Free Will and an All Knowing god

[Mike M.]

Well, I searched for this and didn't find anything similar, but if anyone has already thought of this I am sorry and give all credit to you.

My thought is this.  How can we have free will, but at the same time have an all knowing god?

If god knows everything that is going to happen in every single second of our lives, than we can't have an all knowing god and have free will at the same time, because to deviate from that course our life is going to take by using our free will would make god wrong.  But, if god is omniscient (right word?) and therefore always correct, than we cannot deviate from that course that he already knows our life is going to take.  Think of it as -- Since god is all knowing, he will know everything that will happen, and therefore we can't have free will, because every choice we will make in our life is already known by god.

Example.  If an omniscient god knew that I was going to go to school tomorrow, and then the next day, and then skip school, since he knows that that series of events is going to happen, I can't exercise free will and make a choice to go to school on the third day, unless he isn't really all knowing.

  It is kind of hard to explain, but if you think about it, I'm sure you'll get what I am trying to say.  

Although I think my logic is sound, it could be totally flawed, and if someone could point out where I went wrong I would be very thankful.

A second thought that just came to mind is that if god is all knowing, than can he himself have free will?  Using the Biblical god here, if he knew that he was going to create humans, and that he would have to wipe his first attempt out with a flood, than he couldn't make the first people  good in the first place because it would contradict what he KNEW was going to happen, and therefore contradict his omniscience.

Well, at this point I'm confusing myself, so I'll give this more time for thought and let you guys respond, too.

Thanks,
Mike M.

[Ellainix]

I don't believe in God, but I don't think this is illogical. If a supreme invisible cloud man created the universe, he probably could know everything you will do, while still letting you choose. But, I don't believe in free will either.

[G-Roll]

There is the possibility of free will in religion. Ill go with Christianity, seeming that’s the one I most familiar with. Having free will just simply means the ability to do what you choose. In Christianity you have the ability to do whatever you like. Although it is sometimes a bit warped by visions of threats and hellfire. But when you really look at it you cant blame the god for threats and ignorance of his followers… well I guess if gods, goddesses, and what not are your thing than maybe you can. But either way you can choose not to follow any of the teachings or word of god.
But if you have free will, then god can have no plan.  Without the bad things happen for a reason “plan.” You take away the god works in mysterious ways and thus are left with a god that does not participate in this world. I kind of see it as a double edge sword.

[LoneMateria]

This thought process isn't new Mike sorry.  I've used it against my Christian friend before and I can't remember where I heard it from.  But it just means you are thinking.  First off I don't believe in any deity.  The god of the bible is a contradicting character and you seemed to work towards talking about it but never did.  I'm gonna start with omniscience and free will.

If you have an all knowing god then you simply can't have free will.  This is because every single action of your life is determined before you are even born.  Which to Christians (I tell them) that their god isn't already knew and determined (because he is in charge of everything he decided how my life will be before I was born) that I was gonna be an atheist and if he kills me then by your (Christian) claims he will send me to hell to be tortured forever because he already knew he didn't give me enough to go on to make me believe in him.  My actions have been determined before I was born and my choices in this world are an illusion if your god is all knowing.  I've pulled this argument out once or twice to counter the claim that Sin exists because of "free-will".

Now what you seemed to be getting to but didn't put into words is how the god of the bibles traits are incompatible.  Omniscience (all knowing) and Omnipotent (all powerful) contradict each other.  I've never got a counter argument to this before, it just seems to catch people off guard.  I ask something so simple, is your god able to change his/her mind?  If yes then he isn't all knowing (because he doesn't know when he will change his mind) and if no then he isn't all powerful.  It's self contradicting.

[G-Roll]

If yes then he isn't all knowing (because he doesn't know when he will change his mind) and if no then he isn't all powerful. It's self contradicting.

whoa thats kinda deep, i never thought of that one.

If you have an all knowing god then you simply can't have free will.

why? just because god knows everything you cant do what you want? yes god may know someone might grow up to be a child toucher, but unless god interferes with the said path you have the free will to continue to choose to like kiddies.
however if this all knowing being changes things or lays out paths that you will follow then no, there is no free will.

