PREP4Kids, religion classes during reg school hrs

[rlrose328]

Just found out about this today:

PREP4Kids in Oregon

Apparently there is a law in Oregon that states that schools must let kids out of school to attend alternate classes if the parent desires.  This organization (around 25 years???!?!) takes advantage of that to hold these reglious ed classes.  One of the local atheists I know went to a meeting for "volunteers" so she could find out more and she sent me copies of the newsletter and other forms.  WOW... this thing is set up expressly for the purpose of ministering to kids.  They get prizes for going, prizes for bringing a heathen (my word... they say "nonchurched") child to class, etc.  If you click on the Schools tab, you'll see my son's school in the "where we want to go next" section at the bottom, along with all of the elementary schools in our little town.  They try to sell it as a place for children to continue learning about god, but their recruitment and volunteer materials and the newsletter constantly talk about praying constantly, using this god-given group to minister to the great unwashed (again, my word... they say "nonchurched").

Yes, they can teach their children anything.  And yes, they can do so off school grounds if they choose.  But with the HUGE number of evangelical kids in our little school, I can easily see an outcast situation forming here.  Not to mention the teacher having to disrupt class for kids to go, having extra work to get lessons ready for the kids to have when they're not there.  It's disruptive and propagates and "us and them" situation.  Kids are very susceptible to peer-pressure.

Your thoughts?

ETA:  Oh, and the nearest church to my son's school IS my son's school since it's held at a church and there are plenty of rooms that the school itself doesn't pay for to use, so ostensibly, it can be held at the church, just in different rooms from the school.  And yes, it IS a public charter school.

[Ben-AG]

The school itself is not forcing any kind of religious doctrine on your child so they are within their boundaries.  If you are worried about peer pressure, that's another situation altogether.  The kids have a right to free speech and to practice their religion.  I think what you can do as a parent who disagrees with the religious doctrines is educate your children on your personal values and instill your claims in them.  If they are strong, they will hold true to your beliefs.  This applies to a Christian situation as well.  I would not go after a secular school for making my Christian child feel like an "outcast."  All I can do is educate my child and pray they hold strong to their ideals.

[Jolly Sapper]

The school itself is not forcing any kind of religious doctrine on your child so they are within their boundaries.  If you are worried about peer pressure, that's another situation altogether.  The kids have a right to free speech and to practice their religion.  I think what you can do as a parent who disagrees with the religious doctrines is educate your children on your personal values and instill your claims in them.  If they are strong, they will hold true to your beliefs.  This applies to a Christian situation as well.  I would not go after a secular school for making my Christian child feel like an "outcast."  All I can do is educate my child and pray they hold strong to their ideals.

I remember reading something about this, I'm trying to find a link.
Edit: Im not having any luck finding that link, it sorta mootifies my point  :hail: Linky is at the bottom

I don't think the problem is about "peer pressure" the problem is that the program states that if ANY student in a class left for the PREP4Kids meetings the teacher cannot move on to new material, assign homework, etc as it would leave that student behind in lectures/homework.  So if a student decides to (or whose parents decide for them) skip class to go to a PREP meeting, it holds the rest of the class back.  This is extremely messed up, especially in the US society where teachers are getting run through the ringer with claims that they are unable to teach their students what they need to know.  Think about how No Child Left Behind works, its all about standardized testing to assess where the students are against where they are "supposed" to be.  If a school's test scores are too low then they are put on probation, they loose federal (and probably state funding) all the while being told that if the scores don't come up the local state Education Board will have to step in and take over the school to force whatever chances are deemed necessary to try to increase the test scores.

So by allowing students to miss class for a religious meeting, while forcing those students who aren't missing class to get behind in their school work ( possibly causing problems with passing final exams), and forcing the teacher to get being in their syllabus (endangering their job) doesn't make sense.

This is what I had read about
Theocracy in California Public Schools

[Ben-AG]

The school itself is not forcing any kind of religious doctrine on your child so they are within their boundaries.  If you are worried about peer pressure, that's another situation altogether.  The kids have a right to free speech and to practice their religion.  I think what you can do as a parent who disagrees with the religious doctrines is educate your children on your personal values and instill your claims in them.  If they are strong, they will hold true to your beliefs.  This applies to a Christian situation as well.  I would not go after a secular school for making my Christian child feel like an "outcast."  All I can do is educate my child and pray they hold strong to their ideals.

