Theology

[notself]

"Dagda"
Interesting use of the feminine pronoun especially seeing as I have declared God in the masculine anytime I have posted on this forum. This is more because of traditional prejudices and my own imposition of myself on God (I am male therefore God is He). Although I would probably count as a feminist theologian, the habits of centuries are hard to break.

Just how old are you that you have habits of centuries.     I find that most theist have trouble with a feminine pronoun.  That's why I used it.

I think my definition of God can be found above, but as for my definition of mind I simply do not know.

If you cannot define mind then how do you know it exists? What makes it different than a functioning brain?
I must have missed your definition of god.  Would you please repeat your definition and include a list of her attributes?

I suppose I gain rather a lot from God, but am not arrogant enough to believe what I gain from God really plays a major part in any deities day. What do you gain from atheism?

What do you gain from believing in a god?

As an atheist, I am free to examine all phenomena without having the baggage of a deity who needs to be paid attention to. I don't need to satisfy the needs of a needy god.

[Dagda]

I find that most theist have trouble with a feminine pronoun.  That's why I used it.

Pity, I thought I had found another soul who believes in redressing the balance in the language of power in regards to the oppression of the feminine.

If you cannot define mind then how do you know it exists? What makes it different than a functioning brain?
I must have missed your definition of god. Would you please repeat your definition and include a list of her attributes?

I know gravity exists, but I cannot define what it is, just what it does.

I suppose I gain rather a lot from God, but am not arrogant enough to believe what I gain from God really plays a major part in any deities day. What do you gain from atheism?

What do you gain from believing in a god?

As an atheist, I am free to examine all phenomena without having the baggage of a deity who needs to be paid attention to. I don't need to satisfy the needs of a needy god.

Ah so you wish to raise yourself up to the objective platform which you think God occupies? To make room for yourself, however, you must kill God.



I suspect that you are trying to hold up a mirror to my faith and show me that my faith is grounded in my own fears and superstitions. As I am an avid reader of Nietzsche and Marx, I have already evaluated my faith in light of this revelation and am happy to admit that my belief in God is personal  (it gives me a sense of peace that I would not achieve otherwise). I do not think anyone would be convinced or interested in my own reasons for belief, and as such I attempt to keep silent on the issue.

[notself]

"Dagda"   Pity, I thought I had found another soul who believes in redressing the balance in the language of power in regards to the oppression of the feminine.

I also use it for that purpose but most Christians I try it with object.  One even told me that their god had to be male because Jesus referred to "my father in heaven"

I know gravity exists, but I cannot define what it is, just what it does.

Everyone can see the effects of gravity.  Gravity can be measured by instruments.  None of this is possible with your invisible being. A double blind study of intercessory prayer indicates there is no one listening. http://www.ahjonline.com/article/PIIS00 ... t1=no&vol=

Ah so you wish to raise yourself up to the objective platform which you think God occupies? To make room for yourself, however, you must kill God.

You can't kill what doesn't exist.

I ... am happy to admit that my belief in God is personal  (it gives me a sense of peace that I would not achieve otherwise). I do not think anyone would be convinced or interested in my own reasons for belief, and as such I attempt to keep silent on the issue.

Don't be shy.  I am very interested in knowing why you believe in your god.  What does she do for you?  You can find peace without believing in any god.  I am at peace even though I have a diagnosis of stage 2 breast cancer with a high risk of recurrence.  I belong to a breast cancer forum where the dear Christian women pray and pray and pray.  It has absolutely no affect on anyone's outcome, but as you say it gives them comfort.

Is the only reason you believe in her is that you need comfort?  What does she demand of you in exchange for this comfort?

[idiotsavant]

Precognition/prediction is the result of taking in various bits and pieces of information, subconsciously organizing the data and coming up with a probability (a hunch).

The Bene Gesserit of Frank Herbert’s Dune perfected the art of observation / extrapolation, but I find this explanation unsatisfactory.  I know things I couldn’t know, like the time I wanted to turn left, but Holy Spirit told me to go straight.  He must have known the out of control semi-trailer would careen into that left hand turn lane.  Or when I know specific personal information about someone I just met...

Peace I/s

[notself]

Precognition/prediction is the result of taking in various bits and pieces of information, subconsciously organizing the data and coming up with a probability (a hunch).

The Bene Gesserit of Frank Herbert’s Dune perfected the art of observation / extrapolation, but I find this explanation unsatisfactory.  I know things I couldn’t know, like the time I wanted to turn left, but Holy Spirit told me to go straight.  He must have known the out of control semi-trailer would careen into that left hand turn lane.  Or when I know specific personal information about someone I just met...

