Re: If Christians Believe Morality Comes From God

[Kylyssa]

If Christians believe morality is a set of standards or rules set by God - then why do they not agree with each other on what exactly those morals are?

If morals are not relative but are instead universal and imposed by God - why are those morals practiced and interpreted in so very many ways by Christians?

[Sophus]

Really good point. Christianity is the largest religion but Christians don't really understand how alone they are in having company of those who share all of their beliefs. There are over 3,000 (or is it 4,000?) sects of Christianity. Some of which don't consider others "True Christians" and Christians themselves say there will be a lot of surprised, disappointed people when they learn they didn't quite believe the right way when to get into heaven after they die.

[BuckeyeInNC]

I think your point is perhaps the strongest argument against the existence of a God.

[Phillysoul11]

Christians and theists for that matter believe God to have revealed himself in different ways. In reference to the Bible, Christians interpret passages differently which leads to different views on certain moral issues. I'm not sure how this effects objective morality, it only shows that if objective morality is true, they can't all be right. I don't see how everyone (or every Christian) having the same set of morals is necessary for morality to be objective. I would appreciate clarification :]

[Tanker]

It's been my experience that many Christians believe other Christian sects are wrong and only their religion has the strait line to God and Heaven. So they all think the others are wrong even though they are interpreting the same book. Heck look at protestants and catholics in Ireland reading the same book believing in the same god folowing the same morals and warring because they aren't doing it exactly the same way.

[Tom62]

It is all about interpretation. Even a disagreement about the meaning of single word in a single verse can cause a schism in a Christian church. Also, the biggest problem that Christians encounter when (or if) they read the Bible is which parts of the Bible they should take literally or figuratively. Separating facts from fiction is a tough job for those who believe that the Bible is the word of God.

[karadan]

It must be easy for a deeply religious person to stick his/her head in the sand when it comes to confronting this topic.
"I'm right and the other fake believers are wrong la la la la la la la la la la la la la..."

It's either that or:

"God works in mysterious ways." (This one pisses me off no end).

[JillSwift]

"God works in mysterious ways." (This one pisses me off no end).

QFT

It's an euphemism for "willful ignorance", to which I wish we could reply as a society: "Well, ok, but you don't get to vote or hold a job in management. Oh, and forget university, we need the room for folks who want to learn."

[ryan-blues]

A typical Christian response to this question is that God's univeral/absolute/objective morality can not be known to humanity as we are unable to comprehend or even understand it. Which seems kinda silly because if this so-called universal morality can not be comprehended and is effectively pointless and irrelevant to humanity (pre-afterlife atleast) then how is it anyway absolute or objetive?

Sounds like a cop-out as well as a form of Yahweh Apologism to me.

[Phillysoul11]

A typical Christian response to this question is that God's univeral/absolute/objective morality can not be known to humanity as we are unable to comprehend or even understand it. Which seems kinda silly because if this so-called universal morality can not be comprehended and is effectively pointless and irrelevant to humanity (pre-afterlife atleast) then how is it anyway absolute or objetive?

Sounds like a cop-out as well as a form of Yahweh Apologism to me.

It is? It seems to me that most christians think that they can know for instance that rape, is objectively wrong, regardless of any society which deems it right. As I mentioned before, most christians think that objective moral truths can be found in the Bible (gods revelation). That has been my experience anyway.

It must be easy for a deeply religious person to stick his/her head in the sand when it comes to confronting this topic.
"I'm right and the other fake believers are wrong la la la la la la la la la la la la la..."

It's easy for anyone to shy away from discussing issues. There are lazy people in every walk of life. It is a copout, which is why you can't really ever take those people seriously. If they don't know why they believe what they believe why should you believe what they believe ect. The people you need to discuss issues with are the people who know what they believe and why they believe it. If you are somehow assuming all religious people are ignorant regarding their religious beliefs then by all means, live with that mentality. It is however, in my opinion a pretty ignorant position to take. (Not that you do have that mentality)

[BuckeyeInNC]

It is? It seems to me that most christians think that they can know for instance that rape, is objectively wrong, regardless of any society which deems it right.

Which is amazing to me because when they THINK they know what is objectively wrong, then it is clear to me that they are using their own human ability to reason and rationalize to distinguish between right and wrong.  I like that, because they tend to use their own human capacity to think, rather than rely upon some ancient text to tell them.

Many theists also tend to define their religion based upon their own determination as to what is moral, rather than the reverse.  Another good trend.

As I mentioned before, most christians think that objective moral truths can be found in the Bible (gods revelation). That has been my experience anyway.

Agreed.  That is the real problem.  While they tend to define their religion based upon their own determination as to what is moral, they fail to recognize that fact and look for evidence in the Bible to confirm their morality.

[Phillysoul11]

As I mentioned before, most christians think that objective moral truths can be found in the Bible (gods revelation). That has been my experience anyway.

Agreed.  That is the real problem.  While they tend to define their religion based upon their own determination as to what is moral, they fail to recognize that fact and look for evidence in the Bible to confirm their morality.

