Question for Theists

Renegnicat · September 30, 2009, 05:28:19 PM

First off, let me say that I am not too familiar with american christianity. But I have a question: I've often heard that god loves us so much, that he wants us to love him back without being forced to by his omnipotence. Hence his bestowment of free will.

What I don't understand is why showing himself to his people would automatically force them to love him unconditionally. It's like wanting a woman to love you, but not telling her anything about yourself. She knows nothing at all about you, except a marriage acceptance number to call and the promise that you "love her unconditionially".

Would any sane woman ever choose to love someone that they had no knowledge of? It doesn't make sense at all. It doesn't matter if anyone loves us unconditionally or not, if you're going to get into a relationship, you usually want to know about the person your getting into a relationship with before you declare undying love to them.

But if god showed himself to us, all that would mean is that we would get to see him in all his entirety. If we decided that such a god was worthy of being loved unconditionally, isn't that still our free will to decide? Thus, god showing himself to us won't force us to have faith and love him.

Another thing: Theists say that god doesn't always answer prayers, for whatever reason he might have. Ok, but statistically, he should still answers prayers some of the time. If we don't know which prayers he will answer and how often, shouldn't we still try to test him on the off occasion that he should decide to answer our prayers?

Again, if the prayer is so that he would prove his existence, why wouldn't he do it? It's not going to force us to love him, and the requirement of faith seems a little arbitrary, no?

LoneMateria · September 30, 2009, 09:12:00 PM

Quote from: "Renegnicat"First off, let me say that I am not too familiar with american christianity.

Can you define American Christianity please. Cause I don't know what you are talking about.

Now about the rest of the post. The simple bullshit response i'd expect from a theist is that you must take it on faith. Either that or the other classic its gods will it must make sense in the long run. I wouldn't expect much more from a theist, maybe a slightly longer explanation but it will probably be one of those punch lines.

Renegnicat · September 30, 2009, 09:38:32 PM

QuoteCan you define American Christianity please. Cause I don't know what you are talking about.

Really, now? I'm sorry, I had assumed that there was a definition that all christians held in common. You know, the "official" dogma of christianity. Really? There isn't?

wow. :crazy:

LoneMateria · September 30, 2009, 11:17:50 PM

I can't tell if that is sarcasm or not lol

. If you aren't being sarcastic then there are like 30,000 different denominations of Christianity and if you put their leaders all in a room together you wouldn't be able to get them to agree on one thing. When you are referring to "American Christianity" are you referring to Evangelism and fundamentalism?

Tanker · October 01, 2009, 03:19:26 AM

No really. What the hell is "American Chrisitanity"? That's a new one on me too.

LoneMateria · October 01, 2009, 04:49:21 AM

Quote from: "Tanker"No really. What the hell is "American Chrisitanity"? That's a new one on me too.

Glad i'm not the only one. lol

Reginus · October 02, 2009, 01:37:58 AM

Quote from: "Renegnicat"First off, let me say that I am not too familiar with american christianity. But I have a question: I've often heard that god loves us so much, that he wants us to love him back without being forced to by his omnipotence. Hence his bestowment of free will.

What I don't understand is why showing himself to his people would automatically force them to love him unconditionally. It's like wanting a woman to love you, but not telling her anything about yourself. She knows nothing at all about you, except a marriage acceptance number to call and the promise that you "love her unconditionially".

Would any sane woman ever choose to love someone that they had no knowledge of? It doesn't make sense at all. It doesn't matter if anyone loves us unconditionally or not, if you're going to get into a relationship, you usually want to know about the person your getting into a relationship with before you declare undying love to them.

But if god showed himself to us, all that would mean is that we would get to see him in all his entirety. If we decided that such a god was worthy of being loved unconditionally, isn't that still our free will to decide? Thus, god showing himself to us won't force us to have faith and love him.

Another thing: Theists say that god doesn't always answer prayers, for whatever reason he might have. Ok, but statistically, he should still answers prayers some of the time. If we don't know which prayers he will answer and how often, shouldn't we still try to test him on the off occasion that he should decide to answer our prayers?

Again, if the prayer is so that he would prove his existence, why wouldn't he do it? It's not going to force us to love him, and the requirement of faith seems a little arbitrary, no?

Evangelicals hold that God did show him self to us in the form of Jesus. However, I'm guessing that you mean something more like "why doesn't God just write 'I am the lord, believe in me' in the clouds?" Well, according to the OT, this is sort of the type of thing that God actually did thousands of years ago. Guess what? It didn't work and people turned away from him. Think about it, would you love or want to follow God any more if he spelled it out in the clouds?

Ultima22689 · October 02, 2009, 02:35:39 AM

Quote from: "Reginus"
Quote from: "Renegnicat"First off, let me say that I am not too familiar with american christianity. But I have a question: I've often heard that god loves us so much, that he wants us to love him back without being forced to by his omnipotence. Hence his bestowment of free will.

What I don't understand is why showing himself to his people would automatically force them to love him unconditionally. It's like wanting a woman to love you, but not telling her anything about yourself. She knows nothing at all about you, except a marriage acceptance number to call and the promise that you "love her unconditionially".

