If Atheists Ruled The World (Vid) *NSFW*

[curiosityandthecat]

it's happening man, just visit the chrisitian persecution links I provided..

Do you know any Buddhists? Or do you just parrot these websites on message boards? I know Buddhists. I'm marrying one. Believe me when I tell you, Buddhists, by and large, are very peaceful people and would never consider killing anyone (or anything, for that matter) for such an arbitrary reason as the identity of their imaginary friend.

And you don't understand how every christian wishes atheists would follow some sort of moral laws. do not judge others, and do not criticize people!

Reminder: you've come here, to the Happy Atheist Forum, with the sole reason of trying to convert people you see as heathens. If that's not judging and criticizing, I don't know what is.

No! Other religious people were NOT executed and sent to the lions den like the christians. Don't lie to me!

Not a lie. Other religious people were not sent to the lions den like the Christians were because that's a specific Roman incident. The things that have happened to other people are thousands of times worse.

As a matter of fact.. If you want to get scientific about this.. Yes it does have to do with an atheist. The Iranian President does not believe in Jesus Christ as GOD. So according to Christianity.. he's an atheist to our GOD. so, it's an atheist to the Jewish God that wants to vaporize the Jewish People.. JUST AS GOD SAID WOULD HAPPEN 4,000 YEARS AGO! "FIRE SHALL RAIN DOWN FROM THE SKY AND THE EARTH WILL BE SET ABLAZE." this is nuclear war. "YOUR FLESH WILL ROT AS YOU STAND ON YOUR FEET, AND YOUR EYEBALLS SHALL ROT IN THEIR SOCKETS, AND YOUR TONGUE SHALL ROT IN YOUR MOUTH." -

Your definition of atheism is not the definition of atheism. You don't get to decide what words mean just because they suit your purpose. We've already been over this nuclear war claptrap in another thread. You're not convincing anyone. It's interesting that on one hand you say that, as Christians, you're neither obligated to adhere to nor interested in the Old Testament, yet you're quoting the Book of Zechariah. Which is it?

God forewarned us about NUCLEAR WAR 3,500 years ago.

Do you think for some reason that putting things in ALL CAPS will somehow make them more meaningful? What is that?

I'm only here to save you. not judge you.

you don't have to believe in what I'm telling you.

We don't need saved.  kthnxbai

[JillSwift]

Hmm. Wouldn't Christians by definition be the only ones who could be persecuted for believing in Jesus? I mean, since, say, Buddhists don't believe in Jesus, they wouldn't be persecuted for believing... Q.E.D.

Buddhists would kill if someone worshipped Christ on their land.

Um, re-read what I wrote, sweetie. You misunderstood me.

I agree with you 100%!! People who claim to be Christians murder other people. I cannot explain it. Nor will I attempt to explain it. Jesus made it very clear!! "DO NOT KILL," "DO NOT JUDGE OTHERS" & "DO NOT CRITICIZE A MAN FOR HIS BAD HABITS".

Well, when you get that judgemental attitude under control, then I guess you'll be a "true" Christian.

Gee, I guess you didn't hear about Iran planning a "doomsday" bomb on Israel and most of the Middle East? I suppose you don't know about all of the world's high powers obtaining nuclear weapons.. because every one knows the "BIG ONE" is coming.. and there is no controlling it. It's all been written in history. thousands of years before our time..

Not a lot of point answering this bit of silliness. We're still vastly better off now than the humans who lived 2k years ago - even if there were a credible threat of nuclear exchange in the middle east.

Well, people have been murdering one another and persecuting one another for even the tiniest perceived differences since the start of recorded history. If there was a Jesus and he said they'd be persecuted, it wasn't so much prophetical as just pointing out the obvious.

No, let me correct you. Jesus said, "My followers will be tortured and sent to prison for believing in me". How did he know this would happen even 2,000 years after his death? Was Jesus a supernatural being that knew the future in advance? Jesus also said, "My word shall be preached to the ends of the earth." How did he know his word that was being told to 12 men would be spread all over the world? I mean, afterall, Jesus was not a well-liked man by the Romans in that time era.

I just explained that. That's what people do - they persecute those different from themselves. It's hardly surprising that this was known even by a bunch of bronze age sheep herders.  :|

[Psalm23]

Do you know any Buddhists? Or do you just parrot these websites on message boards? I know Buddhists. I'm marrying one. Believe me when I tell you, Buddhists, by and large, are very peaceful people and would never consider killing anyone (or anything, for that matter) for such an arbitrary reason as the identity of their imaginary friend.

Yes, I know Buddhists. And secondly, have you ever watched "Lock up" on MSNBC? State and Federal Prisons have religious sections, and I noticed Buddhists were in a room praying? One was in for murder. How are they any different from anyone else? You are claiming Buddhists are Saints?  

Eeminder: you've come here, to the Happy Atheist Forum, with the sole reason of trying to convert people you see as heathens. If that's not judging and criticizing, I don't know what is.

I don't see all atheists as heathens, just the ones who endorse posting ads on city transportation that says, "GOD IS NOT THERE". Yes, those people need a hobby other than disturbing religious people. I'm not in here criticizing anyone, nor am I in here judging anyone. I'm only in here telling you how it is. where you believe or not. just because atheists say "there is no God.." that doesn't mean he's not there. you are living a 50/50 chance.

