Re: On PETA

[curiosityandthecat]

Makes one wonder why celebrities are drawn to PETA and Scientology when they're obviously both bat shit insane. Is it just a kind of gravity, a snowball effect? Power draws power toward it, that sort of thing? Still, wow, stupid.

Sometimes I think people join PETA because they just want to be a part of a cause, and PETA is well know. I mean, if they were truly passionate about saving the lives of animals, they'd join Sea Shepherd, you know?   Throwing red paint on fur coats is pretty weak compared to throwing bottles of acid onto the deck of a Japanese whaling ship.

[thiolsulfate]

Makes one wonder why celebrities are drawn to PETA and Scientology when they're obviously both bat shit insane. Is it just a kind of gravity, a snowball effect? Power draws power toward it, that sort of thing? Still, wow, stupid.

Sometimes I think people join PETA because they just want to be a part of a cause, and PETA is well know. I mean, if they were truly passionate about saving the lives of animals, they'd join Sea Shepherd, you know?   Throwing red paint on fur coats is pretty weak compared to throwing bottles of acid onto the deck of a Japanese whaling ship.

Maybe it's like those Operation Rescue nuts who don't openly advocate the murder of doctors and the bombing and vandalism of clinics, but knowingly generate the conditions such that violent and criminal vigilantism is inevitable.

The raiding of medical research labs may be evidence of that. The fact that university level researches have changed documentation standards to make themselves more anonymous in fear of these groups.

In my last year at University they closed down all roads onto campus because of a bomb threat made to the university's medical school and medical research center.

[Ihateyoumike]

 

[JillSwift]

 

[Guest]

The factory farms are horrendous, and it's not intentional but it's unfortunately a reality when we consider the number of meat-eaters there are.  It's not like sweet little family farms would be able to manage our population.  So, I'm glad there are more people moving towards vegetarianism, and there are people willing to consume less meat for health reasons or whatever, so those conditions may change some in the future.  However, stating that the process of harvesting honey is torture and cruel to bees, that fish experience suffering, and that the milk I drink is full of infectous pus is freakin' ridiculous.

So is there a consensus among scientific community about the fish not experiencing suffering? I'm just curious I guess, don't really know much about the issue, have been fishing and at least it seems that the fish is not enjoying but it sure is hard to tell what it experiences. What Is It Like to Be a Bat, like Nagel puts it.

I have been de facto vegetarian since 2003, right after the army service (I think it would be a somewhat bad idea to be a veggie in the Finnish military). De facto, namely because I'd accept non-factory meat, but it was not regularly available, at least not then, so it was easier to just refrain from meat altogether. Fish for me is the same thing, it is not usually available ethically. My cousin is an elk hunter, and I got some of that stuff from him earlier.

I too think that PETA is an interesting organization! We don't have anything quite like that in Finland, although you may have heard about ALF (Animal Liberation Front), but it is decentralized so I don't know whether it can be compared to an organization like that. Occasionally they strike to a mink or fox farm and liberate the animals. Stupid of course, since these are fierce predators and not native here so they just pillage the wildlife near the farm. I think the farming is unnecessary and cruel business though, we don't actually need the fur, and the cages are way too small for growing that kind of animals without immense suffering.

Peter Singer is a good read, I think.

Edit: Oh, and I'm not sure how wise it is to irritate a group like PETA with photos like that? Provoking worked so well for Harry Harlow!

[Kylyssa]

The factory farms are horrendous, and it's not intentional but it's unfortunately a reality when we consider the number of meat-eaters there are.  It's not like sweet little family farms would be able to manage our population.  

There are things in between that would work OK.  But in the 80's, small to moderate farms and large but not gigantic farms collapsed.  Government subsidies to corporate farms made it impossible for non-corporate farms to compete and the economy finished them off.  

I also think people, domestic animals, and the environment would benefit greatly if people consumed less meat.  If people could reduce their meat consumption, those 'large but not gigantic' farms would be enough.

[VanReal]

There are things in between that would work OK.  But in the 80's, small to moderate farms and large but not gigantic farms collapsed.  Government subsidies to corporate farms made it impossible for non-corporate farms to compete and the economy finished them off.  

I also think people, domestic animals, and the environment would benefit greatly if people consumed less meat.  If people could reduce their meat consumption, those 'large but not gigantic' farms would be enough.

I agree.  Less consumption alone would benefit people healthwise, benefit the animals, and the environment but I think we are a long way off from convincing, americans at least, that we don't have to have scrumptous body parts on our plate for each meal.  It's hard to change that way of thinking, especially here in Texas, home of the huge servings and yummy barbecue!  As long as we consume as we do there's not much hope for changes in farming.  I guess it's one of those things we do what we are comfortable with.

So is there a consensus among scientific community about the fish not experiencing suffering? I'm just curious I guess, don't really know much about the issue, have been fishing and at least it seems that the fish is not enjoying but it sure is hard to tell what it experiences. What Is It Like to Be a Bat, like Nagel puts it.