If I am understanding you correctly (let me know if I'm not) you are claiming that christians don't understand that instead of basing their morality off of the Bible, they are basing it off of their own conscience, and the problem is that they don't understand this? Again, I can only speak from experience but from what I have seen Christian seem to base their beliefs off of the Bible, their conscience (or lack therof) while influenced by the Bible, has another source. From what I have seen Christians are all to ready to admit this, maybe even throwing out passages to defend this view.

Rom. 2:15-16 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

But that's just my experience, What's yours?

[BuckeyeInNC]

If I am understanding you correctly (let me know if I'm not) you are claiming that christians don't understand that instead of basing their morality off of the Bible, they are basing it off of their own conscience, and the problem is that they don't understand this? Again, I can only speak from experience but from what I have seen Christian seem to base their beliefs off of the Bible, their conscience (or lack therof) while influenced by the Bible, has another source. From what I have seen Christians are all to ready to admit this, maybe even throwing out passages to defend this view.

My position is not fully developed on this point, so forgive me if I do not explain it clearly.

The vast majority of christians that I have met appear to have an innate sense of morality and "know" what is right.  This makes sense to me as it is the same sense that I think most humans have innately.  Part of being human means that we have an inner moral compass.  A large portion of these folks shop around for religions that fit with their innate sense of what is right.  They visit several different churches and christian sects and join a church based upon what feels comfortable to them.  If they find themselves in a church that teaches something that is innately wrong to them, they will leave that church and find another.  They are definining their religion based upon their innate sense of morality, not the reverse.

Now, they will never tell you this because they do not appear to understand that they have an innate understanding of their own morality.  They would be entirely uncomfortable with such an admission.  Rather, they want to be able to point to an authority that backs up their morality.  It is this compulsion that causes them to search the bible for an interpretation of a biblical passage that confirms their morality.

It has been my impresssion that the vast majority of religious people meet the above description.  They choose their religion based upon their own morality, not the reverse.  They merely use the bible as a crutch to support their own moral identity and to claim authority from some higher power.

Of course, there are those who never change churches and have never entertained the thought that other sects may have a more comfortable sense of morality to them.  Those folks, imho, are lazy, unquestioning sheep.  They get suckered into sticking with a particular religion simply because exploring such issues and risking a change in their life would be more uncomfortable than the alternative of sticking with something with which they are familiar (the devil they know).  Perhaps, they were raised in that church, all of their family and friends go there, they enjoy the fellowship that they experience with the church, and the church does many good things in their community.  It is a warm and fuzzy place.

Imho, the fact remains that they overlook the fact that they have their own inner sense of morality and accept the trappings of religions as a concession.  It is easier to not question and to defend.

Your statement appears to confirm this impression, but does not recognize it.  When you say

Christian seem to base their beliefs off of the Bible, their conscience (or lack therof) while influenced by the Bible, has another source.

They SEEM to base their belief off of the bible as they want to give that impression.  However, you say that their beliefs have "another source."  If you are saying that the "another source" is their inner morality, then I would agree.

From what I have seen Christians are all to ready to admit this, maybe even throwing out passages to defend this view.

That is what is so exasperating to me.  They may readily admit that they determine their religion based upon their inner sense of morality, but then they "thow out passages" in an attempt to provide their morality with credibility.

Which is it?  The bible determines their beliefs, a situation in which throwing out passages makes sense, or they have "another source" (inner moral compass) that determines their beliefs, a situation in which throwing out bible passages makes no sense to me.  Perhaps, because I do not recognize the Bible as an arbiter of morality.  Yet, they cling to the belief that the Bible is an arbiter of morality.  It makes no sense for them to make such a claim.

[Phillysoul11]

That is what is so exasperating to me.  They may readily admit that they determine their religion based upon their inner sense of morality, but then they "thow out passages" in an attempt to provide their morality with credibility.

When they admit this they admit that they as well as anyone else can act morally without adhering to the Bible. All they are claiming by using passages like this is that morality is in part based off of inner conscience.  

Which is it?  The bible determines their beliefs, a situation in which throwing out passages makes sense, or they have "another source" (inner moral compass) that determines their beliefs, a situation in which throwing out bible passages makes no sense to me.  Perhaps, because I do not recognize the Bible as an arbiter of morality.  Yet, they cling to the belief that the Bible is an arbiter of morality.  It makes no sense for them to make such a claim.

I don't understand why it couldn't be a combination of both. Child rape for example is so horribly wrong that most people's conscience would be a strong enough indicator of why humans shouldn't preform this sort of act. However, there are acts which are much less morally clear (instinctively).

[BuckeyeInNC]

most people's conscience

I think you and I agree on this.  There are plenty of sources to gauge or which may serve as a reference or guide to what is moral or not.  If I am faced with a moral dilemma, I may, like many of us, look for guidance from the outside.  I may ask family and friends.  I may even look to the Bible and other sources for guidance.

The difference is that I do not assert that the Bible is the ultimate authority and use the Bible as proof that my inner moral compass is correct.  THAT is what I find troubling.

You know, its the whole "The Bible is God's infallible word" view that I take issue with.   They present passages as irrefutable proof of their morality and cling to it.