Not a lie. Other religious people were not sent to the lions den like the Christians were because that's a specific Roman incident. The things that have happened to other people are thousands of times worse.

do you know if I went to IRAN and claimed I was a christian.. the Iranian court would hang me, or behead me? all for believing "their prophet of Allah" was GOD in the flesh? How can you justify that? There are christians living in fear every day in the middle east.

Your definition of atheism is not the definition of atheism. You don't get to decide what words mean just because they suit your purpose. We've already been over this nuclear war claptrap in another thread. You're not convincing anyone. It's interesting that on one hand you say that, as Christians, you're neither obligated to adhere to nor interested in the Old Testament, yet you're quoting the Book of Zechariah. Which is it?

atheism is someone who doesn't believe in God. Iranians don't believe in my God.. so they are atheists. I don't believe in their ALLAH.. so according to them. I'm an atheist, but they would rather hang me because I'm a Christian, and not an atheist..

Do you think for some reason that putting things in ALL CAPS will somehow make them more meaningful? What is that?

apparently it must be.. because you are the one who mentioned it. That's how I type..

We don't need saved. kthnxbai

we? are you speaking for others on their behalf? every atheist bulletin board i visit.. i always have members emailing me.. saying.. "tell me more about this God of yours.. I'm curious.."

so yes.. even your so-called diehard atheists in here are trying to find some sort of comfort in God almighty..

[Psalm23]

Um, re-read what I wrote, sweetie. You misunderstood me.

Yes, but it's only the christians who are persecuted and sent to prison. do you see muslims in prison in israel or america for doing nothing but following allah? No, you don't! do you see christians in prison for following jesus? yes, you do! how can this be justified? only christianity is persecuted out of the hundreds of different religions..

Well, when you get that judgemental attitude under control, then I guess you'll be a "true" Christian.

Me? Judgemental? ha! no way..

Not a lot of point answering this bit of silliness. We're still vastly better off now than the humans who lived 2k years ago - even if there were a credible threat of nuclear exchange in the middle east.

we are nowhere near "better off" than mankind was 2,000 years ago. do you know China, America and Russia have the nuclear technology to eterminate every single living cell on this earth if they wanted to? America alone has the nuclear capability to make the earth hotter than the sun if they wanted.  

I just explained that. That's what people do - they persecute those different from themselves. It's hardly surprising that this was known even by a bunch of bronze age sheep herders.

According to the Romans.. Jesus' word was good as mud to them. how did jesus predict his word shall never die? that's just awesome!!

If I had a nickel for every doomsday prediction I've ever heard, I'd be a wealthy woman. What's the popular one now? 1012?  

[curiosityandthecat]

Yes, I know Buddhists. And secondly, have you ever watched "Lock up" on MSNBC? State and Federal Prisons have religious sections, and I noticed Buddhists were in a room praying? One was in for murder. How are they any different from anyone else? You are claiming Buddhists are Saints?  

I'm not claiming all Buddhists are saints. You made the statement that "Buddhists would kill if someone worshipped Christ on their land" and you're basing this on one self-proclaimed Buddhist in jail on a murder rap? Do you have any idea what the population of prisoners is that are Christian? Suffice to say it's the majority.

I don't see all atheists as heathens, just the ones who endorse posting ads on city transportation that says, "GOD IS NOT THERE". Yes, those people need a hobby other than disturbing religious people. I'm not in here criticizing anyone, nor am I in here judging anyone. I'm only in here telling you how it is. where you believe or not. just because atheists say "there is no God.." that doesn't mean he's not there. you are living a 50/50 chance.

This is a matter of perspective. What you consider "disturbing religious people", others view as "asserting their rights" or "expressing themselves, constitutionally." It's interesting that you'd say atheists are living a 50/50 chance. Are you admitting that there's a 50% chance we're right?

do you know if I went to IRAN and claimed I was a christian.. the Iranian court would hang me, or behead me? all for believing "their prophet of Allah" was GOD in the flesh? How can you justify that? There are christians living in fear every day in the middle east.

What's your point?

atheism is someone who doesn't believe in God. Iranians don't believe in my God.. so they are atheists. I don't believe in their ALLAH.. so according to them. I'm an atheist, but they would rather hang me because I'm a Christian, and not an atheist..

Uhm, no. What you're talking about is religious differences and opinion. If you believe in any sort of god, you are not an atheist. Period.

apparently it must be.. because you are the one who mentioned it. That's how I type..

I mention it because it's nonsensical and doesn't add any meaning to the words, aside from to point out what you feel are the most important (if only to you) parts of your "arguments". To me, it's just shouting.

we? are you speaking for others on their behalf? every atheist bulletin board i visit.. i always have members emailing me.. saying.. "tell me more about this God of yours.. I'm curious.."

so yes.. even your so-called diehard atheists in here are trying to find some sort of comfort in God almighty..

Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and claim to speak for just about every atheist here: we don't want saved, we don't need saved, and we aren't interested in what you're selling.

Do you know why atheists email you and ask you that? They're not converting. They're curious, just as they said. I'm curious about the psychological effects of Chinese water torture. Doesn't mean I want to experience it.

"Comfort" in a god is not comfort, at all. It's denial.

[Psalm23]

I'm not claiming all Buddhists are saints. You made the statement that "Buddhists would kill if someone worshipped Christ on their land" and you're basing this on one self-proclaimed Buddhist in jail on a murder rap? Do you have any idea what the population of prisoners is that are Christian? Suffice to say it's the majority.

