What if Religions were never formed?

[eriellefae]

Hypothetically speaking, What if there were never organized religions? I'm asking this because I kind of thought from time to time that Religions were organized to help the majority of us from having wandering minds. I know that no matter which way humanity could have possibly turned, there would always be some sort of organized religions. But, what if there never was?

What if we were sitting here in the 21st century wandering what happened? How did we get here? Hypothetically speaking, The god theory had never been born. Where would our minds be?

... just a thought. I'm new here so hopefully it's okay to post things of this sort.

ETA*

I just wanted to add that I am saying "We" because no matter who you are, where you come from, or what you believe, we have all been affected by organized religions. I also wanted to add that I'm not trying to prove a point, or conspiring anything. I just thought it may be something interesting to think about.

[LoneMateria]

Have you seen the family guy episode Road to the Multiverse?  If not Stewie and Brian go to a universe where Christianity never existed.  I think that's how the world would most likey be without religion existing.  You should youtube it and see it if you havent.

[eriellefae]

No I haven't. I'll have to find it.

[SSY]

Well, as for what people are thinking, probably the same thing as most atheists an scientists think now. For most of us here, Christianity and the like is just a belief system held by others, there are not many tenants of Christian faith your typical atheist will value, they have not really brought much new stuff to the party.

On the other hand, I would be willing to bet science would be a lot further ahead, and all those churches could instead, have been purposed into buildings to help people, homeless shelters, clinics etc.

[eriellefae]

What about the Legal System? Do you think it would differ? Do you think that a lot of our moral values have come from Christianity? (Here in the U.S anyway).

While I am not a Christian, I think that Christianity may have helped us form a few values and traditions. Some of these I think were good, the others may have hurt us more than helped.

What about traditional Family roles? Do you think this developed from Christianity alone? The bible had a lot of polygamy going on but it seems like Christians were the ones that put a stop to all of this.

America's foundation was formed from Christianity. Things would have probably went in a different direction. But for the best or for the worst?

[Will]

I honestly don't know. So much of ancient culture is steeped in superstition and mythology, it's difficult to imagine things without it. I'm not sure it's possible for a curious and intelligent species to develop without superstition or belief in the supernatural. That said, it does seem natural that over time the role of the superstitions and religions in a population would become smaller and smaller as real, scientific knowledge grows.

[LoneMateria]

Are you a prank poster?  

Lets deal with this in order.

What about the Legal System? Do you think it would differ? Do you think that a lot of our moral values have come from Christianity? (Here in the U.S anyway).

Our morals values exist despite Christianity.  The bible advocates murder, genocide, slavery, incest and so on.  Our morals exist because we are social animals.  Social animals have a low tolerance for murder, stealing, incest and so on.  How hard do you think it would be for ancient man to see a person being killed and think, "I hope that doesn't happen to me we should not let this happen"?  Even the bibles 10 commandments are flawed at best.   The first 4 are just promoting God saying that capital offenses include making idols, having other gods, blasphemy, and working on the sabbath.  These are all capital offenses punishable by death btw.  Hmm first 4 are useless in todays law system.  Lets start with number 5 honor your mother and father.  Again if you don't thats a capital offense, another useless law in our society.  Number 6 don't kill.  Well there is a start but its very ill defined.  In context it really says don't kill your fellow Jew but lets ignore that for now.  This is not a black and white issue.  Is killing in genuine self defense wrong?  According to the bible it is.  How about if its something you can't control like someone jumps in front of your car?  Doesn't matter.  This is why our legal system has different definitions and offenses like involuntary manslaughter, 2nd degree murder, 1st degree murder etc.  So do not kill is useless in todays law, thats 6 useless so far.  Number 7 don't commit adultery.  Again not a factor in todays law.  You can cheat on your partner and it's not a crime.  Or if you are raped it's not a crime.  Number 8 do not steal.  Well what if its to feed your starving family?  Again another grey area and this offense is certainly not punishable by death.  So number 8 is not really part of the law either.  Number 9 don't covet your neighbors wife, (don't lust over her)  again not part of our law.  It's useless and certainly not a capital offense.  Which leaves us with number 10 don't covet your neighbors things.  So don't desire to have what your neighbor has.  Again not part of our law.  Nothing about them is part of the law nor are they the foundation for our law system.

While I am not a Christian, I think that Christianity may have helped us form a few values and traditions. Some of these I think were good, the others may have hurt us more than helped.

Can you please explain?  What values have Christianity given us that cannot be attained by secular means?

What about traditional Family roles? Do you think this developed from Christianity alone? The bible had a lot of polygamy going on but it seems like Christians were the ones that put a stop to all of this.

Christianities traditional family values?  Like polygamy?  How did Christians and their book put a stop to this?

America's foundation was formed from Christianity. Things would have probably went in a different direction. But for the best or for the worst?

[/quote]

And you are just plain wrong here.  America's foundation was on secular values.  In fact look up article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli.  As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; ... This was drafted by George Washington, signed into law by Thomas Jefferson, and the first bill to be unanimously voted on by congress.