[G-Roll]

I ask something so simple, is your god able to change his/her mind? If yes then he isn't all knowing (because he doesn't know when he will change his mind) and if no then he isn't all powerful. It's self contradicting.

but if he is both all powerful and all knowing... then he wouldnt need to change his mind at all. Lol sometimes its alot easier to defend god...  

[Mike M.]

Thank you for that, LoneMateria, you basically just put what I was trying to put into words into an organized paragraph.  I don't believe in any deity either, but was rather using the Christian god as an example.  I do, though, go to a Catholic school, so will probably bring this up to the religion teacher, and see how he responds.

Another one of the contradictions in the bible that I find flabbergasting is god demanding people follow his laws, when he himself doesn't.  In the ten commandments he says, "You shall not kill", yet he kills numerous amounts of times for reasons that are just so trivial.  What happened to this all forgiving god that the Catholic Church teaches today?  I was told that no matter what I do, god would always take me back, but apparently god doesn't treat all of his children equally.

On another note, I was also taught that not only will god always forgive you, but he will never EVER abandon you.  But, in the old testament, when he tells Hosea the prophet to marry Ghomer the prostitute, it is supposed to symbolize god's relationship with Israel.  Hosea has three children with Ghomer, and names each one after a threat by God to the Israelites.  His third child, he names "Lo-Ammi" which means, "Not my children".  In this threat, he was saying that if the Israelites didn't get their act together, he was going to ABANDON them forever.  It seems to me that Catholics in particular, or maybe all christians (I don't know much about Christian branches other than Catholicism) say that the bible is the infallible word of god, but then when god seems like a total dick (in the old testament specifically) they just go "Oh that?  Don't worry about that, god loves you no matter what, even if this bible verse contradicts it."

Thanks,
Mike M.

[Reginus]

Open theism essentially says that to a large extend, God does not know the future.

http://www.gregboyd.org/essays/essays-open-theism/response-to-critics/

[Mike M.]

Thank you for that, although that said it was only from a Baptist council.  I was more referring to Catholicism (sorry I didn't make that very clear) because that was the religion I was/am raised in, and the one I know the most about, and therefore the one that I can find the most holes in.

Thanks,
Mike M.

[Reginus]

Thank you for that, although that said it was only from a Baptist council.  I was more referring to Catholicism (sorry I didn't make that very clear) because that was the religion I was/am raised in, and the one I know the most about, and therefore the one that I can find the most holes in.

Wait.... what?  

I didn't think that open theism is a distinctly Baptist or Catholic or Non-Catholic position.

[Mike M.]

Just went back and re-read it, thought it said was FROM a 1996 Baptist Conference, while it said it was prepared for a 1996 Baptist conference.  My bad  

BUT, back to the original subject please

Thanks,
Mike M.

[Reginus]

Oh ok. So do you have any immediate objections to the open theism position?

[LoneMateria]

Lots of fun seemed to happen while I was gone.

whoa thats kinda deep, i never thought of that one.

Not original of me either.  But it's a great thought provoker so I've kept using it.  First person I heard use it was Matt Dillahunty from The Atheist Experience (the link is in my siggie if anyone wants to check it out).

why? just because god knows everything you cant do what you want? yes god may know someone might grow up to be a child toucher, but unless god interferes with the said path you have the free will to continue to choose to like kiddies.
however if this all knowing being changes things or lays out paths that you will follow then no, there is no free will.

Right, everything has technically been orchestrated since before we were born.  In this type of system choice is an illusion since you don't decide, it has been decided you will make choice x.  There is no way for you not to make choice x thus the choice is an illusion.  It's kind of like having a criminal corner you in an ally and say, "Here's your choice, give me all your money ... or i'll shoot you and take it."  You technically have the choice to say No, but you don't have a choice in the matter, that choice is an illusion.  God does the same thing, but just on a grander scale (at least if he is omniscient).

but if he is both all powerful and all knowing... then he wouldnt need to change his mind at all. Lol sometimes its alot easier to defend god...  lol.

[LoneMateria]

Oh ok. So do you have any immediate objections to the open theism position?

I do  

[Reginus]

I do  

yep.

Fortunately this time the topic at hand is (mostly) philosophy based (instead of being based on objective evidence), so we don't have to argue about his credentials for saying that 95-98% of the NT is unchanged, or anything like that.