Ok, just as long as you admit there are buddhists who are killers, rapists and child molesters in prison all across the U.S. BUT.. as far as your "more christians than most" in U.S prisons is like me saying "there are mainly muslims in prisons in IRAQ". Your arguement is a tad bit flawed.

This is a matter of perspective. What you consider "disturbing religious people", others view as "asserting their rights" or "expressing themselves, constitutionally." It's interesting that you'd say atheists are living a 50/50 chance. Are you admitting that there's a 50% chance we're right?

and what is that right? to express "God does not exist?" wouldn't that be a form of preaching? did you read that article? even an atheist said "this ad is nothing but a promotion for christianity.."

No!! according to you. YOU are living the 50/50 chance. because no man on this earth can say; "i know for sure GOD is not there." You can bring to me the most brilliant and sophisticated scientist and biologist in the world.. and he/she will not be able to tell me with 100% fact that "god does not exist.." I guarantee it!! you can tell me with 99.9% fact, but it's that 1% that you may be wrong. why do you want to live a life of sheer total jeapordy?

Uhm, no. What you're talking about is religious differences and opinion. If you believe in any sort of god, you are not an atheist. Period.

that's where you and i differ. I see people in Islam as atheists to my God. yes, they may have different religious views, but they don't believe MY GOD "YAHWEH" exists.. that would make them an atheist. because he is the only true God that offers eternal salvation for a small fee. and that fee is "just believeth in the Lord.."
Lord Yahweh doesn't want his followers smashing airplanes into buildings to get their point across. Lord Yahweh wants his followers to show atheists that he is really there, and when they hurt, he hurts, too.

Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and claim to speak for just about every atheist here: we don't want saved, we don't need saved, and we aren't interested in what you're selling.

Hmm? That's odd because I had an ex-atheist email me in private messages in another forum, and she told me, "thank you for showing me the truth. i cannot believe i was blinded for nearly 20 years!! I hope God will forgive me!!??"

Do you know why atheists email you and ask you that? They're not converting. They're curious, just as they said. I'm curious about the psychological effects of Chinese water torture. Doesn't mean I want to experience it.

but wait!! God is not there.. so why are these people so curious about a being that is not in existence? it sounds like someone is unsure of themself?  

"Comfort" in a god is not comfort, at all. It's denial.

before i found God..i almost commited suicide because SATAN told me to do it!! and no!!! I did not hear voices in my head!! I'm not a shitzophrentic!! I was heavily into satanic black and death metal music. I was taking the lyrics literally, and not to mention, the backward masking they used was a bit extreme as well. "satan will claim your soul" - lyrics by the black metal band; VENOM

without that music.. i don't have that burning hatred within my soul any more.. thanks to God!!
 
believe me.. i was the most anti-god person throughout most of my life. i can't explain it, but i turned religious within the last several years..

[JillSwift]

Yes, but it's only the christians who are persecuted and sent to prison. do you see muslims in prison in israel or america for doing nothing but following allah? No, you don't! do you see christians in prison for following jesus? yes, you do! how can this be justified? only christianity is persecuted out of the hundreds of different religions..

I see Muslims in prison for being Muslims - Guantanamo, SriLanka - and murdered for it - Congo. Buddhists in prison for being Buddhists - China. Your persecution complex is cute, but not well substantiated.

Me? Judgemental? ha! no way..

If you weren't, you wouldn't claim that being atheist was akin to being a mass murderer.

we are nowhere near "better off" than mankind was 2,000 years ago. do you know China, America and Russia have the nuclear technology to eterminate every single living cell on this earth if they wanted to? America alone has the nuclear capability to make the earth hotter than the sun if they wanted.  

Like I said - even if there were a credible threat of nuclear exchange, we're still in better shape that the humans of 2K ago. (Russia? Russia? What, is this the 80's all over again?)

Yes!! I agree with you 100%!!! Jesus boldy said, "NO ONE KNOWS OF THAT HOUR OR DAY, NOT THE ANGELS, NOT EVEN THE SON OF MAN, BUT ONLY THE FATHER!"

I have no idea why christians jump up and down screaming 'the sky is falling.. the sky is falling..." is beyond me!!!

if you notice.. I don't give exact dates! I'm telling you "something big is coming, and it's coming from the Middle East.."

and why the mid-east you ask? Because GOD said the end shall begin in the middle east by fire and destruction.

and what's happening as we speak? IRAN has nuclear weapons and they are test firing missiles towards Israel..

Just watch and see..

You will say "damn, that guy was right all along.."

mankind did not have the fire power 2,000 years ago like we have in 2009. one press of a button and we could exterminate ourselves off this planet. back in jesus' day.. they used sticks and stones with sling shots.

Seems that saying I'll be around to watch and see is very much claiming to have some knowledge of the time in which this doomsday is supposed to occur. "Exact" dates mean just as little as "vague" dates for doomsday predictions - the world was supposed to come to and end in 431ce, then in 1794, 1831, 1841, 1910, 1914, 1915, 1918, 1920, 1925, 1941, 1975 and 1994. I think the doom-sayers have reached the "cried wolf" cut-off.

