Health and Social Darwinism (Split Topic)

[Brizz]

This thread is about paganism but we're talking about poor people being poor, evolution and it's about to turn into a debate about health care reform  

If you want to argue an issue, start a new thread! This is about paganism.

I know you guys want to hear more about my social theories....I'll make a new thread for that later.

[Whitney]

This thread is about paganism but we're talking about poor people being poor, evolution and it's about to turn into a debate about health care reform  

If you want to argue an issue, start a new thread! This is about paganism.

I know you guys want to hear more about my social theories....I'll make a new thread for that later.

I split off from Kylyssa's post which responded about social darwinism...the paganism thread is about paganism (and views of atheism) now.

[Brizz]

Alright sweet.

So....do you guys like supporting an entire underclass of people with your tax dollars?

[Whitney]

So....do you guys like supporting an entire underclass of people with your tax dollars?

Could you be less abrasive with your wording?

I think a few of us have already established that we don't think someone is worthless just because they are down on their luck and/or have a less desireable job and that it is not easy (in the USA) to move up from that position since they are barely paid enough to survive.

[iNow]

Alright sweet.

So....do you guys like supporting an entire underclass of people with your tax dollars?

What you seem to miss is a clear understanding of the current system in the US, as we are already supporting people who are uninsured with our own money.  Those who are uninsured miss early attempts at detection and treatment... attempts at detection and treatment which would be very low cost and very high efficacy.  They then continue to get sicker and sicker as a result of not receiving care, and more often than not wind up in the emergency room seeking catastrophic care as a last resort... but, despite having no other options and seeking the last resort of catastrophic care at the Emergency Room, they have no coverage and no means of paying for the treatments which costs thousands (and sometimes hundreds of thousands) of dollars.  

Those unpaid costs to the ER get absorbed by the insurance companies who raise premiums on the rest of us... So, in fact, we ALREADY pay for uninsured people with our own dollars.  The point is that... through a few minor changes to the system... we can cover everybody at lower personal costs to each of us, and put a greater focus on prevention than on catastrophic treatment, and do so for everyone in the nation regardless of wealth or privilege.

In sum, your comment shows a blaring ignorance of the current setup, as well as a misunderstanding of how the proposed changes actually make the individual costs to each of us LOWER.

Enjoy.

[Brizz]

What you seem to miss is a clear understanding of the current system in the US, as we are already supporting people who are uninsured with our own money.  Those who are uninsured miss early attempts at detection and treatment... attempts at detection and treatment which would be very low cost and very high efficacy.  They then continue to get sicker and sicker as a result of not receiving care, and more often than not wind up in the emergency room seeking catastrophic care as a last resort... but, despite having no other options and seeking the last resort of catastrophic care at the Emergency Room, they have no coverage and no means of paying for the treatments which costs thousands (and sometimes hundreds of thousands) of dollars.  

Those unpaid costs to the ER get absorbed by the insurance companies who raise premiums on the rest of us... So, in fact, we ALREADY pay for uninsured people with our own dollars.  The point is that... through a few minor changes to the system... we can cover everybody at lower personal costs to each of us, and put a greater focus on prevention than on catastrophic treatment, and do so for everyone in the nation regardless of wealth or privilege.

In sum, your comment shows a blaring ignorance of the current setup, as well as a misunderstanding of how the proposed changes actually make the individual costs to each of us LOWER.

Enjoy.

What you seem to miss is...that I'm talking about WELFARE. As a Canadian I really, really, reallllllllllly don't give a shit about healthcare.

[Brizz]

it is not easy (in the USA) to move up from that position since they are barely paid enough to survive.

I didn't uh....I'm sorry. I'm used to being around hard-working, hard-fighting men and women. That sentence infuriates me for many reasons. The most Capitalistic country I can think of is the USA. That means that it is the EASIEST country in the world for the poor to rise up. I (and many of the most successful people I know) were raised poor...that just made us hungry. When we saw an opportunity to make money we snatched it and fucking made money. To think someone with Western citizenship cannot bring themselves out of poverty is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.

[Whitney]

What you seem to miss is...that I'm talking about WELFARE. As a Canadian I really, really, reallllllllllly don't give a shit about healthcare.

Health affects one's ability to work...you can't really talk about the need for Welfare in the US without discussing health care.

