Theology

[Dagda]

Here it is as requested.

I cannot speak for the rest of the Christian faith, but I will put forward my own theological theory. God is Love. However, He also wishes to be loved in return, and this presents a problem. Without free will the human race cannot love God freely, and when someone is forced to love it becomes, at most, a kind of lust or adoration. As such God gave us free will in the hope that He would be loved in return, however we used that free will to turn away from God (see Genesis chapter 3-4). In this we became imperfect and so could no-longer directly experience God (this is the metaphor of the Garden of Eden). At this point you may point out that only Adam and Eve sinned so why should we all be punished. Well the answer is simple; two bad apples infected the lot. Like a pitcher of water when a dot of ink is added, the imperfections of Adam and Eve quickly spread.

However, God does not give up and has, at various stages, handed down/inspired various religious texts to help humanity unite with the God-head once more-this is why most mystical texts have the same underlying message; they came from the same source.

To answer your question about allegory, it is quite simple. The Gospel of Thomas put it well: when Thomas was asked to divulge the secret teachings of Christ ‘Thomas replied, ‘If I tell you what he said you’ll pick up stones and hurl them at me’. It is easy to forget that not so long ago saying the wrong thing could quickly lead to death (see stoning of James the Just, the execution of Cathars etc). The reason texts such as these are written in metaphor and allegory is that when the Inquisition came knocking you could appear more innocent and orthodox than you otherwise would appear.

Most mystical traditions (Cabbalists, Greek Mystery Schools, Indian mystics etc) seem to indicate that the information contained in these allegories could be dangerous in the wrong hands. To use your own example Elisha killed a number of children for calling him bald (the concept of God and His actions in the world would require another few paragraphs, but it is more the power of God rather than God Himself who killed those children) is an anecdote. It may have been true or false, but that is not the point. What it is saying is that those who received that secret information (Elisha) can do great damage (killing children etc). This is yet another reason that this mystical information is conveyed in allegories-it prevents the information falling into the wrong hands.

Obviously the major problem of conveying any information in symbolism is that it is very difficult to interpret (kind of the point), and this the reason for the constant re-interpretation. Hope this enlightened you as to my beliefs concerning metaphor in the Bible.

[SSY]

Question; Is your god all knowing?

[Typist]

Thanks Dagda, appreciate it.    I should start by saying I don't claim to know if there is a God, or what he/she/it might be.   For some reason, the speculation is interesting to me, that's all.  So, on to speculating....

I cannot speak for the rest of the Christian faith, but I will put forward my own theological theory. God is Love.

Which brings us immediately to the question, what is love?   Perhaps we assume we know, without really giving it much thought?   Both theists and atheists claim to be working towards a better world, ie. more love etc.   So what is it exactly that we are all reaching for?

However, He also wishes to be loved in return, and this presents a problem.

Well, yea, honestly, that concept has always presented a problem for me.   Hmm...   If we are parents, we might try to recall our most selfless loving moment with our kids.  Now multiply how we felt in those moments by one billion, to make ourselves a God.  

Are we concerned with our kids loving us back in such a situation?   Or is it instead all about us serving them?

As such God gave us free will in the hope that He would be loved in return, however we used that free will to turn away from God (see Genesis chapter 3-4). In this we became imperfect and so could no-longer directly experience God (this is the metaphor of the Garden of Eden).

We could, if we wished, translate the theology you've stated in to a more modern "religion" as follows.

Evolution gave humans thought as the tool we would use to survive in our environment.   Other critters got wings, fins, big teeth, etc.  We got thought.

Thought is the ability to create and manipulate abstract symbols that represent reality.   We have the word "apple" inside our mind to represent the real world apple we can eat.

Our mind creates symbols by conceptually dividing reality.   We look out over our environment, and divide it conceptually in to tree, leaves, bark, soil, sky, water, animals, plants, air etc.  Words, the foundation of language and thought, are a dividing process.  

This symbol creating process is very useful for survival, but it introduces an illusion of division, when in fact reality is all one big thing.   Example, sunlight from 93 million miles away is an intimate crucial part of our daily life.   In a very real way, it is inaccurate to say the Sun is one thing, and we are another.

The most problematic division illusion that is created is the illusion of "me", an internal conceptual identity that is experienced as being separate from everything else in the universe.  

And thus, we don't usually don't experience "the Garden Of Eden", ie. the real world, where everything is unified.   Instead, thanks to our immersion in thought, we usually experience a cardboard mirror version of the real world, where we feel very separate and alone.  

And so, we go looking for saviors...

