Letter to a Christian friend

[Dagda]

Upon seeing your letter I immediately thought that this is the perfect place to pose a question which has been on my mind for years: why does the existence of evil rule out the existence of God? You quote instances in which God has committed acts you would define as evil, and seem to come to the conclusion that this entails that God cannot exist.

I know you weren't talking to me, but if it's ok I'd like to say that this is an excellent question.
For me, the sticking point is that God defines evil for man and then proceeds to act in an evil manner. (According to the bible of course)
It's not that I don't believe in the christian God because evil exists, it's that I don't believe in the christian God, because he tells me what evil is and then does it, over and over again.
So my options are, believe in the evil hypocritical god of the bible or look elsewhere.

Ah, but my problem is that people seem to use it to deny the existence of ALL deities. Anyway, many of the people who use this argument attempt to show that God is evil by quoting passages from the Bible. This seems to be brought about by an ignorance of biblical studies (obviously I am not expecting everyone to be a biblical scholar, but no-one should base an argument around something of which they only have a passing knowledge). We know that the Old Testament (where much of the blood lust comes in) was edited during and after the war between Israel and Judea (a real war) so that the Jews (Judea) came out smelling of roses. This meant altering certain passages so that God became far more mean toward the Israelites. As far as we can tell, the original passages where far more New Testament-style God (less blood and guts). As many secularists are so fond of saying, the Bible cannot be used to prove the existence of God, but neither can it be used to prove His non-existence; the Bible may be the Word of God, but it was written by the Hand of Man, so we must look outside the Bible to settle the God debate.

[Mark L Holland]

Ah, but my problem is that people seem to use it to deny the existence of ALL deities. Anyway, many of the people who use this argument attempt to show that God is evil by quoting passages from the Bible. This seems to be brought about by an ignorance of biblical studies (obviously I am not expecting everyone to be a biblical scholar, but no-one should base an argument around something of which they only have a passing knowledge). We know that the Old Testament (where much of the blood lust comes in) was edited during and after the war between Israel and Judea (a real war) so that the Jews (Judea) came out smelling of roses. This meant altering certain passages so that God became far more mean toward the Israelites. As far as we can tell, the original passages where far more New Testament-style God (less blood and guts).

As many secularists are so fond of saying, the Bible cannot be used to prove the existence of God, but neither can it be used to prove His non-existence; the Bible may be the Word of God, but it was written by the Hand of Man, so we must look outside the Bible to settle the God debate.

  To Dagda

  If the bible cannot prove the existence of a God then there is no need to use the bible to disprove the existence of a God.  The primary reason I use the bible is to counter claims made by Christians.  The Bible cannot have been guided by the hand of a divine being who is all knowing, and all perfect.  It is to flawed, contradictory and inconsistent.  You said "the bible may be the word of God, but it was written by the hand of man".  Which makes it worthless as an instrument for knowing the true will of a God.  

  As for looking outside of the Bible to settle the God debate, this would accomplish little.  Only a God or Gods can give evidence or proofs that would settle such a debate.  Do I believe in a God yes, does this mean that the God I believe in exists for anyone else, No.  God or Gods can only exist where God or Gods have given evidence and proofs of their existence.  Until that happens they might as well not exist whether they exist or not.

 

[Zyva]

Ah, but my problem is that people seem to use it to deny the existence of ALL deities.

So, using the atrocities in the bible to deny the biblical god is one thing and using the atrocities in the bible to deny any god or gods is another. Is that what you're saying? If it is, I get that and I would have to agree. I personally don't have a problem with there being a god. I just don't believe in the existence of the biblical god.

Anyway, many of the people who use this argument attempt to show that God is evil by quoting passages from the Bible. This seems to be brought about by an ignorance of biblical studies (obviously I am not expecting everyone to be a biblical scholar, but no-one should base an argument around something of which they only have a passing knowledge).

Point taken. I'm certainly not a biblical scholar.  The fact remains that the biblical, albeit OT view of god, is that god is evil. Why would anyone quote passages from any other book to show that God is evil when the bible is such a plentiful source?

We know that the Old Testament (where much of the blood lust comes in) was edited during and after the war between Israel and Judea (a real war) so that the Jews (Judea) came out smelling of roses. This meant altering certain passages so that God became far more mean toward the Israelites. As far as we can tell, the original passages where far more New Testament-style God (less blood and guts).

I'd like more information about the editing of the Old Testament by the Jewish scribes and the original passages. Could you point me in a direction to start? I prefer books to websites and I'd appreciate your suggestions greatly!

As many secularists are so fond of saying, the Bible cannot be used to prove the existence of God, but neither can it be used to prove His non-existence; the Bible may be the Word of God, but it was written by the Hand of Man, so we must look outside the Bible to settle the God debate.

If you have to look outside of the bible to find the proof of existence of the christian God, why bother with the bible at all?
Where would you look, outside of the bible to settle the God debate?

