Euthyphro Once More.

[Typist]

Yeah, sure. I'm fifty-six years old. Married, no childen. I've been a professional musician all my life. I play the drums. I'm also a jazz composer. I dropped out of high-school to begin pursuing my career so I'm basically self-educated. I've played all over the world and I've read everything I could get my hands on, including cook books. I'm a damned good cook.

Hey J,

We seem to have some things in common.   We're the same age (58 next week) both married, no kids, and share an interest in music, especially jazz.   In our kitchen, I'm the helper.   I do all the prep, and all the clean up, and my wife does everything that requires intelligence.  

Nice to meet ya.

[Typist]

Thanks a lot for wasting my time.

Um, there are no victims on Internet forums.   You read and replied because you wished to, why not just leave it at that?

Also, Typist, logic is a system for determining the soundness of conclusions drawn from true premises.

How about "evaluating the soundness"?   As example, at one point in history it was perfectly logical to look up in to the sky, and conclude that the universe rotated around the earth.   That conclusion was a fair evaluation of the premise at that time, given the available data, but it was not a "determination" as in, the final true answer.

If you follow the rules of logic, and have true premises, then your conclusion will be correct.

See last example.   The thing is, we may THINK we have true premises, for very good reasons, and still be completely wrong.

It is nothing more than this, but what it is, is incredible, it is the fundamental way for divining truth in the universe.

As in, "the one true way"??   I'm sorry, apologies, but it's statements like this that cause some to quite logically conclude that for some, science and logic is a religion.

Your belittling of it as a human invention, does it a great disservice, it is much more than that.

I'm not belittling logic.  It's an excellent tool for very many things.   Respectfully, you are taking that fact, and then making an illogical leap to logic being an excellent tool for everything.  Everything is a very big place.

Blind faith in logic is the same process as blind faith in religion.    As human beings, we have an incurable need to KNOW.  We are obsessed by the need to understand and explain everything.   We used to declare that our holy books could explain everything, and now we want to declare that science and logic can explain everything.  

All I'm suggesting is that we be clearly aware of this built-in basis, and have some humor about it.

[pinkocommie]

Thanks a lot for wasting my time.

Um, there are no victims on Internet forums.   You read and replied because you wished to, why not just leave it at that?

I can understand SSY's frustration.  When you get into a debate with someone, the hope is that it will be an enriching conversation and not one person debating while the other person uses fallacious tactics in order to repeat their point over and over without actually debating their position.  The later is disingenuous and it is a waste of time because if you're a patient person and are willing to give the other person the benefit of the doubt, you end up spending a lot of time re-explaining yourself to someone who says they aren't catching your point when in reality, they're just waiting for their turn to reiterate their position and have no interest in your point.  Saying that it's the honest person's fault for believing and being patient with a liar doesn't really make sense to me, internet forum or not.

[Typist]

Hi Pinkocommie,

Saying that it's the honest person's fault for believing and being patient with a liar doesn't really make sense to me, internet forum or not.

I'm not trying to assign fault or blame.   I'm trying to suggest that our forum experience will be greatly enhanced if each of us take responsibility for our own experience.  

As example, my experience here is happening inside my head, not inside yours.   If an emotional trash pile starts to accumulate inside of my mind, it's my property, and my job to clean it up.  

You see, on the Net, nobody can dump emotional trash in to my mind but me.  

I decided to visit this forum, where I knew heated debates would likely appear.  I decided to visit this thread.  I decided to read your post.  I decided to have whatever internal reaction I've had to your post. On the net, nobody can force me to do any of these things.

What often happens is that we deliberately run to threads where we know we're going to find conflict, and then we claim to be victims of that conflict.     And then the thread becomes all about "me, me, me!" instead of the topic, which is probably more interesting.

So pinkocommie....

You made me type this!   Your post made me burp these bloviations!   You are a bad person!  I am such a victim, boo hoo, boo hoo, wail, etc! Troll!!  Spam!!  Moderator!!!    

[pinkocommie]

Hi Pinkocommie,

Saying that it's the honest person's fault for believing and being patient with a liar doesn't really make sense to me, internet forum or not.