What is love?   Death.  

Death of this pervasive sense of division, of aloneness.

And now, we will turn to page 34 of our hymnal, and sing the Beavis and Butthead theme song together, while we pass the plate.  

At this point you may point out that only Adam and Eve sinned so why should we all be punished.

Adam and Eve didn't sin, they simply accepted the method of survival nature had handed them.  They bit the apple of thought.  Or, perhaps it's more accurate to say, the apple of thought bit them.  

However, God does not give up and has, at various stages, handed down/inspired various religious texts to help humanity unite with the God-head once more-this is why most mystical texts have the same underlying message; they came from the same source.

Personally, in my Ignorance Religion, I don't feel God would be obsessed with religion.  I see him as a more practical kinda guy.   In this view, he would use religion to communicate with those who are tuned to that channel.   Imho, the same basic messages can be communicated in different language for those tuned to other channels.   And that message would be....

You are not alone.  You just feel alone.  Because of the way you are made.  It's not your fault.  Don't sweat it.   Don't worry, we'll fix it in time, 100% guaranteed.

Oh my, Reverend Blowhard has been generous enough with his bloviations this Sunday morning...

Thanks for your thought provoking post Dagda.

[G-Roll]

Most mystical traditions (Cabbalists, Greek Mystery Schools, Indian mystics etc) seem to indicate that the information contained in these allegories could be dangerous in the wrong hands. To use your own example Elisha killed a number of children for calling him bald (the concept of God and His actions in the world would require another few paragraphs, but it is more the power of God rather than God Himself who killed those children) is an anecdote. It may have been true or false, but that is not the point.

WHAT?
"To use your own example Elisha killed a number of children for calling him bald (the concept of God and His actions in the world would require another few paragraphs, but it is more the power of God rather than God Himself who killed those children) is an anecdote. It may have been true or false, but that is not the point."

so it doesnt bother you that "god is love" but god kills 42 kids with 2 bears. or maybe the power of god is love.. kinda like the idea of a suicide bomber is love.

It may have been true or false, but that is not the point. What it is saying is that those who received that secret information (Elisha) can do great damage (killing children etc). This is yet another reason that this mystical information is conveyed in allegories-it prevents the information falling into the wrong hands.

so if i go to church every day for the rest of my life i can perhaps receive the secret info and become a sorcerer... a dungeons and dragons character... and take over the world with my super powers.
but if god is intelligent and as... wonderful as he is made out to be... how is it possible for this important info to fall into the wrong hands. it has to be left to mere human "poets" that make their words sound like utter nonsense to confuse everyone to prevent evil people from obtaining the said secret message....

maybe im just slow and got the completely wrong message.

[Typist]

To confuse things further...

We assume death is a sad regrettable event, something to be avoided.

How do we know this?

[G-Roll]

To confuse things further...

We assume death is a sad regrettable event, something to be avoided.

How do we know this?

we watch the body rot, turn into bones, and then finally dust. all of it. can the brain function if it isnt there?
as for any spiritual reasons i am not the one to disscuss that subject. i see no reason to believe i go to a pleasent theme park or a nasty place when i die.

[Typist]

we watch the body rot, turn into bones, and then finally dust. all of it.

True, factual.  

can the brain function if it isnt there?

Don't see how.

Doesn't really answer the question though.  

Upon what basis do we assume life is better than death?

[G-Roll]

we watch the body rot, turn into bones, and then finally dust. all of it.

True, factual.  

can the brain function if it isnt there?

Don't see how.

Doesn't really answer the question though.  

Upon what basis do we assume life is better than death?

the dead dont have sex...

but seriously, what is there observable that makes death seem like a good time? ill make an attempt to open my mind but death seems like a drag to me.
i look forward to you introducing me to seeing death in a whole new light.

[Typist]

the dead dont have sex...

Ha, ha!   Good one.

But,  at the moment of greatest sex intensity, we die for just a moment.   Seriously.  Not physically of course.  But psychologically.   At the moment of orgasm, "me" is gone, dead, non-existing.   And this form of death is very very very popular, eh?

but seriously, what is there observable that makes death seem like a good time?

None that I know of.  What factual data do we have that death is a bad time?

Some people prefer to believe in heaven.   Other people prefer to believe death of the body is the end of everything.   All of it faith, no data for any of it.

i look forward to you introducing me to seeing death in a whole new light.

Go have some sex, and then let's talk some more.  

[kelltrill]

But,  at the moment of greatest sex intensity, we die for just a moment.   Seriously.  Not physically of course.  But psychologically.   At the moment of orgasm, "me" is gone, dead, non-existing.   And this form of death is very very very popular, eh?