Peace I/s

You could have been perfectly observing the speed of the semi as it was approaching the intersection and observed that there was a high probability that the driver would lose control.  No magical spirit involved.

[idiotsavant]

You could have been perfectly observing the speed of the semi as it was approaching the intersection and observed that there was a high probability that the driver would lose control.  No magical spirit involved.

Maybe you’re right, maybe I did have enough info to extrapolate the danger, but I doubt it.  The truck’s image was in my rear view mirror for over twenty miles.  He kept his distance, and I never saw him swerve.  I paid him no mind at the traffic light, until he bounced over the median into the left hand lane, stopping where my car would have sat...

And then there’s the knowing personal things about strangers...   (And vise versa)

Peace - I/s

[notself]

Just keep observing your observations.  You can develop the sharpness and quickness of your already great ability this way.  If you automatically think it's a "spirit", then this belief will prevent you from sharpening your senses.

I think the thing I find saddest about believing in all powerful deities is that belief interferes with one's ability to appreciate the complexity and power of one's own brain.

May all our future precognitions be joyful ones.

[Dagda]

Everyone can see the effects of gravity.  Gravity can be measured by instruments.  None of this is possible with your invisible being. A double blind study of intercessory prayer indicates there is no one listening. http://www.ahjonline.com/article/PIIS00 ... t1=no&vol=

Now I can only get into the abstract so can’t say with any certainty, but if it is the study I am thinking of then it had a few problems. First off it did not seem to state what it had defined as its average percentage mark (the expected rate of complications without the effect of prayer). Also, what prayer was used, for how long and were any steps taken to ensure that the prayers were conducted correctly? There is also the problem of this being only one study among several. When considering the effects of distant healing it is important to have access to hundreds of studies conducted by dozens of independent researchers over a broad period of time and in different locations. This example is intriguing, but is a one off-where is the meta-analysis? For instance, I could quote the 1988 Byrd case which shows the exact opposite of this study, but again this is a one off. If you are basing your assumption that distant mental healing does not work on one study, then that is bad science.  

What does God give me? Well I believe God’s will is in all things, but all things are not the will of God. God is that little voice most people call their conscious. He gives me the strength to carry on fighting for what I believe in. That is what I get from God. What does God get in return? What does a parent get in return for loving and caring for their child?

[Dagda]

Out of interest what would you define as the Enlightened state?

[notself]

Out of interest what would you define as the Enlightened state?

The word enlightenment was chosen by the earliest Western translators of the Pali texts. They thought the word would tie Buddhism to the Enlightenment Period of 18th Century philosophers.  The correct definition of the word is "awake".  The title Buddha comes from the word budh which means awake or to know.  "The Buddha" means one who is awake [to how things actually are].

The state of budh "enlightenment" is a state of understanding.

[notself]

Here is the wording of the study on intercessory prayer as published by the American Heart Association.  The study was funded in part by the John Templeton Foundation and included the hospitals and medical organizations listed below.  The type of intercessory prayer was the same for all groups. The study was published in January 2005.

Abstract
Background: Intercessory prayer is widely believed to influence recovery from illness, but claims of benefits are not supported by well-controlled clinical trials. Prior studies have not addressed whether prayer itself or knowledge/certainty that prayer is being provided may influence outcome. We evaluated whether (1) receiving intercessory prayer or (2) being certain of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with uncomplicated recovery after coronary artery bypass graft (CABG) surgery.

Methods: Patients at 6 US hospitals were randomly assigned to 1 of 3 groups: 604 received intercessory prayer after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; 597 did not receive intercessory prayer also after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; and 601 received intercessory prayer after being informed they would receive prayer. Intercessory prayer was provided for 14 days, starting the night before CABG. The primary outcome was presence of any complication within 30 days of CABG. Secondary outcomes were any major event and mortality.

Results: In the 2 groups uncertain about receiving intercessory prayer, complications occurred in 52% (315/604) of patients who received intercessory prayer versus 51% (304/597) of those who did not (relative risk 1.02, 95% CI 0.92-1.15). Complications occurred in 59% (352/601) of patients certain of receiving intercessory prayer compared with the 52% (315/604) of those uncertain of receiving intercessory prayer (relative risk 1.14, 95% CI 1.02-1.28). Major events and 30-day mortality were similar across the 3 groups.