[Psalm23]

I see Muslims in prison for being Muslims - Guantanamo, SriLanka - and murdered for it - Congo. Buddhists in prison for being Buddhists - China. Your persecution complex is cute, but not well substantiated.

they are not in prison for being followers of islam! they are in prison for being terrorists, and linked to terrorist networks!

If you weren't, you wouldn't claim that being atheist was akin to being a mass murderer.

once again.. showing facts on a youtube video is hardly judging. i'm just stating the obvious..

Like I said - even if there were a credible threat of nuclear exchange, we're still in better shape that the humans of 2K ago. (Russia? Russia? What, is this the 80's all over again?)

No, this is not the 1980s. this is 2009, and russia is supplying iran with nuclear bombs.. did you know that? I guess you better brush up on the GOG-MAGOG story. Ancient writers of GOD warned us about the north supplying persia with weapons to destroy the people of God.

Seems that saying I'll be around to watch and see is very much claiming to have some knowledge of the time in which this doomsday is supposed to occur. "Exact" dates mean just as little as "vague" dates for doomsday predictions - the world was supposed to come to and end in 431ce, then in 1794, 1831, 1841, 1910, 1914, 1915, 1918, 1920, 1925, 1941, 1975 and 1994. I think the doom-sayers have reached the "cried wolf" cut-off.

it's going to happen within our lifetime. just goto your search engine and type in "iran nuclear" that's all they key-words you need. you'll see what i'm talking about.

and as for those dates.. thats just gibberish. I've already shown the bible verse. Jesus said, "don't worry about the end because ONLY THE FATHER knows when the end will come".

i don't know exactly when.. but mankind is going to exterminate itself from the world. it's all a matter of time.

it doesn't take a prophet of God to see it coming..

[curiosityandthecat]

before i found God..i almost commited suicide because SATAN told me to do it!! and no!!! I did not hear voices in my head!! I'm not a shitzophrentic!! I was heavily into satanic black and death metal music. I was taking the lyrics literally, and not to mention, the backward masking they used was a bit extreme as well. "satan will claim your soul" - lyrics by the black metal band; VENOM

without that music.. i don't have that burning hatred within my soul any more.. thanks to God!!
 
believe me.. i was the most anti-god person throughout most of my life. i can't explain it, but i turned religious within the last several years..

Nooooow I understand. Your naivety and poor taste in music were to blame for your suicidal feelings, not Satan. You can't explain why you turned to religion in the past few years because you, by your very religious nature, are not willing to critically analyze the world beyond one or two steps. "I want to kill myself. This music tells me to and mentions Satan. Hey, I quit listening to the music and started doing the opposite that it says, and wow, I feel much better! Praise Jebus!" It's much easier to lay responsibility on an outside force than to take it, yourself. "Satan made me do this, God made me do that." Excuses, nothing more. Religion is a crutch; God, the injury.

God has nothing to do with your life, Psalm. You changed on your own volition. You made that happen. Trust in yourself, man. You don't need an imaginary friend to make your life better. God is an outlet, that voice in your head that, though you think is a higher power, is just you. That's why you get confused some times, Psalm. I'm sure your mind is telling you one thing ("I bet there are some really nice atheists out there, just giving them the benefit of the doubt.") while your conviction is telling you another ("Atheists are immoral, evil people who want nothing more than to destroy the God and the traditions I cherish!").

By your own admission, you're a newly religious convert. You take all this scripture and "calling" very seriously. I get that. I know people who stopped smoking or became vegan and, for a while, that's all they talked about. They were very passionate. It's human nature; it's what we do.

Psalm, the things you're worried about, all these "end of days" predictions and Christian persecutions, they're fantasy. I know, you're going to say, "I used to say the same thing! I've since been shown the light of GOD and I see perfectly now that I was wrong!" I don't expect anything less. So, go ahead, tell me I'm wrong and that I should just wait and see.

You want to tell us the things you're telling us whether we believe it or not. You feel it's your duty. Well, you don't have to believe what I've told you, either. There is no God, not really, not outside your imagination. The mind is very powerful, Psalm. If anything is a god, it's the human mind.

You don't need God. You just need you.

[PipeBox]

A few things I'll address.  There is nowhere near the amount of nuclear weapons available needed to make the Earth hotter than the sun, and definitely not in the possession of the United States alone.  There are some 9926 nuclear weapons kept on the ready, worldwide, with varying methods of deployment.  You'd not be able to get them all to detonate at the same time even if you wanted to, but let's say you could.  Let's say, and be generous, that the average yield is 1 megaton.  It is likely lower since most of our nukes are now "tactical" and possess a yield of less than 200 kt, but let's just say.  If we blew up 10000 megatons of TNT (the equivalent of all these bombs, would it make the planet hotter than the sun?  Would it most importantly, kill all life down to the last microbe, or even the last human?  

