No Self-less acts?

[Hollownucleus]

Before I turned away from Christianity I would often day-dream of rescuing people in danger or dying to save other people.
My day-dreams would always consist of me being the hero and after I died, or narrowly lived I would be celebrated as a great person and a hero.

Pretty corny I know. But now that I have become an Atheist I find no pleasure from these scenarios.
As I have searched my feelings on the matter I see no reason to risk my life for anyone now, even my own family.
If death is it and there is nothing to gain from dying then why risk it for someone else if I am not going to live to see them carry on?

I also realized the only reason I used to want to be in those scenarios is because I would be remembered as a hero and not to actually save someone's life.

So that brought up a bigger question. Are there any real self-less acts?
Everything I do, I do because it benefits me in someway.
Even if I were to go to homeless shelter and help serve food I would be doing it for the feeling it gives me.
If I were to give a hobo money it would be to think I am helping somebody in need.

So, are there no self-less acts?  Are we all just a bunch of selfish a-holes?

[Will]

The act of giving one's life becomes a great deal more meaningful when one doesn't believe in an afterlife, from my own perspective. I would sacrifice my life for a family member, friend, or a cause I found to be noble. Why? It would please me to know in my dying moment that my death has met with my own subjective understanding of meaning. It's not necessarily done for the moment after I die, but for that moment as I die.

Also, if I give my life at 25 I'll never ever have to have a proctology appointment, so that's a bonus.

Selfishness is sometimes given a bad rap. If you're being selfish but not harming others it's fine. I'm selfish all the time, as are all people pretty much all the time. What matters is that while being selfish you still adhere to laws and the social contract. You can't selfishly murder your jerk boss because you'll be arrested and put in prison or sentenced to death. Besides, you know that killing your boss isn't the proper way to deal with your feelings toward him or her. If you selfishly stand up to your boss so that your work environment improves, you're doing the most constructive thing. You see my point?

[Sophus]

Everybody acts for a reason thus every act is selfish. Sometimes people desire the tangible or more obviously selfish things, other times it's to fulfill a personal virtue. No one can escape selfishness, it's just how we are. Even if you're considerate of others or not, you're still selfish. Ayn Rand wrote about Selfishness As A Virtue if you're interested. Some of her sayings:

Before one can learn to say, "I love you," one must first learn how to say the "I."

I swear by my life, and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.

[ilovegodalot]

I agree so much.

Praise the Lord!  

[Sophus]

I agree so much.

Praise the Lord!  :hide2:

[ilovegodalot]

No, it means people need to improve on their life.

[Rooker]

Most people who have put themselves into danger to help someone else will tell you they didn't stop to think about it, they just started moving. From experience I can say that's true.

[Sophus]

Most people who have put themselves into danger to help someone else will tell you they didn't stop to think about it, they just started moving. From experience I can say that's true.

Even that would be done from will though. Noble, yes. Selfless, no. There's nothing wrong with selfishness, it just has a bad reputation.

[AlP]

I've been thinking some about this recently. I think it's pride. We do selfless things because we want respect, perhaps even if it kills us. The more I think about it the more it makes sense.

[Sophus]

I've been thinking some about this recently. I think it's pride. We do selfless things because we want respect, perhaps even if it kills us. The more I think about it the more it makes sense.

True. In more general terms I would say we're all in a pursuit for power (ha ha, can you tell I'm a Nietzsche fanatic yet?). Some pursue it through virtue, others pursue it via happiness (power over the undesirable aspects of life). Whether it be love, righteousness, wealth, pride or humility: those who seek it claim their is power in their will.

[Kylyssa]

I think we do selfless things for what we don't want, too.  Such as, somewhere in the back of your mind, you know you'd hate yourself if you stood by and watched someone die when you could have prevented it.  I think some of it is instinct, too.

[AlP]

I've been thinking some about this recently. I think it's pride. We do selfless things because we want respect, perhaps even if it kills us. The more I think about it the more it makes sense.

True. In more general terms I would say we're all in a pursuit for power (ha ha, can you tell I'm a Nietzsche fanatic yet?). Some pursue it through virtue, others pursue it via happiness (power over the undesirable aspects of life). Whether it be love, righteousness, wealth, pride or humility: those who seek it claim their is power in their will.

Yeah I agree with much of Nietzsche's thinking in that regard, though I think he was often guilty of rhetoric and there is a danger of being carried away by that. Example: "God is dead!" He didn't mean God died. He meant there are no objective values. Here God is just a metaphor for objective values. I know you know that already Sophus =). I just feel a need to qualify my statement that I agree with much of Nietzsche's thinking. Read Sartre and we'll see how the will to power holds up =).

I think we do selfless things for what we don't want, too. Such as, somewhere in the back of your mind, you know you'd hate yourself if you stood by and watched someone die when you could have prevented it. I think some of it is instinct, too.

I agree. I call that pride =). Somebody just posted a video on youtube that explains the idea much better than I could.

[youtube:19tf9cj9]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD5JCNCBrFk[/youtube:19tf9cj9]

[Sophus]

Yeah I agree with much of Nietzsche's thinking in that regard, though I think he was often guilty of rhetoric and there is a danger of being carried away by that. Example: "God is dead!" He didn't mean God died. He meant there are no objective values. Here God is just a metaphor for objective values. I know you know that already Sophus =). I just feel a need to qualify my statement that I agree with much of Nietzsche's thinking. Read Sartre and we'll see how the will to power holds up =).

Right. Nietzsche was more of a prose writer and a poet. He often spoke in metaphors and parables. In fact he said he was "ashamed" that he became a poet. In other words, he felt the need to write only because of the richness and fresh quality of his thoughts. I don't think his style invalidates his thoughts at all, but rather I prefer it as it requires us to think more about them, thus gain a greater comprehension that goes beyond words.... if that makes sense  

I think we do selfless things for what we don't want, too. Such as, somewhere in the back of your mind, you know you'd hate yourself if you stood by and watched someone die when you could have prevented it. I think some of it is instinct, too.

I agree. I call that pride =). Somebody just posted a video on youtube that explains the idea much better than I could.

I actually don't. Acts such as that I would call "considerate" or an act to avoid an undesirable outcome, but not selfless. You can never do something selfless because you willed it. If someone holds a gun to your head and tells you to do something, you'll still want to do that something over being shot. There's still something in it for you. If you take the bullet then you do so to die with your virtue or dignity.

[Invidy]

So you consider conforming to your code of ethics as providing a benefit for yourself?  If someone sacrifices their life for another person, I don't care what excuses you give, aside from the person thinking that they will be rewarded in the afterlife, they have committed a self-less act.

In terms of demonstrable benefits the only one who benefits would be the person whose life was saved.

They have put another person's needs above their own.

I'm not a philosopher, I haven't studied philosophy either, so unfortunately I can't look to prior philosophical giants for all the retorts to my response, but it seems that just because you gain "something" that doesn't make it a selfish act so long as the reason you are performing the act is to help another person at a cost to yourself (or at least so long as the intent isn't to gain some type of benefit for yourself).

[curiosityandthecat]

Self-less acts are a result of human imagination and a sense of the romantic.

Also, two points to Will for seeing the silver lining.