[eriellefae]

Wow. Actually, I'm not a prank poster. I don't understand why you are getting so angry. I just thought it would be interesting to talk about it. The point of my thread was to really break down what Christianity has and has not done for us. That's all. I thought this forum was called "Happy Atheists" for a reason?  

It seems that you think I am a christian in disguise trying to reach out to the poor atheist community. Read my intro. I come in peace. I've just gotten past the Angry part of being a non believer and moved on to the roots of it. What is Christianity doing for us? Are they posing a threat? Are they helping the community? Just because something is thought to be untrue, does not make it a threat.

ETA- Good moral values? What about love thy neighbor? Christianity is all about love. Come on now, Give them some kind of credit. I'm not going to sit here and take up for Christians. But, I am a very honest person. I am honest with myself and with other people. Christians are not running around with knives killing everyone (well there are  a few but you know what I mean). Why must Christians be an enemy? I don't understand that...

[LoneMateria]

Wow. Actually, I'm not a prank poster. I don't understand why you are getting so angry. I just thought it would be interesting to talk about it. The point of my thread was to really break down what Christianity has and has not done for us. That's all. I thought this forum was called "Happy Atheists" for a reason?  

It seems that you think I am a christian in disguise trying to reach out to the poor atheist community. Read my intro. I come in peace. I've just gotten past the Angry part of being a non believer and moved on to the roots of it. What is Christianity doing for us? Are they posing a threat? Are they helping the community? Just because something is thought to be untrue, does not make it a threat.

Oh don't play the hurt card.  Your assertions are common amongst Christians.  And no where in my posts am I getting angry.  If I were i'd be taking shots at your personality like i've done with Aedus on other threads.  I'm simply stating what I see wrong with your assertions.

Now as for your questions.  What is Christianity doing for us?  Retarding science education for superstition, fighting against equal human rights, and trying to control the government just to name a few.  Are the Christians helping the community?  Thats the wrong question to ask.  The question should be: What are they doing to help the community that cannot be attained through secular means?  The answer is nothing.  I'm all for keeping the good and discarding the crap with religion.  They do charity work with the homeless and feed poor families.  But all of that can be done through secular means and is being done, just not with the same funding.  

Now for your final statement: Just because something is thought to be untrue, does not make it a threat.  You are right, it makes it a problem.  People choose to embrace fantasy instead of reality and it has real world consequences like not giving their children medicine and they end up dying.  Or praying for a miracle instead of seeking medical treatment.  Or exorcising demons from your babies head with a hammer.

I will admit religion will do some good but honestly if you find a candy bar in a pile of dung do you still eat it?

[eriellefae]

I'm sorry it just kind of came as a shocker. I AM new to this forum. I have also never been to an atheist forum before. I assumed that these were the type of conversations that went on. I was also trying to follow the rules. I think I remember seeing a rule about bashing religions. I didn't want to appear to be doing that. I agree that there isn't much good that Christians do on their own. I do however think that they have done some good. But yeah the dung thing....
I just wanted this topic to be a little unbiased.  You did make a great point.

However, Christianity has a lot of LOVE. That's my main point. A lot of Atheists tend to be angry. Although, it is probably anger for the Christians that are trying to force them to convert. and the Love that Christians put out there seems a little...

Wait a minute... What ARE we NOT allowed to say on this forum?

[Whitney]

I was also trying to follow the rules. I think I remember seeing a rule about bashing religions.

Bash all you want...what we don't allow is unwarranted personal attacks against other members; pointing out the problems with their religious beliefs is fair game.

To explain the assumption that you were a christian in disguise....we get quite a few people doing that.

[LoneMateria]

I'm sorry it just kind of came as a shocker. I AM new to this forum. I have also never been to an atheist forum before. I assumed that these were the type of conversations that went on. I was also trying to follow the rules. I think I remember seeing a rule about bashing religions. I didn't want to appear to be doing that. I agree that there isn't much good that Christians do on their own. I do however think that they have done some good. But yeah the dung thing....
I just wanted this topic to be a little unbiased. You did make a great point.

Don't worry about it.  It's my fault too.  I made a bad assumption and I came off as an ass.  Isn't the first time and it won't be the last ^_^.  We try not to bash religion but it's to the extent of just making fun of it and talking smack about it.  However we don't avoid the crap that lead the majority of us away from it.  All the stuff I said in the previous post including hitting babies in the head to exorcise them is true.  There are things about a religions that irk us however we do our best to be civil about it and the moderators and the admin can tell when someone is stepping over the line.  We don't like getting preached to or preaching (it happens on both sides) so we are a bit stiff about it.  Other then that though there isn't much to worry about as long as we all keep the conversation as civil as possible.

I'm glad you chose this forum as your first.  This was my 2nd forum but it had a more active, nicer community then my previous one so I joined here.  We get a lot of spam and trolls here so when I see someone posting like that I tend to err on the side of caution as do most.  The community here is diverse and great.  We all aren't atheists we have a theist moderator and a few theists that pop in from time to time.  We actively try to promote discussion so don't hesitate to ask us anything.

However, Christianity has a lot of LOVE. That's my main point. A lot of Atheists tend to be angry. Although, it is probably anger for the Christians that are trying to force them to convert. and the Love that Christians put out there seems a little...