Well, I figure to make the Earth hotter than the sun we'd at least have to boil all the water, if you meant the whole Earth, and I assume you did since it is well know that a nuclear blast itself may be hotter than the surface of the sun (6000 Celsius, unless you meant the core, which is 13,600,000 Celsius, but we'll go surface so you're actually right about at least one thing in a limited sense.  The temp at the very center of a fission bomb might exceed 1,000,000 C, but that quickly drops off with range) for a short time, but that wouldn't count for much, since it is such a miniscule area and only remains that hot for a short time.  So, I'll use the archaic version of the calorie here, where a calorie is the amount of energy required to raise the temperature of 1 gram of water one degree, from 14.5 C to 15.5 C.  10 gigatons would generate 9993312314890000 calories.  So how much water is in the worlds oceans, excluding lakes and atmospheric vapor?  About 326000000000000000000 gallons, and each gallon contains about 3785 grams of water.  So to compare ...
9993312314890000 calories
1233910000000000000000000 grams of water
You couldn't even raise all the water on earth 1 degree.  You couldn't do it if every bomb were 100 megatons.  And this is water we're raising the temp of, not basalt or granite, or even wood.  You could ask me if we could raise the temperature of all the air in the atmosphere to above 6000 C, but I can tell you now, no.  But feel free to run your own damn numbers for once instead of parroting doomsayers.  So about that life on Earth.  A 1 megaton bomb detonated at 2 km above its target (optimal) will destroy most civilian buildings out to 6.2 km from its center.  After that, the majority are left standing.  So let's say you could blow up most stuff, and again be really generous, out to 8KM.  That's 64 square kilometers of devastation.  With 10,000 bombs that's 640,000 square kilometers of destruction.  There are 148 million square kilometers of land on Earth, so you'd need about 3 million 1 megaton bombs to clear it of most structures instantly.  People do not live everywhere, but microbes do, and we're nowhere near the destruction levels needed to kill all of them.  But is it even likely we kill all of the people?  Well, you'd need to blow up 778000 square kilometers just to instantly kill about 50% of the Chinese.  So, in a word, no.  Welllllllll, how about if we want a lethal dose of radiation???  The lethal dose of radiation only extend to 2.9 kilometers from ground zero for a 1 megaton bomb, this being for acute radiation poisoning.  Beyond 20 kilometers and lethal poisoning from fallout drops to zero.  It is impossible to even kill off the entire population of China with the whole world's nuclear arsenal.  Well, what about the environmental effects?  They'd be devastating.  The global climate would be doomed to change bringing about another mass extinction, but I'd say humans are smart enough to adapt throughout, and life in general definitely would go on.  So, uhh, can we please never pretend the world will end in a nuclear apocalypse that turns its whole surface to molten glass again?  It's a very, very tired joke.

About prisoners, Psalm, saying that we should expect most of them to be Christian because most of the US is Christian doesn't speak very highly of Christianity, but nevermind that.  The problem isn't that there are Christians in prison, it's that 78% of prisoners are Christian with only 74% of the population in general being Christian.  Compare with atheists, who are only 0.2% of the prison population.  But then the Hindus are only .15% of the prison population, so maybe Hinduism is for real!  Oh, yeah, as an aside to your persecution rant, guess the prison population for Muslims in India.  Where only 10% of the population is Muslim, better than 30% of the prison population is Muslim.  Look at only the population incarcerated for one year or less and the Muslim population rises to 42%!  Looks like other religious groups can and do persecute religions aside from Christianity on a massive scale, in the modern day, too.  Oh, and if you don't think a group of angry Iranians would kill a Hindu or Buddhist or Christian or atheist in the street, you'd be more than a little wrong.  But how much more likely would they be to kill a gay?  Persecuted?  Christians?  You're the majority!  Any persecution you see rolls out of the hind end of the politically correct engine, these days.  Were Christians persecuted once?  No doubt.  Did they do most of the persecuting at another time in human history?  You bet.  The KKK persecuted blacks in far worse ways in modern times than any Christian in the US has endured for the sole sake of their religion.  The irony?  The KKK claims to be Christian, and indeed makes statements of their loyalty to Jesus with fervor.  How ironic that situation is depends how Christian you consider them.

For a change, you could consider it that bad people are bad regardless of beliefs.  "In the name of God" sounds no better, put to bad use, than "By order of Hitler" or "Because I want to".  Sure, atheism gives you the chance to think yourself the best damn thing in the universe, where a belief in God may not (depending on whether you want to say God counts inside the universe), but it's small peanuts what your position is in the universe if you're killing the rest of us.  But I don't kill others to suit myself (indeed, because I'd find it unsuitable), and neither do you, so this is clearly something that isn't directly bound to belief in your god.  Now, could you possibly make an argument that your religion makes people less likely to be murderous leaders?  Maybe, but I doubt it.  But even if you could, you will have established what?  Not the validity of your religion, just its benefit to the human psyche.  It being beneficial does not equate to it being true.  What would you say if we found Hindus make the best leaders?  Should we all convert?  No, we don't all want to be Hindus for varying reasons, and most of us do well enough without being Hindus.  So then, what are you getting at?  The religion that has the best effect on man is the true one?  Sweet, let's create a new science: Experimental Theology!  And when we find the one that is of most benefit, we'll have the truth!  Or not...