I'm not trying to assign fault or blame.   I'm trying to suggest that our forum experience will be greatly enhanced if each of us take responsibility for our own experience.  

As example, my experience here is happening inside my head, not inside yours.   If an emotional trash pile starts to accumulate inside of my mind, it's my property, and my job to clean it up.  

You see, on the Net, nobody can dump emotional trash in to my mind but me.  

I decided to visit this forum, where I knew heated debates would likely appear.  I decided to visit this thread.  I decided to read your post.  I decided to have whatever internal reaction I've had to your post. On the net, nobody can force me to do any of these things.

What often happens is that we deliberately run to threads where we know we're going to find conflict, and then we claim to be victims of that conflict.     And then the thread becomes all about "me, me, me!" instead of the topic, which is probably more interesting.

So pinkocommie....

You made me type this!   Your post made me burp these bloviations!   You are a bad person!  I am such a victim, boo hoo, boo hoo, wail, etc! Troll!!  Spam!!  Moderator!!!    

You're ignoring the fact that the conflict isn't that an argument occurred, the conflict is that SSY seems to feel that the argument occurred and lasted as long as it did under entirely false pretenses.  As for the last line of your comment - I find strawmen neither funny nor cute.

[Typist]

You're ignoring the fact that the conflict isn't that an argument occurred, the conflict is that SSY seems to feel that the argument occurred and lasted as long as it did under entirely false pretenses.

Is this a fact, or just a claim?    Are we gods, do we know what all posters are thinking when they post?  

But, let's go ahead and assume the claim is true, just to move things along.   This is the Internet.   This is an ideology forum.   We have chosen to be anonymous, and dialog with total strangers on one of the most controversial topics of all time.  

All of us knew all this, and we came here anyway.   How do we travel from these well known facts, to victim status?    Where is the logic?

As for the last line of your comment - I find strawmen neither funny nor cute.

I'm sorry for your loss.  

Seriously, let's try to be clear minded and precise.  

If I experience offense at your dismissal of my so called  "humor", who is it exactly that decided to have this experience of offense?  

And who is the one and only person who can remove this experience from inside of my mind?

[pinkocommie]

Yeah, see, I don't really care.  I can see why SSY is frustrated.  You can't because the internet blah blah blah.  Whatever.

[Typist]

Yeah, see, I don't really care.  

Uh huh.  Yeah, see, I um, don't really believe you.

I can see why SSY is frustrated.  You can't because the internet blah blah blah.  Whatever.

What's really annoying about me is that I do see why _any of us_ get frustrated in these situations.  Because we want to.  

Evidence.  Nobody makes us do it.  Nobody CAN make us do it.

[pinkocommie]

Yeah, see, I don't really care.  

Uh huh.  Yeah, see, I um, don't really believe you.

I can see why SSY is frustrated.  You can't because the internet blah blah blah.  Whatever.

What's really annoying about me is that I do see why _any of us_ get frustrated in these situations.  Because we want to.  

Evidence.  Nobody makes us do it.  Nobody CAN make us do it.

See, people who use straw men in their arguments have no issue using fallacy in order to try to prove a point.  I have no interest in dealing with fallacy, it's tiring.  So, instead of going to SSY route and getting frustrated, I'm recognizing that you're not the kind of person I want to waste my time talking to and moving on.  Say what you need to about my posts to make yourself happy/feel better/feel smart/whatever.  Again, don't care.    Have fun.

[Typist]

Ok, at your request, here's the evidence....

See, people who use straw men in their arguments have no issue using fallacy in order to try to prove a point.  I have no interest in dealing with fallacy, it's tiring.  So, instead of going to SSY route and getting frustrated, I'm recognizing that you're not the kind of person I want to waste my time talking to and moving on.  Say what you need to about my posts to make yourself happy/feel better/feel smart/whatever.  Again, don't care.    Have fun.

[pinkocommie]

[i_am_i]

What's really annoying about me is that I do see why _any of us_ get frustrated in these situations.  Because we want to.