So death is one long orgasm?
...
I'm going to go kill myself right now.

[G-Roll]

but seriously, what is there observable that makes death seem like a good time? ill make an attempt to open my mind but death seems like a drag to me.
i look forward to you introducing me to seeing death in a whole new light.

ha!! best advise i have received here yet.

But, at the moment of greatest sex intensity, we die for just a moment. Seriously. Not physically of course. But psychologically. At the moment of orgasm, "me" is gone, dead, non-existing. And this form of death is very very very popular, eh?

that moment is caused by chemicals in the brain. when we rot "return to dust" the brain is gone along with the rest of us. How would that great intensity come about all on its own? And how would one experience it?

None that I know of. What factual data do we have that death is a bad time?

Some people prefer to believe in heaven. Other people prefer to believe death of the body is the end of everything. All of it faith, no data for any of it.

everything comes to a stop at death. that to me constitutes as a bad time. being removed from existence doesnt seem cool. and IMO any experience that can only seem positive by coming up with a pretty poetic reasoning is bad. its like sugar coating a terd. under all those sweet layers is....

i agree there is no data and its all up for reasoning and speculation. i also suppose we will find out first hand before science (or anyone else) can explain it to us.

[Typist]

So death is one long orgasm?

You got me, no idea.   All I was saying is that orgasm seems like a form of death.

I'm going to go kill myself right now.

There is a simpler solution, but I'm not gonna mention it on this family friendly forum.   You'll have to figure it out on your own.  

[Typist]

that moment is caused by chemicals in the brain.

Right.

when we rot "return to dust" the brain is gone along with the rest of us. How would that great intensity come about all on its own? And how would one experience it?

You got me.  

everything comes to a stop at death.

This is one THEORY that many people share.  There is no evidence to prove this theory, just as there is no evidence to heaven theories etc.

that to me constitutes as a bad time.

Well, we are wired to survive, so that's understandable.    

But logically, if there really is nothing, it doesn't quite follow to label nothing a bad time.   Sounds more like a place where bad times are no longer possible?  

being removed from existence doesnt seem cool.

Unless of course, we wear a Beavis and Butthead T-shirt to our own funeral, in which case we are awesome rad cool!

and IMO any experience that can only seem positive by coming up with a pretty poetic reasoning is bad. its like sugar coating a terd. under all those sweet layers is....

It's not really that poetic to point out the fact that we simply don't know.  

i agree there is no data and its all up for reasoning and speculation. i also suppose we will find out first hand before science (or anyone else) can explain it to us.

Ok, we're on the same page.  

What are the implications of understanding we have no data, and it's all up for reasoning and speculation?

[G-Roll]

Unless of course, we wear a Beavis and Butthead T-shirt to our own funeral, in which case we are awesome rad cool!

Lol i have no argument for your beavis and butthead logic.

This is one THEORY that many people share. There is no evidence to prove this theory, just as there is no evidence to heaven theories etc.

Agreed for the most part. Although outside of a idea of heaven i don’t recall any positive theories being brought up. I have no idea what your take on heaven is, or if you feel it even exists... but, blah, blah, blah...
Its almost like saying, i don’t have to try and smoke crack to really know if its bad for me.

But logically, if there really is nothing, it doesn't quite follow to label nothing a bad time. Sounds more like a place where bad times are no longer possible?

True, but a good time isn’t possible by the same logic. An eternity of nothing sounds like a bad time IMHO.

It's not really that poetic to point out the fact that we simply don't know.

No i wasn’t referring to that. I found your comment of comparing death to intense positive experiences, such as an orgasm to be admirable, and even a bit of poetic. A philosophical poetic comparison... if there is such a thing...
Anyways i enjoyed it and once thought myself perhaps something in death existed on and a dream like state was entered. Then the realization that (as obvious as i now see it and deem it obvious) without brain function, or a brain at all. How can one enter any state?
In no ways do i claim to know all these answers, it is all my speculation and ignorant thoughts.  

[Typist]

I have no idea what your take on heaven is, or if you feel it even exists...

Yes, heaven exists!!  

As philosophy nerds, enthusiastic speculators in to the realm of the unknown, manic typoholic blowhards, and all around goofy joke-sters, we have found heaven....

... in this forum!  

Is Whitney the real Jesus????   For us, perhaps it is so!  

Proof that theists are right about everything!!

but, blah, blah, blah...

No, that is incorrect, completely false and totally wrong.  

The right answer is, yada, yada, yada.