The existence of God.

[Tyler]

Well, i'm here for a school project to prove the existence of God.
I myself am a believer and believe in the existence of God.
So what do you think on the existence of God. How do you counter the Transcendental, cosmological, and others?

Transcendental
This argument states that without God there is no reason or moral. Where would morals come from if there was no God? They are engraved into our minds and couldn’t have been set by someone. Only by a greater power, like God, could things like morals come about. Take for example the moral you know that it’s wrong to kill, and do bad things. These have been set as wrong from the very beginning. The deference between good and evil couldn’t have been set by people. It had to be set by a higher force such as God. The only reason you can tell right and wrong is because God set that straight in our minds.

Cosmological
Every effect has a cause.
Universe is an effect.
Ultimate cause is God.
By using the transcendental property just like in math, it shows that the universe has to have a cause. Most may say its evolution with the big bang and such and such but how can everything just have happened by chance. If the earth was a little bit farther from the sun we would freeze and if we were a little bit closer we would burn up. How could that have just happened by chance? The possibility is extremely slim. I mean really small. Only a higher intelligence could have made this possible. Also humans. Why can't they find the missing link? How can this be? Also everything has been perfectly set up for life. It’s impossible for something to just make life out of nothing and change so much just from a single one-celled organisms? Yes there is intelligent design where things change over time. That's enough for that point.

Another Point
Another thing is that there is no point to not believe in God, what is the downside? As an ancient philosopher pointed out if you don’t believe there is nothing after life. If you believe God doesn’t exist then there is nothing after life? So why not believe in God because there is something after death. Why wouldn’t you take the chance of believing in God? There is no downside to believing in him anyway.

[LoneMateria]

Hi Tyler.  Welcome to HAF.

You probably won't get many responses because the arguments you've put forward have been beaten to death and can be killed by a simple search.  You probably aren't aware of this when you posted here.  So let me post 3 links that refute your claims.

1: Transcendental Argument (also known as TAG)
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Transcendental_argument

2: Cosmological (or First Cause argument)
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Cosmological_argument

3: Pascal's Wager:
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Pascal's_Wager

If you want to actually discuss these let me know and I'd be happy to go into detail with you.  Like I said though these arguments have been beat over and over again and many of us have little interest in re-hashing them because the conversations typically go no where.  However I will if you would like ^_^

[Ellainix]

Transcendental

Morals come from logic. For example, I choose not to kill everyone because I will be judged and punished by society. Your argument assumes that morality is somehow divine and not a matter of personal opinion. In the case of Christianity, it's a set of personal opinions forced on everyone in the group.

Cosmological

Why does the universe need a first cause and god does not need a first cause? Who created god? Have you ever considered that compared to the entirety of the universe, the "Big Bang" might actually be a really small event?

Evolution vs. Creationism is a controversial subject for the general public. Are you aware that Biologists almost universally accept evolution as fact?

Another Point

You don't need to believe in God to believe in a happy afterlife.
Why would you want to go to the heaven of the Christian God? You will do nothing but worship a glorified, genocidal prick for eternity.

[Regens Küchl]

Well, i'm here for a school project to prove the existence of God.
I myself am a believer and believe in the existence of God.
So what do you think on the existence of God. How do you counter the Transcendental, cosmological, and others?

Is it the same schoolproject katiebam is on and do you two know each other?
[/quote]
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4545

Transcendental
This argument states that without God there is no reason or moral. Where would morals come from if there was no God? They are engraved into our minds and couldn’t have been set by someone. Only by a greater power, like God, could things like morals come about. Take for example the moral you know that it’s wrong to kill, and do bad things. These have been set as wrong from the very beginning. The deference between good and evil couldn’t have been set by people. It had to be set by a higher force such as God. The only reason you can tell right and wrong is because God set that straight in our minds.

Already refuted
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... gical.html

Another Point
Another thing is that there is no point to not believe in God, what is the downside? As an ancient philosopher pointed out if you don’t believe there is nothing after life. If you believe God doesn’t exist then there is nothing after life? So why not believe in God because there is something after death. Why wouldn’t you take the chance of believing in God? There is no downside to believing in him anyway.

Already refuted
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... wager.html

[elliebean]

Morals come from logic. For example, I choose not to kill everyone because I will be judged and punished by society.

Somewhat off-topic, but I disagree with this statement for the most part. Fear of punishment may be the only reason for some people, but it isn't for me. I think morals come mostly from empathy, which comes partly from social conditioning, such as good parenting, and partly from interaction with others.

[Tyler]

Thank you all for responding.

Morals come from logic. For example, I choose not to kill everyone because I will be judged and punished by society. Your argument assumes that morality is somehow divine and not a matter of personal opinion. In the case of Christianity, it's a set of personal opinions forced on everyone in the group.

You say that I am assuming that morals come from God, but you are assuming that there is God. How can you argue what I call an assumption with an assumption of your own? And you are also assuming that that Christianity’s opinions are forced upon everyone in that group. How would you know? That is an assumption. You are not a Christian, I presume, so you couldn’t know. I don’t feel like I’m forced to have certain options. You don't have to believe the exact same thing as every Christian. The only thing that is necessary to believe to gain salvation is to believe in God the father and believe in his son that came and died for our sins. So I don't believe you are right.

