Forced Fatherhood.

[Guest]

To clarify, under my proposed system.

Both want a kid, great go for it.
Both dont want a kid, fine, dont go for it.
Man wants, women doesn't, tough luck buddy, you cant have your baby.
Woman wants, man does not, fine, but dont expect the man to pay for your choices.

I think you might have something there, but I was just wondering about different problematic situations. How about people who do not realize that they are pregnant until long after the proper final date to abort? I've even heard about women coming to a hospital because of stomach aches and realize they are having contractions and need to deliver! This is a borderline case of course, but I would think that there are a certain amount of pregnancies that are noticed after the time that society (and I at least) thinks it is no longer an option to abort. It would surely be unreasonable to land these babies solely to the responsibility of women.

Also, I would think that people may make a deal of not keeping a possible baby, and about a possible abortion, but later on feel that it is too much to go through and decide not to abort. While this should be taken into account, I think it still is not right to needlessly burden the forced father to pay huge amounts of money for kid he did not want. Maybe a lower payment, in recognition of the pact that was reached earlier and then later broken?

But how would this pact be executed? Written agreement with witnesses every time sex occurs? I don't know.. Maybe it would be okay to create a new social pact, that it is the default option to abort if casual sex between adults happens. I don't know, seems to bring forth a whole lot of problems this universal human right not to have unwanted children.

[Ihateyoumike]

Wow, I can't believe I'm about to say this but after reading through this entire thread, I've come to the realization of how little I care about this topic as it is being discussed.
My take on it is that men and women are both (mostly) idiots when it comes to our reproductive ability. Yes, clearly both are to blame in every situation of an unwanted (by either parent) pregnancy.
This may seem heartless, but until it happens to me (which I take great pains to avoid including, believe it or not, refusing sex if the girl doesn't want me to use a condom) I really couldn't care less about this topic.

I agree with SSY's original point of it's not fair to the father who does not have any say in what happens after pregnancy. I also agree with some of the female posters here who say "suck it up, life isn't fair" in not so many words. Since I cannot find a reasonable solution to address this situation, I'm doing what comes naturally to most people and thinking of how it affects me. The fact is that it doesn't. I've known guys who've been screwed into paying child support when they clearly should not have to. I've known women who have been stuck with deadbeat fathers who completely disown them and provide no financial or emotional support to the child. It pisses me off, but not for any of the reasons stated thusfar.

What I think alot of folks, on both sides of this debate, forget about is the child. They are the ones truly being hurt by these situations.

So maybe if everybody stopped worrying so much about how sad it is for them how the choices they've made effect themselves, maybe they could start worrying about how the hell are they going to make this a better place for the children whom they've brought (intentionally or otherwise) into this world.

Let me tell you, if I ever knock a chick up and she decides to keep the child although I push for adoption or abortion, I'll be upset about it. But I would do what is right for the child, not for myself.

Just my $0.02.

[hismikeness]

Let me tell you, if I ever knock a chick up and she decides to keep the child although I push for adoption or abortion, I'll be upset about it.

But what if she decides to name the child Mike? Would you hate it? Cause that would suck.

Oh wait, no, that would be awesome.

Boom.

[jrosebud]

[

Easy as pie in that particular case. But regarding adoption in general, the mother is never faced with a situation wherby she goes upto the state, says " I want to get rid of my baby" and the state say "NO" or "Ok, but we are going to bleed you dry with child support payments". She has a way of absolving herself of responsibility that the man does not, this is my main point of contention.

Actually this does happen, I have a 17 (almost) year old at home now that is evidence of the fact that if the father says no to adoption you have no choice.  He does not even have to say "No, I want it" all he has to say is "No, I won't agree to it."

(I haven't read the whole thread - it's bedtime - but I wanted to comment.)

I do think the laws as they are quite sexist and unfair.  (And I'm a girl.)

It takes two people to make a baby (in the old-fashioned way, anyhow), so both should shoulder an equal burden in the financial responsibility of the child's future if they choose to remain its parents.

Easy answer: change the laws.  If a mother wants to give a child up for adoption and the man doesn't want to lose his rights, he must raise the child himself.  If he gives up his rights, he's free of obligation, but also of any say over what happens to the child.  If he wants to be in the child's life in any manner (without having custody), he must pay child support.  The same rules apply to the mother.  Easy-peasy.

What happens when a man wants the child, but the mom wants to abort - no easy answers there.

As for it being unfair to the tax-payer - that's the price for being a part of a society that takes care of those who can't support themselves.  We can improve the welfare laws and try to make the system better in other ways, but keeping such sexist laws on the books just for the sake of saving a buck - that's not right.

[LovingLife]

Let me try to shed some more light on the situation.

Abortion - is solely a woman's problem and responsibility as well as a completely separate issue.  The issue is not about whether or not to have a child that they do not want, it is about whether or not said "child"/embryo/fetus may use her body against her will or not.  Since no person, born, alive or otherwise has the right to use anyone else's body against their consent regardless of reason, even to save their own life, the issue is that the mother has the right to deny the use of her body and have the embryo/fetus removed from her organs.  In the cases of pregnancy, since it is a condition that only a woman faces and it only effects her body, she is the sole decider as well as the sole responsible one to pay for either option, ie to have an abortion (which is not free) or to give birth (which on average for healthy no complications roughly around $10,000 )  Men are not responsible for paying for either option.

On the issue of CHILD support -  This is not the mothers rights to get money from the father, or vice versa.  This is the right of the CHILD to have parental support in his upbringing and the cost of said upbringing.  If a father neglects the physical responsibility of an actual child that is alive, born and has physical needs with financial costs, then he must pay a small portion of those costs, that the MOTHER is also covering.  A physical parent pays for the house, the car to transport, the bills to heat, shelter, feed, clothes, bath, babysitters, as well as work.  The mother covers this (if she has custody).  You think $250 a month covers even diapers for that time period?  Regardless.  Should the FATHER be the physical parent, the MOTHER is required to cover a portion of the financial responsibilities to the child for its care.  Should NEITHER parent be the physical guardian, NEITHER has to pay child support, this is the case of adoption in which both parties give up their parential obligations and rights, and the child is assigned new guardians that must foot the bill, and meet the requirements to care for the child.  Either both parents pay child support or neither pay child support.  Simple because a vast load of men reject their physical responsibility to the child does not mean that the system is one sided...it just means that more fathers pay for child support because they are not physically or in any other way helping to raise the child that they created, that exists, that has physical and financial needs.

Men have to pay a small portion of their income once a month.  Women have to pay for the entire pregnancy/childbirth as well as deal with the physical, emotion, and mental threat to their health to have the child alone.  A threat that still cripples women, still leads to sterilization, diabetes, heart disease, strokes, death.  

Yup....men have it so horribly.