Finally, Pascal's Wager (that bogus 50/50 crap which I'm sure you've had the flaws pointed out to you before) and the idea that everyone that isn't a Christian is an atheist.  First off, this would make you an atheist, utilizing this magical logic, to anyone who was equally dogmatic and found you guilty of disclaiming their beliefs.  Only problem is we'd have to find a person using that same self-serving, self-invented version of the word, and that would be hard.  Theism is the belief in a god or gods, and it doesn't have any requisite that they exist to be believed in.  As to Pascal's Wager, what if Ra is the true god?  Vishnu?  Odin?  Guess you're screwed with the rest of us.  What if God has never been described in Earth scripture, and she is pissed that you've been mocking her reality by ignoring any inconvenient truths about it?  Like evolution or the age of the Earth.  What if Odin is pissed you believe a guy that never existed was crucified for your sins.  I mean, Odin hung from a tree for nine days and you don't even think about what that must have been like?  I believe in man's ability to divine the existence of and describe any existent gods about as much as I trust them to, without any prior knowledge, feel what the molecular structure of glucose, methane, ethane, and ethylene is, and describe all possible interactions with each accordingly.  "But God wanted us to know, so it's different."  You can believe that, but you have nothing but that belief backing you up.  Truthfully, you're putting more faith in man than I ever have, assuming this wasn't the product of desert myth.  You have no reason to believe it should be legit, just your hope that it is, and experiences you tie to being true, because you really want it to be true and those experiences must indicate it is.

I'd like for you to ask yourself why you believe in the Christian God, and then to read that answer as though you were me.  Or rather, as yourself, genuinely inspecting it to see if if it is a good reason.  Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree, and you find your answer satisfactory, but mine wasn't.  My only reason for being a Christian was that I just assumed it to be right (it was always my starting assumption), with the added bit that it made me feel good.  Sure I was scared of hell, but that's not a justification for believing since it is entirely a component of the belief in question.  The fear that Voldemort might get me is not justification for the truth of Harry Potter, but I could certainly argue the belief made me feel good and that it made perfect sense with the starting assumption it was 100% true.  Like I said, maybe you have a deeper reason, but it always seems to fall on something very insubstantial.  What will you say?  "The Bible looks like it was written by a god, and that god should obviously be God!" ... "I saw something I couldn't explain" ... "It made me happy, and before I was so sad" ...

Finally, you weren't an atheist if you really thought Satan was going to steal your soul.  And it's not really surprising a bunch of death metal left you angsty and depressed.  I'm sorry you almost killed yourself because of it, but I trust you can see why that isn't a sound justification for your belief in the Christian God.  Curio covered this.  I hope you'll come to see this, if truth is what you seek.  If it's happiness, then go where you are most happy.  I will not compromise my desire for truth with plain and comfortable assumptions.

[Tanker]

A few things I'll address.  There is nowhere near the amount of nuclear weapons available needed to make the Earth hotter than the sun, and definitely not in the possession of the United States alone.  There are some 9926 nuclear weapons kept on the ready, worldwide, with varying methods of deployment.  You'd not be able to get them all to detonate at the same time even if you wanted to, but let's say you could.  Let's say, and be generous, that the average yield is 1 megaton.  It is likely lower since most of our nukes are now "tactical" and possess a yield of less than 200 kt, but let's just say.  If we blew up 10000 megatons of TNT (the equivalent of all these bombs, would it make the planet hotter than the sun?  Would it most importantly, kill all life down to the last microbe, or even the last human?  

Well, I figure to make the Earth hotter than the sun we'd at least have to boil all the water, if you meant the whole Earth, and I assume you did since it is well know that a nuclear blast itself may be hotter than the surface of the sun (6000 Celsius, unless you meant the core, which is 13,600,000 Celsius, but we'll go surface so you're actually right about at least one thing in a limited sense.  The temp at the very center of a fission bomb might exceed 1,000,000 C, but that quickly drops off with range) for a short time, but that wouldn't count for much, since it is such a miniscule area and only remains that hot for a short time.  So, I'll use the archaic version of the calorie here, where a calorie is the amount of energy required to raise the temperature of 1 gram of water one degree, from 14.5 C to 15.5 C.  10 gigatons would generate 9993312314890000 calories.  So how much water is in the worlds oceans, excluding lakes and atmospheric vapor?  About 326000000000000000000 gallons, and each gallon contains about 3785 grams of water.  So to compare ...
9993312314890000 calories
1233910000000000000000000 grams of water
You couldn't even raise all the water on earth 1 degree.  You couldn't do it if every bomb were 100 megatons.  And this is water we're raising the temp of, not basalt or granite, or even wood.  You could ask me if we could raise the temperature of all the air in the atmosphere to above 6000 C, but I can tell you now, no.  But feel free to run your own damn numbers for once instead of parroting doomsayers.  So about that life on Earth.  A 1 megaton bomb detonated at 2 km above its target (optimal) will destroy most civilian buildings out to 6.2 km from its center.  After that, the majority are left standing.  So let's say you could blow up most stuff, and again be really generous, out to 8KM.  That's 64 square kilometers of devastation.  With 10,000 bombs that's 640,000 square kilometers of destruction.  There are 148 million square kilometers of land on Earth, so you'd need about 3 million 1 megaton bombs to clear it of most structures instantly.  People do not live everywhere, but microbes do, and we're nowhere near the destruction levels needed to kill all of them.  But is it even likely we kill all of the people?  Well, you'd need to blow up 778000 square kilometers just to instantly kill about 50% of the Chinese.  So, in a word, no.  Welllllllll, how about if we want a lethal dose of radiation???  The lethal dose of radiation only extend to 2.9 kilometers from ground zero for a 1 megaton bomb, this being for acute radiation poisoning.  Beyond 20 kilometers and lethal poisoning from fallout drops to zero.  It is impossible to even kill off the entire population of China with the whole world's nuclear arsenal.  Well, what about the environmental effects?  They'd be devastating.  The global climate would be doomed to change bringing about another mass extinction, but I'd say humans are smart enough to adapt throughout, and life in general definitely would go on.  So, uhh, can we please never pretend the world will end in a nuclear apocalypse that turns its whole surface to molten glass again?  It's a very, very tired joke.