[Dagda]

Zyva, my first suggestion on Jewish editing would be The Moses Legacy. Graham Philips can make huge leaps with his history sometimes, but this book is one of his better ones. There are actually some very well researched chapters, and from what I can remember (I have since lost the book or I would have provided more info on the Israel-Judea war) it has a good bibliography, so at worse it will be a starting place for further research. Sean Martin’s ‘The Gnostics’ is also a good book for further information about early Christian customs and biblical alterations, but doesn’t go beyond the 2nd century BCE. Also, keep an eye on the History Channel and eventually a programme will come on which will concentrate on Biblical evidence. These do have a habit of concentrating on the NT for some reason, but still interesting. Be warned, once you have read a few books on the subject, the T.V. programmes tend to just reiterate your knowledge, but add more pictures. Makes me wonder why I bother paying for Documentaries in my Sky package.

Where would I settle the God debate? I would like to see more scientific study going into miracles and possessions. These would appear to the the easiest way to test deities. People genuinely believe they have witnessed miracles/been possessed so I think even if God is not found the study would probably come across some interesting facts about the human psyche. I could also go into why I am a believer, which may or may not be relevant, but I suspect no-one would be particularly interested in why I think God/s is/are necessary.

[Mark L Holland]

To Dagda

  Let’s start with Demon possession, I am not sure how one can prove an actual possession, I saw the movie the forth kind, a month or so ago, supposedly it was about UFO abductions in Alaska.  But what I came away with after watching the movie is that it had nothing to do with UFO’s.  What they encountered was a rash of Demon Possessions.  If the translations were correct, then they were dealing with Demons not ET’s.

  If we assume that the footage and testimony were real, and the events really happened then all one could say is that Demons are real, but Demons being real does not prove that a Universal God is real.  There could be a spiritual or energy realm that coexists with the physical realm and they over lap every so often and these over laps allow possessions to occur but even if one could prove the reality of Demon possessions, this does not prove the existence of a Universal God.

  To tell you the truth, if the fourth kind used actual film, and accurate translations, then I would say it is the best evidence ever gathered to validate possessions.  If one could prove Ghosts, spirits poltergeists actually exist and are real, then that is all you would have done, proving the existence of these things only prove they exist it does nothing to prove the existence of a Universal God.

  My family has a long history of interaction with what we call guardian angels.  Every member of my family has been in one or more situations singly or in groups where we should have suffered serious injuries and or death and came out of them smelling like a rose.  Now even if these guardian angels could be proven to exist, and be proven to have intervened on our behalf.  

  What does this mean in regards to the existence of a Universal God.  Absolutely nothing, if spiritual beings do exist that intercede on the behalf of humans to help safe guard them, then all you have proven is their existence, but their existence does not prove the existence of a Universal God.

  A elementary school bombing where the children reported seeing angels and dead relatives who helped them to exit the building after the detonation.  If what the children reported seeing was real it would give an indication that something beyond our physical awareness exists but it would give no evidence to support a Universal God concept.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cokeville_ ... age_crisis

 

[Zyva]

To Dagda, thank you for the reading suggestions!!!! I'll get started on that. I've seen lot's of programs on the History Channel, but like you said they mostly stick to the NT. "The Naked Archeologist" is one of my favorites even though I don't always catch it.

Where would I settle the God debate? I would like to see more scientific study going into miracles and possessions. These would appear to the the easiest way to test deities. People genuinely believe they have witnessed miracles/been possessed so I think even if God is not found the study would probably come across some interesting facts about the human psyche. I could also go into why I am a believer, which may or may not be relevant, but I suspect no-one would be particularly interested in why I think God/s is/are necessary.

 I've attended several exorcisms by several different religions.I could write a book about it. I've yet to see a person who was in any way possessed, so I don't believe in possession or demons for that matter.
As far as miracles go, I just don't know, how would somebody go about studying a miracle?  I'm sure that many have tried and if I were interested enough to look it up I'm sure I could find some scientific studies of some miracles.
I tend to lean towards almost all of them being coincidence. Weird coincidence no doubt, but coincidence nonetheless.

[Zyva]

To tell you the truth, if the fourth kind used actual film, and accurate translations, then I would say it is the best evidence ever gathered to validate possessions.  

It didn't, The Fourth Kind was a movie and everything in it was pretend. There was no actual footage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fourth_Kind

[Dagda]

All very interesting points. Mark, I see what you mean. Even if demons turned out to be real spiritual entities, then that just means demons are real spiritual entities. However, science is as yet not advanced enough to search for a Universal God, and as such the only way that our present equipment could possibly try and explore the God Debate in any substantial way would be to attempt to study such phenomenon which have been associated with God. Although this is not perfect, it could in some way bring us closer to settling the argument (that is assuming that it can be settled) by proving/disproving that which is traditionally seen as only a step away from the God-head.