Conclusions: Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.

a Mind/Body Medical Institute and the Department of Medicine, Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA  b Oklahoma Heart Institute, Integris Baptist Medical Center, Oklahoma City, OK  c Pastoral Care, Integris Baptist Medical Center, Oklahoma City, OK d CareGroup, Department of Surgery, Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA e Section of Cardiac Surgery, Washington Hospital Center, Washington, DC f Pastoral Care, Washington Hospital Center, Washington, DC g Baptist Memorial Health Care Corporation, Memphis, TN h Pastoral Care, Memphis, TN i Mayo Physician Alliance for Clinical Trials, Mayo Clinic Rochester, Rochester, MN j Department of Internal Medicine, Mayo Clinic Rochester, Rochester, MN k Chaplain Services, Mayo Clinic Rochester, Rochester, MN

This study was supported by the John Templeton Foundation. The Baptist Memorial Health Care Corporation supported the Baptist Memorial Health Care Corporation site only.

[idiotsavant]

Just keep observing your observations.  You can develop the sharpness and quickness of your already great ability this way.  If you automatically think it's a "spirit", then this belief will prevent you from sharpening your senses.

I think the thing I find saddest about believing in all powerful deities is that belief interferes with one's ability to appreciate the complexity and power of one's own brain.

May all our future precognitions be joyful ones.

You think me the Kwisatz Haderach!  Kool!

Tell me, how do I know things I can’t?  I once told a couple I had just met that their son would be exonerated of all charges.  (I didn’t know the meaning of exonerated)  â€œHow did you know we had a son; and that he was accused of a crime?" they asked.  How should I have answered?  (Let me guess: Even though I don’t do local news, I somehow knew that the woman’s son (father’s stepson with a different last name) was in court.  I also had enough subliminal information on the case to determine the outcome.  Wow!  I am the  Kwisatz Haderach!)

And then there was Mrs.W.  When I arrived at her home to bid a remodel job, I found her hopping around the kitchen on one foot.  She had stepped in a hole in her yard and wrenched her knee .  â€œSorry, my husband is coming home now to take me to the hospital, we must reschedule.”  I suggested we pray to the (imaginary?) God.  She felt warmth in the knee, and it was instantly healed.  The power of mind over matter?  (I got the job...)

Peace - I/s

[notself]

Tell me, how do I know things I can’t?  I once told a couple I had just met that their son would be exonerated of all charges.  (I didn’t know the meaning of exonerated)  â€œHow did you know we had a son; and that he was accused of a crime?" they asked.  How should I have answered?  (Let me guess: Even though I don’t do local news, I somehow knew that the woman’s son (father’s stepson with a different last name) was in court.  I also had enough subliminal information on the case to determine the outcome.  Wow!  I am the  Kwisatz Haderach!)

And then there was Mrs.W.  When I arrived at her home to bid a remodel job, I found her hopping around the kitchen on one foot.  She had stepped in a hole in her yard and wrenched her knee .  â€œSorry, my husband is coming home now to take me to the hospital, we must reschedule.”  I suggested we pray to the (imaginary?) God.  She felt warmth in the knee, and it was instantly healed.  The power of mind over matter?  (I got the job...)
Peace - I/s

You processed information from overheard but forgotten conversations.  You are in contracting and talk to people all day long.  My sister and her husband are contractors, never watch the news or read the newspaper.  They know everything that is going on in town.  It is almost impossible to not "do" local news. You do not have to have a god or holy spirit whispering in your ear.
 
As for your prayer, the placebo affect explains that along with the fact that the pain passed due to her sitting down and thinking of something else (you and your prayer).  Try analyzing your experiences and look for explanations that that are reasonable but do not include magical thinking.

[idiotsavant]

Try analyzing your experiences and look for explanations that that are reasonable but do not include magical thinking.

I play the markets.  Information, reason, logic and extrapolation are my close companions.  I can see your logic train makes sense, but you lack information.  i.e. In the Chicago suburbs “local” was any town within 45 minutes drive.  Not only was this couple on the edge of local, but their son was to be tried in Chicago, another 45 minutes away.  The petty crime would not have made our area news at all.  (I like national and world news anyway.)  We had no mutual friends, just my business card picked up at a supply house...  The odds I had any info on this is pretty slim.

But still plausible.  And if  I add that over the last 40 years I have seen and experienced similar incidents hundreds of times; and point out that my ability to extrapolate from information I have with friends and acquaintances doesn’t explain how this happens with strangers in far away places like Canada and Scotland; I believe you will still be able to offer a “non magical” explanation...

Peace - I/s

P.S. My ruptured disk has been placebo-ized for over 27 years now...

[Whitney]

or...you just got lucky.

It would be more interesting if I actually knew you and you were able to do things like that constantly to people with no other explanation than psychic.