I remember reading something about this, I'm trying to find a link.

I don't think the problem is about "peer pressure" the problem is that the program states that if ANY student in a class left for the PREP4Kids meetings the teacher cannot move on to new material, assign homework, etc as it would leave that student behind in lectures/homework.  So if a student decides to (or whose parents decide for them) skip class to go to a PREP meeting, it holds the rest of the class back.  This is extremely messed up, especially in the US society where teachers are getting run through the ringer with claims that they are unable to teach their students what they need to know.  Think about how No Child Left Behind works, its all about standardized testing to assess where the students are against where they are "supposed" to be.  If a school's test scores are too low then they are put on probation, they loose federal (and probably state funding) all the while being told that if the scores don't come up the local state Education Board will have to step in and take over the school to force whatever chances are deemed necessary to try to increase the test scores.

So by allowing students to miss class for a religious meeting, while forcing those students who aren't missing class to get behind in their school work ( possibly causing problems with passing final exams), and forcing the teacher to get being in their syllabus (endangering their job) doesn't make sense.

I would love to see that link.  I believe it's a flawed assumption that religious classes is the reason why kids are falling behind school.  That is such a broad and  generalized statement that can be applied to other things not just religious classes. I am also sure that the teachers are well aware of these classes beforehand and shape the syllabuses accordingly.  To not would only be irresponsible.  And, I referred to peer pressure because the OP had concerns with it.

[PipeBox]

If it provides an excuse to get out of classes kids don't want to take, but aren't normally optional, then I'm against it.  Skipping out on math to go learn about religion is not acceptable by me, and we've got enough people already who have a little too much Bible knowledge and too little science (not that they're opposed with the proper reading, but a simple, uninterpretive reading of the Bible before certain sciences can and does, I believe, lead to a shut mind).  When you've got people who think they're more qualified than astronomers, paleotologists, geologists, geneticist, cosmologists, and physicists to make a call on the veracity of scientific claims in each of these fields, you've got a problem.  See: Evangelicals; evolution; cosmology.  Schools, in my very-atheist eyes, should make more scientists than evangelicals.

[rlrose328]

Thanks for the input.

Here is what their pamphlet to parents says:

"Statute: ORS 339.420
"Upon application of the parent or guardian of the child, or, if the child has attained the age of majority, upon application of the child, a child attending public school for periods not exceeding two hours in any week for elementary pupils and five hours in any week for secondary pupils to attend weekday schools giving instruction in religion."

Here is the text from http://www.leg.state.or.us/ors/339.html:
"RELIGIOUS INSTRUCTION   339.420 Child excused to receive religious instruction. Upon application of the parent or guardian of the child, or, if the child has attained the age of majority, upon application of the child, a child attending the public school may be excused from school for periods not exceeding two hours in any week for elementary pupils and five hours in any week for secondary pupils to attend weekday schools giving instruction in religion."  [emphasis mine]

As you can see, the text in their pamphlet is missing some information.  Is that a deliberate omission (i.e., is the word "MAY" important in this law) or is that a typo?  According to their FAQ pamphlet, "Schools may not encourage or discourage participation or penalize students who do or do not attend."  But I don't see anything of that nature in the law as stated, unless they go to a bigger law about discrimination in general.

The pamphlet states:  "PREP4Kids is a non-profit, non-denominational Christian outreach to children attending public schools in the greater Portland area.  The mission of PREP4Kids is to help students and their families find purpose and direction in life by offering classes in the Bible within their weekly school schedule."  It also goes on to state that a "recent government study found that children in released-time classes did as well or better academically than their classmates who did not attend."  (I would like to see that study.)

On another sheet about Safety Policies, it states, "For 2-hour delayed openings [due to inclement weather], PREP classes will be held at their regularly scheduled times.  We realize this could be an inconvenience for some teachers since it might pull the children out of core class.  But since we only have these children about 1 hour a week to teach them God's word, we need to be jealous of this time and not let the school infringe on the parent's rights to their PREP class."    (Really?  Too darned bad if the teacher is put out??  Nice.)

Joe says he remembers a recent case (possibly posted on the ACLU Blog?  we can't find it...) about a school where this was implemented and almost the entire school went.  It was being held in a church across the street from the school.  Some kids didn't go, they were labeled as atheists or "other religions" and were shunned, made fun off, and bullied.  A few atheist kids ended up going just so they wouldn't be picked on.

