If seeing is believing

[objectivitees]

Just as you have already made up your mind that curio is closed minded simply because he pointed out why it is not a good idea to jump to the conclusion that something is a miracle?

No, curio demonstrated it with a self serving definition that does not do any remote justice to what a "miracle" is usually considered to be. Are you in the habit of answering for others? Why don't you let the person I directed my comments to respond for themselves?

[pinkocommie]

alright well theres no point in me listing miracles that i read in articles or on wiki (who can trust it?) but ive got an older friend of mine who tells me while he was driving he was caught up in a vision, in the vision he is holding onto his girlfriend until Jesus approaches him and begins to gently pull her away and says " Shes set apart for me" My friend is on his knees and looking down, he says " Lord, I am alone" Jesus replies "I will sustain you" and the vision ends and his back in the car. You could say he was only hallucinating but He actually broke up with his girlfriend at that time over it. He's happily married to somebody else now anyway. Ive got another friend of mine who is an evangelist and he spends all his time praying with people and getting guidance from the Holy Spirit. His seen jesus 3 times. finally is the pastor of my church who was in a motorcycle accident when he was 18, He told me he went to heaven and Jesus asked him if he wanted to stay, he told Jesus "no" because he wanted to know him better on earth and actually help some people so he woke up. so yea, ive heard others but i dont personally know the people. As for my story, that was written as soon as i got back home, because i knew i would forget things. You know, i was expecting to meet a lot more opposition than i have, i mean you guys are skeptical, which i would be too, but at least your considering the possibilities. oh and btw, no kookaburra has done that since, so it was a once off.

I know a woman who honestly believes she gets spanked by ghosts while she sleeps.  I don't believe her, I have no reason to believe her, but I think everyone knows someone who has a supernatural story to tell.

[Whitney]

Are you in the habit of answering for others? Why don't you let the person I directed my comments to respond for themselves?[/color]

Aren't we pissy....

[objectivitees]

Are you in the habit of answering for others? Why don't you let the person I directed my comments to respond for themselves?[/color]

Aren't we pissy....

Wow, watch the guy who threatens to ban me call me "pissy"!! Pot and kettles are both back my friend. At least I didn't sink to call you names. ban or no ban, I have my dignity.

[elliebean]

I have my dignity.

Then henceforth you should have little difficulty comporting yourself accordingly.

[hismikeness]

Are you in the habit of answering for others? Why don't you let the person I directed my comments to respond for themselves?[/color]

Aren't we pissy....

Wow, watch the guy who threatens to ban me call me "pissy"!! Pot and kettles are both back my friend. At least I didn't sink to call you names. ban or no ban, I have my dignity.

I don't think I'm inviting you to my birthday party. I don't much like your attitude.

And... I'm pretty confident Whitney is not a dude. Or am I not allowed to answer for that?

Hismikeness

[Sophus]

I think your definition is self-serving.

Ummm... Curio said it was subjective. Subjective....

[LoneMateria]

alright well theres no point in me listing miracles that i read in articles or on wiki (who can trust it?) but ive got an older friend of mine who tells me while he was driving he was caught up in a vision, in the vision he is holding onto his girlfriend until Jesus approaches him and begins to gently pull her away and says " Shes set apart for me" My friend is on his knees and looking down, he says " Lord, I am alone" Jesus replies "I will sustain you" and the vision ends and his back in the car. You could say he was only hallucinating but He actually broke up with his girlfriend at that time over it. He's happily married to somebody else now anyway. Ive got another friend of mine who is an evangelist and he spends all his time praying with people and getting guidance from the Holy Spirit. His seen jesus 3 times. finally is the pastor of my church who was in a motorcycle accident when he was 18, He told me he went to heaven and Jesus asked him if he wanted to stay, he told Jesus "no" because he wanted to know him better on earth and actually help some people so he woke up. so yea, ive heard others but i dont personally know the people. As for my story, that was written as soon as i got back home, because i knew i would forget things. You know, i was expecting to meet a lot more opposition than i have, i mean you guys are skeptical, which i would be too, but at least your considering the possibilities. oh and btw, no kookaburra has done that since, so it was a once off.