Why does the universe need a first cause and god does not need a first cause? Who created god? Have you ever considered that compared to the entirety of the universe, the "Big Bang" might actually be a really small event?

Every effect has a cause that is a simple matter of science, even you must know that. We can't begin to understand God; he has always been there and always will. Even I can't comprehend that, but it doesn’t lesser my faith. What started the whole entire universe then?

Also evolution is true where is the missing link? Why hasn't it been found?

Is it the same school project katiebam is on and do you two know each other?

Yes it is and we know each other.  And yes our Ip’s were matches because we are using the same computer lab.

[Tyler]

Thank you all for responding.

Morals come from logic. For example, I choose not to kill everyone because I will be judged and punished by society. Your argument assumes that morality is somehow divine and not a matter of personal opinion. In the case of Christianity, it's a set of personal opinions forced on everyone in the group.

You say that I am assuming that morals come from God, but you are assuming that there is God. How can you argue what I call an assumption with an assumption of your own? And you are also assuming that that Christianity’s opinions are forced upon everyone in that group. How would you know? That is an assumption. You are not a Christian, I presume, so you couldn’t know. I don’t feel like I’m forced to have certain options. You don't have to believe the exact same thing as every Christian. The only thing that is necessary to believe to gain salvation is to believe in God the father and believe in his son that came and died for our sins. So I don't believe you are right.

Why does the universe need a first cause and god does not need a first cause? Who created god? Have you ever considered that compared to the entirety of the universe, the "Big Bang" might actually be a really small event?

Every effect has a cause that is a simple matter of science, even you must know that. We can't begin to understand God; he has always been there and always will. Even I can't comprehend that, but it doesn’t lesser my faith. What started the whole entire universe then?

Also evolution is true where is the missing link? Why hasn't it been found?

Is it the same school project katiebam is on and do you two know each other?

Yes it is and we know each other.  And yes our Ip’s were matches because we are using the same computer lab.
I looked through all the links and I don’t believe they are true. I also used those arguments because that’s what my class requires of me.

On another note, what about the Bible, how can that entire book be false? The history of the times even match up with it. What do you think about the Bible?

[Regens Küchl]

Double post

:hissyfit:
GOTCHA

[Ellainix]

Thank you all for responding.
You say that I am assuming that morals come from God, but you are assuming that there is God.

I never assume that there is God.

How can you argue what I call an assumption with an assumption of your own? And you are also assuming that that Christianity’s opinions are forced upon everyone in that group. How would you know? That is an assumption. You are not a Christian, I presume, so you couldn’t know. I don’t feel like I’m forced to have certain options. You don't have to believe the exact same thing as every Christian. The only thing that is necessary to believe to gain salvation is to believe in God the father and believe in his son that came and died for our sins. So I don't believe you are right.

Dead wrong. I've spent the first 16 years of my life in the South. My friends have told me their horror stories. I know exactly what Christians are, what they believe, and what they do. Asking Jesus to climb inside your heart sounds simple and easy, but that's never where the path ends.

Every effect has a cause that is a simple matter of science, even you must know that. We can't begin to understand God; he has always been there and always will. Even I can't comprehend that, but it doesn’t lesser my faith. What started the whole entire universe then?

Since when did the universe start? It has always been here.

Also evolution is true where is the missing link? Why hasn't it been found?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transition ... eationists

[notself]

Hi, Tyler,
I assume that since your are a Christian, you believe in a perfect god.  Then explain why this god has desire to create, condemn, to be worshipped, etc.

A perfect entity has no needs or desires.  It is in equilibrium or stasis. It would take something from the outside to cause it to change, i.e. take action.  Therefore: god would need a god to give it a nudge.  Since this first perfect (stable) god would need a nudge, it indicates that the nudging god was not perfect since it could act.  Or in the alternative the nudging god was perfect (stable) until it received a nudge from yet another non perfect or a nudged, perfect god.......     If, for the sake of argument, there is a god and that this god is a perfect being, then why did this state of perfection want anything? Why did this state of perfection want to create imperfect beings? Why did this state of perfection feel the need to be worshipped by imperfect beings of its own creation? Why did this state of perfection have the need to kill these imperfect beings for being imperfect in their actions and beliefs?

The whole god thingy falls apart when these questions are asked. At most the god botherers say that their god is beyond human comprehension. Well, if god is beyond human comprehension, then why do they even bother to think about it?

[elliebean]

Tyler is.... .... no longer with us.

[Whitney]

Tyler is....

[Byronazriel]

Every effect has a cause.
Universe is an effect.
Ultimate cause is God.

I always thought of it as being the opposite.  The Universe is the cause, and gods are the effect.

[Parsifal]

Also evolution is true where is the missing link? Why hasn't it been found?

You would do well to read a little wider on the topic of evolution.  Like Richard Dawkins says:

Missing link?  What do you mean missing?

Missing links have been found, but they are not really crucial anymore, as DNA and genes prove evolution far better than fossils and "missing links" can ever do.

[Asmodean]

Another troll missed...