic clergy has been found guilty of pedophilia. 10% of the Protestant ministers have been found guilty of pedophilia. This is not a Catholic Problem.

Uno - Pedophilia is not a disease.
Dos - I'm pretty damn sure it's more of a problem in Catholicism.
Tres - The "attack" on Catholicism is simply calling out a problem. Are you trying to sweep this whole scandal under the rug?

Btw- I agree that it would be better if the Catholics educated less children. Secular schools suck bad enough. Can't imagine how horrible the parochial ones are.

[SSY]

So, in lieu of actually defending your claims, you just pop in to post another link, the type of discourse you engage does not satiate my need for debate.

In addition to which, to back up your claims about awesome the Catholic church is, you post figures, FROM THE CATHOLIC CHURCH?! Really?

I am a nice person, a very nice person in fact, so I will even indulge you this madness, and we can look at the statistics. The National centre for education statistics (whom I am slightly more inclined to believe) say that there are in fact 2.3 million catholic students, not 2.6, as the author of that article claims. So, even moving on from the inflation of figures, we have other issues to address, where is all that stuff about costs? Does not say anything about them? Nothing about grad entry rates, nothing about the colleges (I am also very sceptical of the utility of Christian education programs). So, posting these statistics to back you up, has shown that the only thing it even has a number for contradicts the original claim, and everything else is not mentioned or verified in any way.

Looking at the other statistics you posted, from the "United States Conference of Catholic Bishops", yes, Catholics, the most impartial people to cite when it comes to the merits of the Catholic church, I mean, it's not like they ever hide things or cover them up? Is it? So, let us look at these figures. Once again, it says 2.3 million in Catholic schools, not 2.6 as per the original claim, but moving swiftly on... The college numbers look good, 800,000 in catholic college (even better than the original claim), nothing about costs here either though, hmmm, seems very hard to back up those numbers. Maybe we should try the Hospital stuff? Well, for starters, the original guy said 637 hospitals, not 562, so we have another inflation of numbers there. The patient numbers here are interesting again, the original author claims 62 million, yet these bishops seem to think that 85 million get treated, so the original author, in a fit of modesty no doubt, actually downplayed all the good work the Catholics do, what a guy! So the first sets of stats, did not help you much at all, but the second set seems to portray the catholic church in a much better light, now, let's just check those references, shall we?

1 The Official Catholic Directory 2009, P.J. Kenedy & Sons, New Providence, NJ. 2006
2 Ibid.
3 Ibid.
4 United States Conference of Catholic Bishops â€" Executive 2009
5 Ibid.
6 Ibid.
7 The Official Catholic Directory 2009, P.J. Kenedy & Sons, New Providence, NJ. 2006
8 Ibid.
9 Ibid.
10 Ibid.
11 Ibid.
12 Ibid.
13 Catholic Charties USA 2008 Annual Survey At A Glance

Hmmm, this is very curious, all those statistics, telling us how wonderful the catholic church is, and therefore meaning all the kids those priests fiddled with and then lied about don't matter, seem to be taken from the Catholic church itself, or this thing called lbid. What the fuck is lbid? I have no idea, the catholic church don't seem to want to let on either, very mysterious. Mystery is certainly a fun thing, but not when you are citing statistics to try and excuse molesting children.

So, the first set of impartial statistics don't agree with the original author, and the second set also don't agree, and are completely unverified anyway. In conclusion, I think the original author pulled these statistics from his ass, or at least some very unreliable source, and then you posted some random  statistics you found that pertain to roughly the same thing, but that don't back up his original argument at all.

This is me, unimpressed.

:/

[Davin]

There are 68,115,001 Catholics in the United States1 (22% of the U.S. population),
..........
Catholic Education11
•   Total Catholic elementary and high school enrollment: 2,283,767
•   Elementary Schools: 6,133 schools educating 1,609,387 students
•   High Schools: 1,341 schools educating 674,380 students
•   Colleges and Universities: 234 institutions educating 795,823 students
•   Non-residential Schools for Handicapped Persons: 66 schools educating 6,304 students
•   Public School Students Receiving Religious Education:
o   Elementary School students: 3,080,838
o   High School students: 722,599

Catholic Health Care12
•   Hospitals: 562 Catholic hospitals treated 85,283,351 patients
•   Other Health Care Centers: 373 centers treated 6,703,167 patients
•   Specialized Homes: 1,643 assisted 936,900 residents
•   Residential Care of Children: 403 locations assisted 33,952 residents

Nice statistics... however since most of the people attending private Catholic schools are being paid for by the families, I don't see how this helps with what seemed to be your point that Catholics help out with education. With people paying for the schools, all it makes the Catholic church is a business. However, if your point is that the Catholic church is providing charitable educational services then you need to provide the statistics of how charitable the organization is, not how many people attend places that people pay for themselves. The same goes for health care services. I mean it sure is nice that an organization is willing to something in exchange for money but if you go by that logic, then Safeway, Fry's and Albertsons are probably the most charitable companies because they provide food to millions of people every day.