Wait a minute... What ARE we NOT allowed to say on this forum?

Maybe you haven't seen the right bunch of atheists.  Christianity has a lot of love and a lot more hate.  It is a very divisive religion and it actively promotes an us vs. them mentality and will stoop to any level to say what it wants and hide under the flag of freedom of religion.  I cite Fred Phelps and his Klan as proof of this.  Asshats picket fallen military funerals and gay peoples funerals with their unimaginative slogan "God hates fags".  The love that Christianity gives by the way seems so conditional.  They will love you as long as you agree with everything they say.

You can say whats on your mind just remember to be civil.  Thats pretty much all we ask.

Also since you seem to be new to atheism I recommend a t.v. show called the atheist experience (link is in my siggie).  It's a live call-in show where they ask viewers to call and tell them what they believe and why.   They get a ton of different calls.  But go back through the archive a bit perhaps to a year or two ago and go from there (shows been on like 12 years).  If you like that or want a little more religion bashing they also host a bi-weekly ... okay its been a few months but its supposed to be a bi-weekly internet audio program called the non-prophets whose link is also in my siggie.  

Remember when you ask a question you are a fool for a minute but if you don't ask the question you are a fool for life.  Don't be afraid of questions we will do our best to answer them.

[SSY]

Christianity is all about LOVE? What a load of tosh, Christianity basically comes down to

"Do everything I say, or burn in hell", not really very loving. Just bandying the Word Love around does not change anything. "Do as I say, or you will Burn in Hell, because I love you. Kneel down and Worship me, because I love you etc etc etc" is not really a convincing argument. Are Christians really more loving? I would say, no.

Also, your point about "Christians are not running around with knives killing everyone" is not exactly true, many children are tortured to death in exorcisms performed by priests, and also implies there is a contrast between Christians and other groups, to which group might your assumption allude?

[eriellefae]

However, Christianity has a lot of LOVE. That's my main point. A lot of Atheists tend to be angry. Although, it is probably anger for the Christians that are trying to force them to convert. and the Love that Christians put out there seems a little...

Wait a minute... What ARE we NOT allowed to say on this forum?

Maybe you haven't seen the right bunch of atheists.  Christianity has a lot of love and a lot more hate.  It is a very divisive religion and it actively promotes an us vs. them mentality and will stoop to any level to say what it wants and hide under the flag of freedom of religion.  I cite Fred Phelps and his Klan as proof of this.  Asshats picket fallen military funerals and gay peoples funerals with their unimaginative slogan "God hates fags".  The love that Christianity gives by the way seems so conditional.  They will love you as long as you agree with everything they say.

You can say whats on your mind just remember to be civil.  Thats pretty much all we ask.

Also since you seem to be new to atheism I recommend a t.v. show called the atheist experience (link is in my siggie).  It's a live call-in show where they ask viewers to call and tell them what they believe and why.   They get a ton of different calls.  But go back through the archive a bit perhaps to a year or two ago and go from there (shows been on like 12 years).  If you like that or want a little more religion bashing they also host a bi-weekly ... okay its been a few months but its supposed to be a bi-weekly internet audio program called the non-prophets whose link is also in my siggie.  

Remember when you ask a question you are a fool for a minute but if you don't ask the question you are a fool for life.  Don't be afraid of questions we will do our best to answer them.

I'm not new to atheism, but I am new to discussing it. I've kept my thoughts to myself for a while. That was exactly what I was going to say about the love that Christianity gives. I was also going to add that it almost seems  a little silly. I mean, if you have ever had a Christian friend or family member, they tend to overly love you, care about you etc. It's like they have a list of things that they are supposed to care about. I don't know... it's hard to explain.

The reason I was trying to find some good in them was because I actually have  family that are Christians. I go to church with them here and there. I do it so they will accept me (In laws). So, I guess part of this thread was to help me find a balance.

I want to add more but I don't really have a whole lot of time right now. Thanks for responding. I'll post more soon.

[LoneMateria]

I'm not new to atheism, but I am new to discussing it. I've kept my thoughts to myself for a while. That was exactly what I was going to say about the love that Christianity gives. I was also going to add that it almost seems  a little silly. I mean, if you have ever had a Christian friend or family member, they tend to overly love you, care about you etc. It's like they have a list of things that they are supposed to care about. I don't know... it's hard to explain.

It's not hard to explain it's just hard coming up with a good comparison.  Christian love is conditional, hollow, fake, tentative, twisted, indignant, and more words then I can currently think of.  If you love someone because they are a Christian then these words describe that connection.  

The reason I was trying to find some good in them was because I actually have  family that are Christians. I go to church with them here and there. I do it so they will accept me (In laws). So, I guess part of this thread was to help me find a balance.

I want to add more but I don't really have a whole lot of time right now. Thanks for responding. I'll post more soon.

Most of us have family members who are Christian.  There are no clear defined answers or ways to have them accept you.  I take it your significant other knows of your atheism?  Don't underestimate the stigmas associated with atheism.  You can never guess someones reaction to this.  Some people will surprise you.