Zyva, although I have never attended an exorcism, I do suspect that most of it is down to self-suggestion. For instance, if someone believes that they are in a haunted house then noises that they would normally associate with the wind or the creaking of an old house become obvious manifestations of the paranormal. However, even if all ghost/demon infestations can be directly linked to this self-suggestion, this warrants an investigation in itself so that we may further explore the power of the human mind. In other words, even if all supernatural events can be explained through science, thus does not mean they should not be investigated. And if it turns out that there is more to the paranormal than delusion and coincidence, then that would be one of the most exiting scientific discoveries in the history of humanity-on par with the discovery of extra-terrestrial life

[Mark L Holland]

Damn about the (fourth Kind) I just read an article on it, Movies should not claim they are based upon real events when they are not.  Dagda I agree with you that Science should really begin in-depth research into the human mind and it's capabilities.  If someone claims to be possessed then put them in a hospital and find out what the problem is, if science cannot figure it out, bring in a priest if the priest fixes it, then figure out how it was fixed.  Could the priest be a latent telepath or empathic.

  I heard a scientist talking about UFO’s one time and he said that he had no idea whether they existed or not, whether they were nothing more then a mental delusion or not, but that there was so much circumstantial evidence that science as a whole should consider doing in-depth research into the subject to find out what the UFO phenomenon actually is.  Instead of just sitting back and saying it’s delusional and making no effort to show that, that is really the answer.

  The same with extrasensory perception, there are mountains of circumstantial evidence to support the belief that some people have psychic abilities but no real in-depth scientific studies to delve into it to prove it or disprove it.  The U.S. and Russian Governments have been using Remote Viewers for decades and while some information about them and their abilities have reached the public arena, no solid scientific research has been done to study them and their abilities.

  The same with spirits or ghosts, having some ex plumbers stumbling around in a weekly tv show is not my idea of a scientific effort.  If science could actually figure out how to establish contact with a spirit or ghost, it would be interesting to find out if they are nothing then a psychic memory imprinted on the spatial background.  Or are they spiritual beings fully aware and if contacted could they communicate with the researchers.  Or are they restricted in what they can say or do?

  I do believe that there exists a spiritual realm that co-exists with the physical realm, and believe that there are spiritual beings that also co-exists with the physical realm.  And if science actually made a effort to advance and understand paranormal and psychic abilities in humans, I think that this spiritual realm could easily be proven to exist.  While this advancement in human abilities might allow one to contact a God would a God even be aware of the attempt to contact him/her/it/they.  

  Or would this God react they way we would to a mosquito landing on our ear lobe by simply smashing it.  While I believe that God or Gods exist I do not believe that Allah, Jehovah or God/Jesus exists, these Gods are simply imaginary Gods created my men.  If God or Gods exist their power, energy and being may be so massive that a human may be no bigger than an electron circling an atom in relation to them.  I personally believe in a Universal God, Meaning that the Universe itself is the physical embodiment of God and that everything that exists is simply a microscopic piece of God.

  And before the Atheists start in, nothing I have stated can be proven, nor would I even attempt to claim that anything I have stated is fact or anywhere near being fact, what I have said is simply my personal thoughts on these subjects.
 

[wullie1320]

Upon seeing your letter I immediately thought that this is the perfect place to pose a question which has been on my mind for years: why does the existence of evil rule out the existence of God? You quote instances in which God has committed acts you would define as evil, and seem to come to the conclusion that this entails that God cannot exist. I have always thought this is a little like saying that Hitler and the Nazi Party was evil therefore Hitler did not exist. Clearly the Argument From Evil is as flawed as the argument proposing that Hitler does not exist, and as such I must enquire as to why you think this is a justification for atheism? I assume that you have various other reasons for disbelief in a deity, but as you think the Argument From Evil is a justification I would be interested to see why you adhere to the Argument.

I think the simple answer is the human mind, Humans created the bible, the human mind created god. People either choose to be good or bad. a human can show a bahaviour of greed and self interest, this does not help other fellow humans and could be construd as evil. I could go on but you then have to discuss morals, which again is a human issue and not a divne one.

[Dagda]

The same with extrasensory perception, there are mountains of circumstantial evidence to support the belief that some people have psychic abilities but no real in-depth scientific studies to delve into it to prove it or disprove it.  The U.S. and Russian Governments have been using Remote Viewers for decades and while some information about them and their abilities have reached the public arena, no solid scientific research has been done to study them and their abilities.

   Google. Although not perfect, it is as close as science gets to the study of the power of the human mind.

[Jolly Sapper]

Isn't there a research outfit with a $1 million "prize" for anybody that can pass the tests they've devised for proving any kind of super powers (telepathy, telekinesis, psychokinesis, pyrokinesis, etc).  One would believe that if these abilities existed at least one person would take a crack at the cash.  

I occasionally read about/hear about it but I never remember the name of the outfit.

[Dagda]

Rand I think. The Ganzfeld is testing nothing which could be described as ‘superpower’, but if the human mind is capable of influencing external events the without the use of the body.

[Jolly Sapper]

Rand I think. The Ganzfeld is testing nothing which could be described as ‘superpower’, but if the human mind is capable of influencing external events the without the use of the body.

Oh, I found this.

http://noosphere.princeton.edu/

Its a long semi-boring read but it deals with the subject of determining whether the human mind can influence external events.  I haven't made my way through too much the information.

Click on the "Procedures" button at the top-center of the page to read about the experiment.  The "Data Access" button takes you to a selection of pages where you can view some results.