[elliebean]

What the fuck is lbid?

ibid. definition

An abbreviation for ibidem, a Latin word meaning “in the same place.” It is used in footnotes and bibliographies to refer to a source cited in a previous entry.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ibid

Doesn't seem to help fdesilva's case at all.

[SSY]

Ah! Thank you, learn something new everyday. I was reading it as an L, so google could not help me.

[fdesilva]

One of the primary responsibilities of the us Government is to protect its Children. If there is any threat to its children, by the nature of a single organization, then this would be made evident and action taken.
Given the media focus on the Catholic Church, one would expect that this organization handling of children, would be the subject of government reports. However take the following report by the US government. http://www.canadiancrc.com/PDFs/US_DHHS ... t_2003.pdf
It has no single mention of the Catholic church. This should not come as  surprise as the catholic church is an institute dedicated to taking care of all people, especially children for over 2000 years.

[karadan]

One of the primary responsibilities of the us Government is to protect its Children. If there is any threat to its children, by the nature of a single organization, then this would be made evident and action taken.
Given the media focus on the Catholic Church, one would expect that this organization handling of children, would be the subject of government reports. However take the following report by the US government. http://www.canadiancrc.com/PDFs/US_DHHS ... t_2003.pdf
It has no single mention of the Catholic church. This should not come as  surprise as the catholic church is an institute dedicated to taking care of all people, especially children for over 2000 years.

You are not answering any of the well constructed arguments against what you've posted. You've continued this trend over numerous threads. People are being far to patient with you in my opinion.

[SSY]

One of the primary responsibilities of the us Government is to protect its Children. If there is any threat to its children, by the nature of a single organization, then this would be made evident and action taken.
Given the media focus on the Catholic Church, one would expect that this organization handling of children, would be the subject of government reports. However take the following report by the US government. http://www.canadiancrc.com/PDFs/US_DHHS ... t_2003.pdf
It has no single mention of the Catholic church. This should not come as  surprise as the catholic church is an institute dedicated to taking care of all people, especially children for over 2000 years.

Wow, just let me check something with you. Your argument is, that if catholic abuse of children were such a big problem, that the US government would include it in this specific report? Do you think that this masterful piece of deduction is strong enough to over-rule the claims of the thousands of people who have come forward about their abuse at the hands of the catholic church? Do you concede that the numbers in the first post are not supported or verified and therefore of zero value in this argument?

The thing I like most about this, is that I said "even if the catholic church did a load of good stuff, it would still be in the wrong here", and you then tried to convince me that the catholic church did a load of good stuff, instead of trying to counter my arguments on a logical level, you just posted a load of links to dodgy statistics and no argument.

[fdesilva]

One of the primary responsibilities of the us Government is to protect its Children. If there is any threat to its children, by the nature of a single organization, then this would be made evident and action taken.
Given the media focus on the Catholic Church, one would expect that this organization handling of children, would be the subject of government reports. However take the following report by the US government. http://www.canadiancrc.com/PDFs/US_DHHS ... t_2003.pdf
It has no single mention of the Catholic church. This should not come as  surprise as the catholic church is an institute dedicated to taking care of all people, especially children for over 2000 years.

Wow, just let me check something with you. Your argument is, that if catholic abuse of children were such a big problem, that the US government would include it in this specific report? Do you think that this masterful piece of deduction is strong enough to over-rule the claims of the thousands of people who have come forward about their abuse at the hands of the catholic church? Do you concede that the numbers in the first post are not supported or verified and therefore of zero value in this argument?

The thing I like most about this, is that I said "even if the catholic church did a load of good stuff, it would still be in the wrong here", and you then tried to convince me that the catholic church did a load of good stuff, instead of trying to counter my arguments on a logical level, you just posted a load of links to dodgy statistics and no argument.

Do you concede that the numbers in the first post are not supported or verified and therefore of zero value in this argument?

No for the following reason, if you were to substitute the stats from
http://www.usccb.org/comm/catholic-chur ... tics.shtml

Then the article with regards to its point about the good work done, will still be as meaningful.

With regards to possible inaccuracy of the stats provided by the Church, you can be sure, given the medias anti catholic agenda, it would make headlines like “Catholic bishops give fake statistics”
Given that there has been no such headlines, you can be sure of its accuracy.

"even if the catholic church did a load of good stuff, it would still be in the wrong here",

Most definitely yes. It is in the wrong. However the question is does it teach or have a governance that is conducive for such wrong?

My answer is no, as if it did, the governments in all the different countries would shut it down.

Please note that Catholics are a community of sinners, coming together to try their best to become better.
They are on a journey, some make rapid progress, while others stagnate and even go backwards. So it would not surprise me, if some one told me, the greatest sinners in history were Catholics. It is there to welcome sinners, not to encourage them in sin, but to help them to become better people.