No, I don't think there is any consensus on that.  I don't think the fish are enjoying it either, and I am sure they experience pain, they have a brain and nerve ending.  I just don't think they are released from the hook (in a catch and release for example) and then wallow around in the water thinking about the terrible ordeal they experienced.  It's of course my opinion, I just don't find it to be the same as say stringing or boxing up a baby lamb so it can't move and will be nice and tender for eating later.  Maybe I'm a "fishist".

[Guest]

So is there a consensus among scientific community about the fish not experiencing suffering? I'm just curious I guess, don't really know much about the issue, have been fishing and at least it seems that the fish is not enjoying but it sure is hard to tell what it experiences. What Is It Like to Be a Bat, like Nagel puts it.

No, I don't think there is any consensus on that.  I don't think the fish are enjoying it either, and I am sure they experience pain, they have a brain and nerve ending.  I just don't think they are released from the hook (in a catch and release for example) and then wallow around in the water thinking about the terrible ordeal they experienced.  It's of course my opinion, I just don't find it to be the same as say stringing or boxing up a baby lamb so it can't move and will be nice and tender for eating later.  Maybe I'm a "fishist".

Yeah, and I've heard about goldfish memory, like in the movie Memento, the fish can no longer remember what happened a moment ago. Although on Mythbusters it seemed that they were able to teach a goldfish to swim through a simple maze... That is certainly not the same thing, I agree that treating a lamb the same way as fish would indeed be crueler (is that a word, even?). Maybe it is partly because a lamb resembles us more than fish.

And while I think that while it is indeed laughable to think that bees suffer from honey harvesting, for example it would be somewhat unethical to allow kids to tear wings or otherwise freely torture bees. For example compared to playing with plants or non-living material, it seems to me that there is some difference.

I guess there is same kind of warped reason to give credit for PETA because of their policy of treating all animal life the same, as with the pro-life people or fundamentalists in general: at least they are consistent! Nevermind that it verges on insanity...  

In the issue of animal rights I feel like being the Liberal Christian (or as I myself like to call em: New Age Christian), I get ridiculed both from fundies (vegans), and atheists (carnivores) alike for being inconsistent.

[disposablechild]

I believe when PETA made the ad stating studies show autism and cow milk were related, they were using logic based on coincidence. just because an autistic person drinks cow milk, does not mean they are related. coincidences are real.

[curiosityandthecat]

I believe when PETA made the ad stating studies show autism and cow milk were related, they were using logic based on coincidence. just because an autistic person drinks cow milk, does not mean they are related. coincidences are real.

Yeah, it's basically the ice cream/murder correlation everyone learned in Psych 101. Violent crime goes up in the summer. So does the sale of ice cream. Therefore, the two are directly related.  

[SSY]

I think celebs etc join PETA without really thinking about it.

"Yea, helping animals, I can't see anyway that could be bad, YAY PETA!"

also

[Moses]

This statement is slightly off topic but what does PETA expect us to do?

If we all went vegan or just vegetarian we would still have to hire hunters and traps to kill animals. If we did not then there would be no crops left to eat. I mean we are far from the only species that eats this stuff. This is what crop growers do now and have always had to do.

This is a fact in nearly all agricultural activity. So no matter what food product we eat will be funding farmers to kill animals on our behalf instead of doing it ourselves.

That said I think since animals experience pain they should be treated in the most humane way possible but I still do not think that gives them full rights like that of a human. You need to be able to be cognitive of human rights to get them. What i mean is you need to be able to understand why attacking someones house is wrong. Now not all humans follow that ethic but they can understand it even if they do not believe in that ethic. Therefore those who break into houses can be held morally responsible whereas a Gorilla cannot be since they are not cognitive of abstract thought (though they are an amazingly smart and respectable species).

Nor do all  humans even get the full extent of rights. Growing children and the insane cannot sign contracts or vote since they cannot grasp the situations involved.

[Guest]

Nor do all  humans even get the full extent of rights. Growing children and the insane cannot sign contracts or vote since they cannot grasp the situations involved.

Well, a question pops in to mind, why don't we eat them then? Or better yet, some who just is not cognitive of human rights (and will not be in the future), for example people who were born as "a veggie"?

[quizlixx]

I used to be a vegetarian. I also thought peta was only around for people who didn't like animal abuse.    Stupid me.

[Moses]

Nor do all  humans even get the full extent of rights. Growing children and the insane cannot sign contracts or vote since they cannot grasp the situations involved.

Well, a question pops in to mind, why don't we eat them then? Or better yet, some who just is not cognitive of human rights (and will not be in the future), for example people who were born as "a veggie"?

Well children are developing cognition so they do have rights since the potential is there.

The insane are far more cognitive than animals. For instance a mentally retarded adult is far more capable of reason than a dog or ape.

Hence laws that restrict the actions of incapable humans tend to be there to protect them. As far as people born "veggie" I think that might be up to the parents afterall I dont have a problem with euthanisia in certain circumstances. Now when it comes to eating them there is a whole host of public health issues. For instance cannabilization as a practise leads to all sorts of diseases.


Cannabilism:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg1 ... ealth.html