[curiosityandthecat]

I didn't uh....I'm sorry. I'm used to being around hard-working, hard-fighting men and women. That sentence infuriates me for many reasons. The most Capitalistic country I can think of is the USA. That means that it is the EASIEST country in the world for the poor to rise up. I (and many of the most successful people I know) were raised poor...that just made us hungry. When we saw an opportunity to make money we snatched it and fucking made money. To think someone with Western citizenship cannot bring themselves out of poverty is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.

You have a very simplistic idea of the actual manifestation of capitalism in the United States.

[Brizz]

[Brizz]

I thought you guys were supposed to be rational.....

[Reginus]

I thought you guys were supposed to be rational.....

Are you talking about American politicians or people on this forum?

[karadan]

There is a benefit black hole which swallows billions a year in the UK. We have major issues with fraud, inefficiency and policy malfunctions. There are women who get paid thousands a month to care for several children. They will then be given a huge house for free. Many of these women bring up their children in the knowledge that they will never have to work in order to have a cosy life. All they'll have to do is open their legs to 6 different men and the tax payer will take care of the rest. This problem is real and I simply do not have an answer for it. The fascist in me says neuter them. The humanist in me says educate them. It isn't a good situation but it is simply a byproduct of a system which is there, initially, to help people in need. Of all the people who get deserving and legitimate help from the benefit system, the people who abuse it probably only represent one percent of the total (I don't know that for sure but I'd be surprised if it was much more).

There are 35 people working in the benefit fraud office a few buildings down from where I work. They catch thousands of people a year and that is just for the Cambridgeshire area (I work for the council). Many of the people caught are illegal immigrants. They are deported immediately. The UK citizens who are caught go straight to jail. The penalties are enormous but that doesn't seem to deter the people really determined to screw the system. It is a problem I have no simple answer for.

I recently had an argument with an ignorant religious idiot in an online game I play (he is from S. Carolina somewhere). His reasoning for the above issue was to take away all benefits and let everyone who can't work starve to death... Because apparently they should all just get a god damn job. The amount of unemployed people in the US runs in the millions. I guess the issue of five million rioting people was lost on this guy, not to mention his blatant lack of empathy for his fellow human. This guy called himself a christian too...  
He was obviously an aberration but there are a lot of radical idiots out there who feel the same way. I'm just glad they are not in charge. Your views seem to be boardering this kind of radicalism, Brizz.

From some of the comments in this thread I'm actually rather relieved I benefit from the NHS. I've been to an emergency ward twice in my life. I've had a minor operation once before. Luckily I'm rather healthy but if anything untoward did happen to me, I wouldn't have to worry one little bit. I'd be taken to Addenbrokes and treated until healthy. I've used benefits for approximately 1 month during my adult life. I attribute that to the education I received. My qualifications mean employers want to employ me. I got these qualifications because I went to a good school in a good area. I was lucky. Other people aren't so lucky. People brought up in broken homes without the benefit of real love from parent(s) whilst living in poverty are statistically more likely to become criminals. Society has failed them in my opinion. They were born without a chance in life. Is it then any wonder they resort to cheating a system set up to help the most needy?

So, in conclusion, the benefit system is there to help people because we live in an advanced society which (hopefully) cares for its citizens. Yes, there are loopholes, fraudsters and cheats but isn't that the same with almost every walk of life? We just have to work to educate the masses and reform society so the proportion of the criminal element stays low. Education must be the key, surely.

[Brizz]

You have a very simplistic idea of the actual manifestation of capitalism in the United States.

I was raised on bread and balogne.....I know what I'm talking about.

[Brizz]

There is a benefit black hole which swallows billions a year in the UK. We have major issues with fraud, inefficiency and policy malfunctions. There are women who get paid thousands a month to care for several children. They will then be given a huge house for free. Many of these women bring up their children in the knowledge that they will never have to work in order to have a cosy life. All they'll have to do is open their legs to 6 different men and the tax payer will take care of the rest. This problem is real and I simply do not have an answer for it. The fascist in me says neuter them.

 

The humanist in me says educate them. It isn't a good situation but it is simply a byproduct of a system which is there, initially, to help people in need. Of all the people who get deserving and legitimate help from the benefit system, the people who abuse it probably only represent one percent of the total (I don't know that for sure but I'd be surprised if it was much more).

I like Reaganomics. It seemed mean at the time but it was very good overall.