The "War" on Christmas?

[Mark L Holland]

To Whitney

  Sorry about the confusion, this board moves faster then I expected and when I went back to check on posts I did not think to check back further then the first page.  So from now on I will check on the other pages to make sure that I respond to replies to my posts.  So you do not think that I am just a troll.

  In answer to your first reply, it does matter what the season is called and it does matter as to the reason for the season.  While there are a half dozen or dozen other religious celebrations that occur at this same time of year none of those celebrations are a recognized federal holiday only Christmas is.  I have the same objections to Thanksgiving being a recognized holiday, all it is, is a camouflaged Christian holiday.

  No religion nor any beliefs of any religion should be recognized by federal, state or local governments.  By having Christmas as a recognized holiday you are showing that all other beliefs and celebrations are inherently inferior to the Christian beliefs and celebrations.  This is fundamentally contradictory to the separation of church and state, and it goes against all that the founding fathers stood for in creating a secular nation.

  As for a war on Hanukkah or Ramadan they are not nationally recognized holidays, I have no problems with other invalid religious beliefs, I simply have a problem with the invalid Christian belief.  Judaism and Islam do not threaten this nation and as long as they do not threaten this nation I care little about them.  Christianity on the other hand threatens this nation and as such needs to be put into it’s place.  Easter is a nationally recognized holiday and as such it should not be a recognized holiday.

  Let’s clarify something, freedom of religion goes hand in hand with freedom from religion.  There can be no freedom from religion if the Government directly supports or indirectly supports one religious belief as being superior to all other religious beliefs.  So long as Christianity attempts to apply pressure to the federal, state or local governments to enact secular laws to enforce their invalid beliefs they are a threat to this country.

  If Christianity held it’s beliefs to be personal and individual and not universally applicable to others I would have no problems with them, but never in their history have they done this,

[Ellainix]

Christianity on the other hand threatens this nation and as such needs to be put into it’s place.  Easter is a nationally recognized holiday and as such it should not be a recognized holiday.

[Mark L Holland]

Christianity on the other hand threatens this nation and as such needs to be put into it’s place.  Easter is a nationally recognized holiday and as such it should not be a recognized holiday.

  So do you agree with or disagree with my statement
 

[G-Roll]

Judaism and Islam do not threaten this nation and as long as they do not threaten this nation I care little about them.

"We have repeatedly issued warnings, over a number of years. Following these warnings and these calls, anti-American explosions took place in a number of Islamic countries."
Osama bin Laden

"If you don't give us justice. If you don't give us equality.
If you don't give us our share of America. If you don't stay
out of our way and leave us alone, we're gonna burn America down."
Abdul Alim Musa
Washington, D.C. Imam

"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth..."
Omar Ahmad
Council on American Islamic Relations

"Ultimately, we (Muslims) can never be full citizens of this country...because there is no way we can be fully committed to the institutions and ideologies of this country..."
Ihsan Bagby
Council on American Islamic Relations

"I am in support of the Hamas movement"
"Address people according to their minds. When I speak with the American, I speak with someone who doesn't know anything."
Nihad Awad
Council on American Islamic Relations

"The 9/11 hijackers should be honored as martyrs."
The "U.S. risks further terrorism attacks because it
oppresses Muslims around the world. "Without justice,
there will be warfare, and it can come to this country, too."
Warith Deen Umar
Former Muslim Chaplain, New York Prisons


"When we hear someone refer to the great mujahid Osama bin Laden as a 'terrorist', we should defend our brother and refer to him as a freedom fighter..."
From "The Spirit of Jihad", published July 1999, in Al-Talib, the Muslim News magazine at UCLA, when Lekovic was one of the magazine's managing editors.
Edina Lekovic
Muslim Public Affairs Council

"In time, this so-called democracy will crumble, and
there will be nothing. And the only thing left will be Islam."
and
On stoning women: "If Allah says stone them to death, through the Prophet Muhammad,
then you stone them to death, because it's the obedience of Allah and his messenger... nothing personal."
Siraj Wahhaj
Brooklyn, New York Imam

"Muslims cannot accept the legitimacy of the existing
American order, since it is against the orders and
ordainments of Allah."
Imam Zaid Shakir
Former Muslim Chaplain at Yale University

"Let us continue the protests. Let us damn America.
Let us damn Israel. Let us damn their allies until death.
"Mohammad is leader. The Qur'an is our constitution. Jihad is our path..."
and
"Allah turned the Jews into monkeys and pigs."
Sami Al Arian
Former Professor, Univ. of S. Florida

[Mark L Holland]

To G-Roll

  I knew someone was going to challenge that statement.  Islam is doing nothing more then responding to our past involvement with the middle east from recognizing Israel and fully supporting Israel against them.  Please remember that the English and Americans and other European powers occupied and controlled the middle east in the past.  We had established puppet Governments such as the Shaw of Iran and Saddam Hussein.  As for your posted statements, they sound like standard religious fanatics put these fools side by side with our fundamentalists and evangelicals and the only way to tell them apart is the turban.

  We did not become a target for the Islamic extremists until after Bush the Father sent Christian forces into Saudi Arabia and then Iraq.  Bin laden was our ally during the Russian Afghan war and did not become our active enemy until Bush the Fathers Crusade against Iraq.  The only thing that it takes to end this mess is to sign a cease fire with Al Qaeda and the Taliban stating that we will keep our Christian arses out of the middle east, and they keep their Islamic arses out of our country.

  Let them know that if we get hit we start dropping MOAB’ (Massive Ordinance Air Blast) on top of their heads and that we will not bother with ground attacks we will simply bomb them into glass parking lots and then turn those parking lots into Pig Farms.