Would any sane woman ever choose to love someone that they had no knowledge of? It doesn't make sense at all. It doesn't matter if anyone loves us unconditionally or not, if you're going to get into a relationship, you usually want to know about the person your getting into a relationship with before you declare undying love to them.

But if god showed himself to us, all that would mean is that we would get to see him in all his entirety. If we decided that such a god was worthy of being loved unconditionally, isn't that still our free will to decide? Thus, god showing himself to us won't force us to have faith and love him.

Another thing: Theists say that god doesn't always answer prayers, for whatever reason he might have. Ok, but statistically, he should still answers prayers some of the time. If we don't know which prayers he will answer and how often, shouldn't we still try to test him on the off occasion that he should decide to answer our prayers?

Again, if the prayer is so that he would prove his existence, why wouldn't he do it? It's not going to force us to love him, and the requirement of faith seems a little arbitrary, no?

Evangelicals hold that God did show him self to us in the form of Jesus. However, I'm guessing that you mean something more like "why doesn't God just write 'I am the lord, believe in me' in the clouds?" Well, according to the OT, this is sort of the type of thing that God actually did thousands of years ago. Guess what? It didn't work and people turned away from him. Think about it, would you love or want to follow God any more if he spelled it out in the clouds?

If God made it clear he existed it would most certainly be a start.

Renegnicat · October 04, 2009, 07:42:07 PM

No, I wasn't being sarcastic. However, as an ex-christian myself, I don't think I can be blamed too much for thinking that there is one 'american christianity' and all.

hmm... live and learn.

Also, I'm not too familiar with either evangelism or fundamentalism. What's the difference between the two?

Reginus · October 05, 2009, 01:50:13 AM

Quote from: "Renegnicat"No, I wasn't being sarcastic. However, as an ex-christian myself, I don't think I can be blamed too much for thinking that there is one 'american christianity' and all.

hmm... live and learn.

Also, I'm not too familiar with either evangelism or fundamentalism. What's the difference between the two?

Fundamentalism is the strict adherence to principals and/or law. Christian fundamentalists generally have a very literal interpretation of the Bible. On one extreme side of the spectrum, you have some Christian fundamentalists who believe the Earth is 6,000 years old, and on the other side, you have some liberals who believe the Bible is a set of made up stories (who are apparently Christians because they think the ideas about how we should live, ect. in the Bible have truth to them).

Evangelicalism (different from evangelism) is basically Protestant Christianity with an emphasis on being "born-again."

AlP · October 05, 2009, 02:08:04 AM

Quote from: "Reginus"Evangelicalism (different from evangelism) is basically Protestant Christianity with an emphasis on being "born-again."

On the topic of what changes have been made to the bible on the other thread... A quick glance at the wikipedia page for "born again" shows that some scholars think a more accurate translation from the original Greek is "born from above".

LoneMateria · October 05, 2009, 04:02:32 AM

Quote from: "AlP"
Quote from: "Reginus"Evangelicalism (different from evangelism) is basically Protestant Christianity with an emphasis on being "born-again."
On the topic of what changes have been made to the bible on the other thread... A quick glance at the wikipedia page for "born again" shows that some scholars think a more accurate translation from the original Greek is "born from above".

Very interesting I didn't know that.

Quote from: "Renegnicat"No, I wasn't being sarcastic. However, as an ex-christian myself, I don't think I can be blamed too much for thinking that there is one 'american christianity' and all.

I'm not blaming you for anything. I'm just trying to clear up confusion. I'm still unsure exactly what "American Christianity" means. It doesn't seem to refer to fundamentalism or evangelism which were my first guesses. This is part of the reason why conversations about religion can be so difficult (and why we atheists are sometimes anal about definitions). No one has the same definition of their religion, about gods, or about Jesus. Everyones interpretation is somewhat different and when you assume someones definition matches your own it will often bring problems to the conversation. Keep this in mind Renegnicat it will help you in discussions to come ^_^.

Not only will assuming you have the same definition for a term sometimes make you look stupid, but this also has the potential to act like a red herring during debates and discussions. Anyway what exactly do you define as "American Christianity"?

Ultima22689 · October 05, 2009, 05:27:05 PM

This is just a guess but I think it might have something to do with how America is typically very conservative when compared to other countries so I think American Christianity may refer to the hardcore bible thumpers out there, the anti-gay sentiments and the typical stuff that tends to be the stereotype of a bible thumper in America. It is all you see on TV these days when they show Christians on TV. Once again we can thank Fox news for that.

andrewclunn · October 05, 2009, 06:42:58 PM

Woah, woah. No need to make this political.. Let's keep that stuff out of this purely theological topic.

Ultima22689 · October 05, 2009, 07:24:19 PM

Quote from: "andrewclunn"Woah, woah. No need to make this political.. Let's keep that stuff out of this purely theological topic.

What? I didn't say anything political, are you referring to Fox News? Well they air the fringe, that's all i'm pointing out and because it's news that is what other countries will see for the most part hence the phrase "American Christianity".

News:

Question for Theists