So your older friend broke up with his girlfriend because he thinks Jesus told him too ... lmao.  Talk about looking for an excuse to break up with someone.  I wonder what will happen if he has a "vision" saying to divorce his wife ... maybe he will have it after having a fight with her.  Ask him if Jesus was white ... if he says yes it wasn't Jesus Google etiquette and refresh yourself.  If the Admin or Mods are hinting to your to stop being pissy (in a way you can probably understand it)... then the following is probably one of the worst things to say:

Wow, watch the guy who threatens to ban me call me "pissy"!! Pot and kettles are both back my friend. At least I didn't sink to call you names. ban or no ban, I have my dignity.

You are acting like a 5 year old.  If this is all the dignity you have then I honestly feel sorry for you.

[Squid]

Are you in the habit of answering for others? Why don't you let the person I directed my comments to respond for themselves?[/color]

Aren't we pissy....

Wow, watch the guy who threatens to ban me call me "pissy"!! Pot and kettles are both back my friend. At least I didn't sink to call you names. ban or no ban, I have my dignity.

Calm down, have some dip...

1) Whitney is not a guy.  2) This is her forum and she can ban whomever she pleases for whatever reason she sees fit.  And finally, we're all reading text (obviously) and therefore it can be difficult to discern the tone of a person's post which may or may not have been the original intent of the poster.  If you are called pissy and that wasn't your intended tone of the post, just clarify in a reply - emotiocons can assist.  In sum, chill - as one of the sages of the webs once said, "Dude, it's just the internet".

[plinkoblinko]

chill

I agree, geez I leave for a day and miss all the fun!  

When you assert made up answers to problems you stop the process of learning.

I might not of clarified myself and I'm too lazy to go back and check. But I'm talking about problems that give no answers (i.e. the topic, miracles and such).

Thats a nice assertion do you have any evidence to back this up?

Do you really think that everything just stops? Everything that exists starts somewhere, Philosophy lesson: How many times can you cut a block of metal in half until its gone? Draw a square on a piece of paper...any size.. whatever. Now how much space is inside that square? (Please, don't even think about getting a ruler out!)We could put a 3 and 4 on each side and say, oh wait it's area is 12. But if we change the numbers to say 5 and 5...its now 25. So the area of that square, that physically hasn't changed, is 12 and 25? Put in any numbers you want to, we would have to logically say there is an infinite amount of space correct? And that includes perspective as well.

... but what of the letters, how is it that we can just understand those?

Do you not recall preschool and kindergarten?

You completely missed my point, but I admit that was a bad example. Read above.

Aside from the fact that quite a few of the atheist members here were Christians at some point in their lives (some of us were actually really involved with our churches); why wouldn't God want to reveal himself to people without them first reaching out into the dark grasping for something...Jesus helped to ease Thomas' doubts; right?

God did not and cannot reveal himself. You answered your own question, Jesus [/u] revealed himself to Thomas. I know, I know, But Jesus is God according to some Christians!, I don't think we want to get into another topic about the Trinity or whatnot here.

List three "miracles" of the 20th or 21st century.

I started reading all that bird stuff and I'm not gonna lie I got bored.
Miracles, in my opinion, are def. not like some that were mentioned (Jesus telling to break up with gf, etc.) That is a nice idea.. but really?...it just doesn't work like that. I believe that there are personal miracles (that some call coincidence) but it's honestly in the eye of the beholder.
I'm thinking more along the lines of the Shroud of Turin, Mary appearing in Fatima, big stuff that really can't be explained...

Atoms have their limitations as well.

Where did you find this?

What makes you think the cycle is infinite, and what makes you think a god stops the cycle of infinite regress? We know that everything starts simple and then gets complex over time. A being able to create the universe would have to be complex by definition. So where does your god come from and why does he stop the cycle of infinite regress? And how is it more honest to say a god does that instead of, "I don't know"?

You can't prove that God does or does not exist.