  The only thing that it takes to put a Moslem on the Homeland Security watch list is for him or her to cross their eyes.  While Most Moslems are like most Christians in that they just want to be left to live their lives as they wish, if some charismatic Islamic zealot managed to convince every Moslem in America to rise up in a revolt against us, the best they could hope for is two to three months of civil war before being exterminated.

  The same with a race war in America while American Blacks and American Hispanics could cause some devastating damage in a full fledge civil war none of these groups have the numbers or heart it would take to destroy this country and would be wiped out.  Besides though there is a lot of back and forth between races, non of them are abused enough or scorned enough to motivate them to the point of starting a civil war.  Or the heart it would take to burn this country to the ground.

  The threat to this country is Christians, not Moslems while the majority of Christians are probably decent people they can be whipped into religious furies by the evangelicals and fundamentalists.  Prop 8 in CA is a perfect example of this threat, and unlike the Moslems the Christians have the numbers and the heart to turn this country into a theological dictatorship.
 

[G-Roll]

I agree with about 90% of what you posted. Christianity is the biggest dog in the yard here in America. Thus holds the most power. I agree the influence of Christianity works its ways into our politicians and to this day can be manipulated into influencing votes and even other non political events. So in a way Christianity inside America threatens us more.
However outside of America not so much. Yes fundamentalist/extremist of both sides are equally hard headed and… well…  retarded. But one would have to point out 911 and other horrific terror attacks in western countries abroad.
We have already bombed these places into glass parking lots, pig farms, and back to the stone ages. But that’s what a lot of these places where before we dropped munitions. You mention the Russian and Afghan wars, well they have been fighting since then and for many of those in that generation it’s all they know.
Diplomacy died with the Islamic extremists. Its partially our fault. But if their sole intention is to spread Islam and crush everything else would have diplomacy worked in the first place?
I will say however that I fully supported the 1st Gulf war, Dessert Storm. I was only in High School and have no idea what the war was even really about, or what was in it for us, or what underlining factors drove us into war. But I have been to Kuwait twice now and have met many a Kuwaiti citizen. Civilian, military, and the bottom of the social barrel over there. I have been to Al Jabbar Air Base and have seen the building where high ranking officers, pilots, and cadets where executed. I have heard of rape camps set up and all kinds of horrific acts that took place. So I support liberating Kuwait if nothing else. But that is a whole other topic.
But to state that Islamic extremist don’t threaten America… Well just throw on a Garth Brooks t-shirt and take a stroll in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Iran, Pakistan, and quite possibly even in some parts of Saudi Arabia. And then take into consideration that nothing really prevents many of these people (extremists) from entering the US. As the quotes I posted showed.

[Mark L Holland]

To G-Roll

  We create our own monsters, whether it was Hitler, Japan Stalin non of these people or countries would have been hostile to us if it was not for us allowing it.  I am glad that you managed to go to those places and were not killed.  It was not a healthy area for Americans even before 9/11.  As for the first gulf war, Bush the Father wanted a war and got his war.

  Hussein went to the US ambassador before invading Kuwait and asked what our response would be if he went to war with Kuwait.  The ambassador responded that the Bush administration wanted good relations with Iraq and that we had no interest in border disputes between Moslem countries and that we would not get involved in such disputes.

  Hussein invaded, he would not have invaded except for getting the green light from the US first.  After the invasion the CIA showed pictures to the Saudi’s showing Iraqi tanks on the Saudi border waiting to invade Saudi Arabia.  They were faked, Hussein never wanted to invade Saudi Arabia because he knew that invading Saudi Arabia would cause a US response and he did not want war with the US.

  Hussein claimed the reason for the invasion was because Kuwait was side drilling into Iraq oil fields if you look at a world map Kuwait is no bigger then a flea on a dogs back as compared to Iraq, they have no oil reserves of their own.  He also claimed that Kuwait was the 13th province of Iraq and that it only had independence because England gave them independence after the second world war, and that it was Iraq’s right to reclaim that province.

  Now these were just justifications, the real reason Hussein invaded Kuwait was because it had racked up a huge war debt in it’s war with Iran which he considered to be a holy war.  All of the Sunni nations were giving him  loans, supplies and equipment to fight that war because they all considered Iran to be a threat to all of them.  And keep in mind the Iraq, Iran war started just after the Iranian embassy take over in which Americans were being held hostage.  I would assume the CIA had a hand in getting the Iraqi’s into declaring war.

  Hussein asked Kuwait to forgive Iraq it’s war debt.  Kuwait refused, and Hussein invaded them.  Kuwait supplied oil only to Japan, we had no treaties with them there was no reason for us to have gotten involved at all especially after giving the green light for him to invade.  And it was the CIA that had gotten Hussein into the weapons of mass destruction business, it was they who established the chemical weapons plants in Iraq during the Iran Iraq war so that Iran would not be able to over run Iraq which was a real fear at the time.

  Prior to the Gulf War of Bush the Father Bin Laden was not our enemy, prior to it Bin Laden had no interest in the United States his focus was on Israel not us.  If the first Gulf War had not happened then 9/11 would not have happened.
 

[G-Roll]

We create our own monsters,

yeah that about sums it up.
everything else is history basically. its the truth (i do recall some of it now) and for many americans it probably stings. but thats life. i dont see a treaty or cease fire in the near future. i cant imagine it would be possible to rid the world of islamic extremists either. so here we are...
what was this thread originally about anyway?  

[Mark L Holland]

LOL