About prisoners, Psalm, saying that we should expect most of them to be Christian because most of the US is Christian doesn't speak very highly of Christianity, but nevermind that.  The problem isn't that there are Christians in prison, it's that 78% of prisoners are Christian with only 74% of the population in general being Christian.  Compare with atheists, who are only 0.2% of the prison population.  But then the Hindus are only .15% of the prison population, so maybe Hinduism is for real!  Oh, yeah, as an aside to your persecution rant, guess the prison population for Muslims in India.  Where only 10% of the population is Muslim, better than 30% of the prison population is Muslim.  Look at only the population incarcerated for one year or less and the Muslim population rises to 42%!  Looks like other religious groups can and do persecute religions aside from Christianity on a massive scale, in the modern day, too.  Oh, and if you don't think a group of angry Iranians would kill a Hindu or Buddhist or Christian or atheist in the street, you'd be more than a little wrong.  But how much more likely would they be to kill a gay?  Persecuted?  Christians?  You're the majority!  Any persecution you see rolls out of the hind end of the politically correct engine, these days.  Were Christians persecuted once?  No doubt.  Did they do most of the persecuting at another time in human history?  You bet.  The KKK persecuted blacks in far worse ways in modern times than any Christian in the US has endured for the sole sake of their religion.  The irony?  The KKK claims to be Christian, and indeed makes statements of their loyalty to Jesus with fervor.  How ironic that situation is depends how Christian you consider them.

For a change, you could consider it that bad people are bad regardless of beliefs.  "In the name of God" sounds no better, put to bad use, than "By order of Hitler" or "Because I want to".  Sure, atheism gives you the chance to think yourself the best damn thing in the universe, where a belief in God may not (depending on whether you want to say God counts inside the universe), but it's small peanuts what your position is in the universe if you're killing the rest of us.  But I don't kill others to suit myself (indeed, because I'd find it unsuitable), and neither do you, so this is clearly something that isn't directly bound to belief in your god.  Now, could you possibly make an argument that your religion makes people less likely to be murderous leaders?  Maybe, but I doubt it.  But even if you could, you will have established what?  Not the validity of your religion, just its benefit to the human psyche.  It being beneficial does not equate to it being true.  What would you say if we found Hindus make the best leaders?  Should we all convert?  No, we don't all want to be Hindus for varying reasons, and most of us do well enough without being Hindus.  So then, what are you getting at?  The religion that has the best effect on man is the true one?  Sweet, let's create a new science: Experimental Theology!  And when we find the one that is of most benefit, we'll have the truth!  Or not...

Finally, Pascal's Wager (that bogus 50/50 crap which I'm sure you've had the flaws pointed out to you before) and the idea that everyone that isn't a Christian is an atheist.  First off, this would make you an atheist, utilizing this magical logic, to anyone who was equally dogmatic and found you guilty of disclaiming their beliefs.  Only problem is we'd have to find a person using that same self-serving, self-invented version of the word, and that would be hard.  Theism is the belief in a god or gods, and it doesn't have any requisite that they exist to be believed in.  As to Pascal's Wager, what if Ra is the true god?  Vishnu?  Odin?  Guess you're screwed with the rest of us.  What if God has never been described in Earth scripture, and she is pissed that you've been mocking her reality by ignoring any inconvenient truths about it?  Like evolution or the age of the Earth.  What if Odin is pissed you believe a guy that never existed was crucified for your sins.  I mean, Odin hung from a tree for nine days and you don't even think about what that must have been like?  I believe in man's ability to divine the existence of and describe any existent gods about as much as I trust them to, without any prior knowledge, feel what the molecular structure of glucose, methane, ethane, and ethylene is, and describe all possible interactions with each accordingly.  "But God wanted us to know, so it's different."  You can believe that, but you have nothing but that belief backing you up.  Truthfully, you're putting more faith in man than I ever have, assuming this wasn't the product of desert myth.  You have no reason to believe it should be legit, just your hope that it is, and experiences you tie to being true, because you really want it to be true and those experiences must indicate it is.

I'd like for you to ask yourself why you believe in the Christian God, and then to read that answer as though you were me.  Or rather, as yourself, genuinely inspecting it to see if if it is a good reason.  Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree, and you find your answer satisfactory, but mine wasn't.  My only reason for being a Christian was that I just assumed it to be right (it was always my starting assumption), with the added bit that it made me feel good.  Sure I was scared of hell, but that's not a justification for believing since it is entirely a component of the belief in question.  The fear that Voldemort might get me is not justification for the truth of Harry Potter, but I could certainly argue the belief made me feel good and that it made perfect sense with the starting assumption it was 100% true.  Like I said, maybe you have a deeper reason, but it always seems to fall on something very insubstantial.  What will you say?  "The Bible looks like it was written by a god, and that god should obviously be God!" ... "I saw something I couldn't explain" ... "It made me happy, and before I was so sad" ...

Finally, you weren't an atheist if you really thought Satan was going to steal your soul.  And it's not really surprising a bunch of death metal left you angsty and depressed.  I'm sorry you almost killed yourself because of it, but I trust you can see why that isn't a sound justification for your belief in the Christian God.  Curio covered this.  I hope you'll come to see this, if truth is what you seek.  If it's happiness, then go where you are most happy.  I will not compromise my desire for truth with plain and comfortable assumptions.