Actually, what's really annoying about you is that you contribute nothing. You don't engage, you don't seem to take anything anyone says here seriously. It's your lack of respect and the way it seems that you're having fun at our expense that makes you annoying.

"Trippy! Ah man, the colors!"

Now what the hell is that supposed to mean or contribute? I think you're one of those who talks just to hear himself talking. There is nothing of substance in anything you've written here, sir.

[Ihateusernames]

What's really annoying about me is that I do see why _any of us_ get frustrated in these situations.  Because we want to.

Actually, what's really annoying about you is that you contribute nothing. You don't engage, you don't seem to take anything anyone says here seriously. It's your lack of respect and the way it seems that you're having fun at our expense that makes you annoying.

"Trippy! Ah man, the colors!"

Now what the hell is that supposed to mean or contribute? I think you're one of those who talks just to hear himself talking. There is nothing of substance in anything you've written here, sir.

well, his worldview is "ignorant" afterall... ; D

[Typist]

Ok, this seems to be becoming the Typist thread.   It's ok with me if we return to the original topic, but until then, let's keep the record straight.

Actually, what's really annoying about you is that you contribute nothing.

It would be more accurate to say I contribute nothing that interests you.  And that's ok for you to feel and say.  I make no claim to be interesting to all readers.  

Actually though, it seems me personally does interest you, as you keep bringing me up.  Again, I don't mind, but if I don't contribute anything, why are you still reading my posts and replying to them???  

You don't engage,

Sorry, exactly wrong actually, I engage too much, as this post proves.  

you don't seem to take anything anyone says here seriously.

The fact is, here I am, spending time on this little forum, instead of any of the millions of other forums out there.   Documented proof of taking you seriously.  Actions speak louder than words, but it seems you want the words.  

It's your lack of respect

Sigh...   I don't take you seriously, I don't respect you etc etc.  C'mon man, you claim to have lots of life experience.   Why not use it?   Why do you care whether I respect you or not?    And why should I respect your posts if they're going to about me, a pretty boring topic?

and the way it seems that you're having fun at our expense that makes you annoying.

I don't take you seriously, I don't respect you, I'm having fun at your expense etc etc.   Truth is friend, is I'm having fun, because fun is fun, and it has nothing at all to do with you.   Y'ok?

There is nothing of substance in anything you've written here, sir.

Then it should be easy to address the points I've made in a number of threads, and show them to be worthless.   Why not proceed with that, I'm agreeable to a dialog on the topic of the forum.

[Typist]

Hi Phillysoul,

Sure it can be entertaining but logic is much more than entertainment.

Please note I said, "Using the mind to explore the God premise".   I didn't mean to say all use of logic is just entertainment.

I'm not 100% sure where you are taking this analogy but I will address it as best I can (as off topic as it is).

Thanks.

Most theists who believe in God claim to have some sort of revelation from that God by which they know Him/Her/Them. These sources of revelation from this/these God(s) have differences/contradictions ect. which give rise to different religions. Humanity (according to the theist) must decide which of these sources of revelation are accurate and which are not. The theists goal is to discover which view or perception of God is in line with reality. The process by which the theist does this separation of truth and fiction can be accomplished many different ways. Logic is one of the ways the theist can weed out the rubbish from the truth. Logic can and does change our perception of who God is, it can help the theist determine what concepts of Him/Her/Them are BS and which are plausible. Sure it could be that a giant drunk bully god is about to kick the earth into oblivion, it could be that out perception of logic is distorted and that we are all crazies all blinded by a false reality; however, I don't have any reason to believe that there is or we are.

Can we look at the facts?   When this process started some people believed in God, and some didn't.   After thousands of years of such analysis (or hundreds if you want to limit it to science) the situation is the same.  Some people believe in God, and some don't.   Where is the evidence that human logic is currently capable of settling this particular question?

The ants have a quite sophisticated "civilization".   But they simply don't have the physical equipment to understand what a human being is, or what California means etc.  They just can't, no matter how hard they try.

I'm suggesting we may be in that same position.  We're very clever indeed at what we're clever at, but we may simply not have the hardware to comprehend something the size of the God premise.