This is where it gets fun. I've been thinking about this.
Neither Christians nor Atheists can prove that God doesn't/does exist. That is the disagreement, we've said it a dozen times.
This is where my idea of infinity and existence come into play. (I'm referring to space and time right now) Who said that God necessarily stops the cycle of infinite regress? That might be true...but I honestly don't think that God stops anything, it simply is just infinite (simple infinite...hmm), it's just going to keep going and going and we are going to keep discovering that: this makes this which in turn makes this, and this is made up of these, and so forth. But we are able to do things that break this rule..somehow...how close can I get to touching water without actually touching it? According to my logic, the is an infinite amount of space between the end of my index finger and the surface of the water...But...it happens. Why is that? Why would a bunch of random evolutionary changes give only ONE species on this planet the ability to love, laugh, have an innate moral code, and comprehend it's own existence, etc.?

So basically an atheist argument we are getting closer to discovering that God doesn't exist is invalid, because there are an infinite things left to discover. But that should apply also to the theists saying that we are getting closer to proving that God exists ...right? The difference is that a Theists "proof" cannot be proved... Ha kind of ironic...it seems two sides are just in a big pickle. So maybe we've got all this junk to think about, is it simply about choice?

But I'm going to go on a whim and say this. God doesn't exist in the same exact way that we don't understand the meaning of existence. It was said a couple times that "matter proves existence", God isn't matter, we are matter, God is infinite right? He is then above our thinking and above our existence.

[Sophus]

Where did you find this?

Fermions and the tachyon.

[dionysiou]

im sorry my stories bore you , its funny that you mention hindus because a good friend of mine is an indian hindu and he believes the same as i do. they have different names but in essence he believes in God and Jesus. Anyway if you knew the christian beliefs then you would know that Satan can come as a messenger of light to spread more confusion. ultimately though, theres no point debating bout any of this, cause at the end of the day its YOUR LIFE. How do you feel about your life and how sure are you about your beliefs or lack thereof? If you feel as if your leading a fulfilled and happy life then im truly happy for you. If not then i suggest giving God a real go, if you know that you already have and God failed you then you have nothing to worry about. As for these questions

a) How many miracles (as interpreted by you) would it take for you to stop believing in your current choice of god if they could all be attributed to natural phenomenons. i attribute natural phenomenon to God brother.
b) How many miracles (as interpreted by you) would it take for you to start believing in Ra (or any other deity)
God isnt the only one who can work miracles, so other miracles would be up for discerning.
c) If a muslim believer told the same Kookaburra-story in this forum, would you expect people to take that as proof for the undeniable existence of Allah?
Definitely not, you have to discover things for yourself, i just share my experiences for some incentive to do so.

[Dretlin]

im sorry my stories bore you , its funny that you mention hindus because a good friend of mine is an indian hindu and he believes the same as i do. they have different names but in essence he believes in God and Jesus. Anyway if you knew the christian beliefs then you would know that Satan can come as a messenger of light to spread more confusion. ultimately though, theres no point debating bout any of this, cause at the end of the day its YOUR LIFE. How do you feel about your life and how sure are you about your beliefs or lack thereof? If you feel as if your leading a fulfilled and happy life then im truly happy for you. If not then i suggest giving God a real go, if you know that you already have and God failed you then you have nothing to worry about. As for these questions

You believe in medieval propaganda? Do you honestly believe in a being such as Satan or as a metaphor for escaping responsibility for your own actions?

I do recall this recent article.

Satan is brilliant for avoiding your responsibility to sincerity and the well fare of humans!

[G-Roll]

“In much the same way as prophets and seers and great theologians seemed to have died out, so the age of miracles seems to lie somewhere in our past. If the religious were wise, or had the confidence of their convictions, they might to welcome the eclipse of this age of fraud and conjuring. But faith, yet again, discredits itself by proving to be insufficient to satisfy the faithful. Actual events are still required to impress the credulous. We have no difficulty in seeing this when we study the witch doctor and magicians and soothsayers of earlier or more remote cultures. “
To quote Christopher Hitchens on miracles.

[plinkoblinko]

Fermions and the tachyon.

Thanks Sophus, interesting stuff..I'm gonna read up on this.