Wow pipebox i just reread through all this post and I was debating taking the time you have to answer these issues. Yo did a superb job and only missed one I will still take issue with. Good job and thank you.

Ok my remaining issue is Psalm's disregarding of Hitler's Christianity. You even stated he removed copies of the bible and replaced them with mein kampf. OK 2 seconds of searching has revealed Hitler's religious views in Mein Kampf lets take a look shall we.

I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2

Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 5

I had so often sung 'Deutschland über Alles' and shouted 'Heil' at the top of my lungs, that it seemed to me almost a belated act of grace to be allowed to stand as a witness in the divine court of the eternal judge and proclaim the sincerity of this conviction.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 5

Once again the songs of the fatherland roared to the heavens along the endless marching columns, and for the last time the Lord's grace smiled on His ungrateful children.

- Adolf Hitler reflecting on World War I, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 7

What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland; so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 8

But if out of smugness, or even cowardice, this battle is not fought to its end, then take a look at the peoples five hundred years from now. I think you will find but few images of God, unless you want to profane the Almighty.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 10

In short, the results of miscegenation are always the following: (a) The level of the superior race becomes lowered; (b) physical and mental degeneration sets in, thus leading slowly but steadily towards a progressive drying up of the vital sap. The act which brings about such a development is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator. And as a sin this act will be avenged.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 11

Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 1

Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight for the 'remaking' of the Reich as they call it.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 1

It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 2

(there are many many MANY more but I've taken enough space)

Well it seems that both god and religion had a significant part in hitler's life and his view of the world. These are just some quotes from one book. If hitlers own words written by his own hand don't convince you of his deep religious beleifs how about what this, according to you, atheists choice for the motto of the Nazi party? "Gott Mitt Uns" translated that is "Gods With Us" what a strange motto for an atheist to choose as his governments motto. I'm sorry that you don't want to admit Hitler was a Christian but he was and I would guess a very devout one. Just because you don't like what a man did does not mean you can disclaim them. Hell Stalin was a horrible man and an atheist but I have never heard and Atheist dispute this. You need to learn that depiste a mans belief in god he is still capable of horrible things.

Oh and while I remember a Budhist wouldn't kill a christian in the name of purging christians for budhaism that would be the complete oppostie of budahism. One might kill the other because he is a man and flawed but he's extermely unliky to do it in the "name" of Budahism.

[Tom62]

Adolph Hitler also remained a member of the Catholic Church and paid his Church taxes until the very end. In 1933 he granted the Catholic church extended privileges, like the right of self-governance, state sponsored religion education in schools, etc. His ultimate goal was to unite the Catholic and Evangelical churches to fight the old archenemy of Christianity (the Jews). Hitler deeply admired Martin Luther. Hitler's ideas about eradicating the Jews comes straight from Luther. Luther's work "On the Jews and Their Lies", which gives us an idea about how moral Luther's views were:

"Set fire to their synagogues and schools. Jewish houses should be razed and destroyed, and Jewish prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, curing, and blasphemy are taught, [should] be taken from them." Their rabbis [should] be forbidden to teach on pain of loss of life and limb."

This is a man held to be a moral authority? Luther also urged that "safe conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews," and that "all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them." What Jews could do was to have "a flail, an ax, a hole, a spade" put into their hands so "young, strong Jews and Jewesses" could "earn their bread in the sweat of their brow." Do you think any Fuhrer you may have heard of might have gleaned an idea or two from that last passage alone? In fact, think of Hitler while reading the next paragraph.

Luther proposed seven measures of "sharp mercy" that German princes could take against Jews: (1) burn their schools and synagogues; (2) transfer Jews to community settlements; (3) confiscate all Jewish literature, which was blasphemous; (4) prohibit rabbis to teach, on pain of death; (5) deny Jews safe conduct, so as to prevent the spread of Judaism; (6) appropriate their wealth and use it to support converts and to prevent the Jews' practice of usury; (7) assign Jews to manual labor as a form of penance.

Is there no clearer blueprint for the Final Solution than the works of one of Christianity's greatest reformers and moralists?
source: http://www.rationalresponders.com/hitle ... tin_luther

[karadan]

How sad this world has become since the days of Jesus.

For once, i couldn't agree more with one of your statements.

[karadan]

Pipebox and Curio, many thanks for the read in this thread. Your posts were amazing. Unfortunately i doubt Psalm23 will read them. It just wants to troll without a care for what you are actually saying. In fact, why hasn't it been banned yet? Others have been banned for less, surely.

[Recusant]

In fact, why hasn't it been banned yet?

 Psalm23 may be a sincere representative of Christianity whose arguments are characterized by their astounding ineptitude. He may be a sock puppet operated by a smirking clown exploiting Poe's Law.  Either way, fact that he can elicit such magnificent posts as that by PipeBox (in particular) as well as Tanker, et al. in this thread alone gives him my vote for continued access to this forum. (I admit it's a selfish reason, and won't carry any weight with the authorities here, not to mention that at some point there's a good chance nobody will bother replying to his dross.)
  Other than occasionally sounding very much as if he's preaching, I don't know that he's really violated any rules.  <~~My 2¢