Their tactics also include organizing the entire thing (finding a local church to have the classes, getting volunteers, contacting parents, signing kids up, and THEN approaching the school to say, "We're doing this and you can't do anything about it."  Kinda sneaky, don't you think?  Their materials specifically state that contacting the school is the LAST step... do not mention it to the principal until they have everything in place.

Finally, all of the materials discuss "ministry" and getting "nonchurched families" into the program, so they can be witness to god's grace and his word.  I believe this to be outside the spirit of the law, which may have been intended to cater to Muslims or other religions who have religious reasons to have a released-time class.  Granted, if other religions are allowed to participate, by all means, the Christians should too.  BUT... big BUT here... they are doing so in order to grow their churches, preach to other kids... not just do bible study with kids who are already Christian.  THAT is the fine line here... education VS. ministry.  And THAT'S what the part to which I (and other atheists and Jews at the schools) object.

[PipeBox]

Needs to be taken down.  I have a hunch that even though those studies of class performance don't exist, that if they did, they would be right.  When most of your class is absent, teachers tend to pass out worksheets or leave you to your own devices so long as you're contained.  I would know thanks to a lot of unique experiences throughout my middle and high school days.

[rlrose328]

Okie doke... we got word from the PREP4Kids folks that they are actively setting up groups for all of our small town's schools (3 grade schools, 1 middle school, 1 charter school).  They have volunteers ready and willing.  My neighbor called me this afternoon, asking if I'd heard.  LOL!

An atheist (who is not known as an atheist) is going to the volunteer meetings and attended a "class."  It was disgusting... prizes for all the kids... bigger prizes for those who brought "friends" to the "class."  She said they read a few bible verses and spent the remaining 40 minutes discussing how to get more kids in there "for god."  How to use "guilt" (though they didn't use that word) to make friends feel bad for not going, being sure to preach god's love and tell kids about hell so they'll want to go to the meeting.

I asked one of my coffee-friends (big-time fundie) if she'd heard of the program and she said not only did she, but she wants it, has volunteered before she had kids, and acknowledges it is an outreach ministry to help kids find god.  No hesitation whatsoever.

So... the god-watch is on.  If they have it in the church's non-school rooms, we will fight.  If there are ANY behavior problems or fights between the kids who go and those who don't, we will fight.  If neither of those things happen, we'll just keep watch.  

[SektionTen]

wow. that's gotta suck.  

[VanReal]

My biggest problem with this is them having the classes during the school day to begin with.  That is where I would focus my attention on this statute, not this particular organization.  I am horrified at the statement regarding "so be it if they miss core classes" from the religious organization.

Also, in reading the statute it apears that the parents need to request that their children be allowed to attend a class during school hours as an excused absence.  The word MAY in that statute leaves the discretion up to the school, so for instance, if you have a student that is struggling or not maintaining their current workload they could inform the parents that the absences would not be excused.  

I don't know how school funding occurs in Oregon.  Is it funded by the state? Property taxes? income taxes? Is there any WADA for funding?  (Weighted Average Daily Attendance) And I would search into some of the federal funding programs to see if absences of this sort are allowable to continue receiving funds.  I would go after the statute itself, not the organization.  Making the fact that this is for religious purposes a non-issue will allow for the argument against the statute more valuable.

Why not have these classes on Sundays, or after school or before school?  Kids don't get excused absences for participating in other non-UIL or non-school sanctioned extra-curricular activities.  The statute limits it to 2 hours per week for elementary and basically a period a day for secondary, this could easily be done outside of school hours where it would not disturb their studies.

The statute is flawed and should be inactivated, which may take a law suit if there are current supporters in the state legislative body.  Let me look at the federal laws and state education statutes for your state because I think there may be a regulation or ruling that overrules this.  Can I assume your kiddo's school receives federal funds?  (I ask because I am a school business administrator and have access to the regs, etc but my district accepts no federal funding so will need to brush up on that...)

[SSY]

Religion is surprisingly good at keeping people stupid, don't you think?

[Sophus]

Religion is surprisingly good at keeping people stupid, don't you think?

And stupid people are quite good at keeping religion around. It's a symbiotic relationship!

[rlrose328]

PREP4Kids is here and it's here to stay.  They now have permission slips for our school up on their website (put on sunglasses... it's an obnoxious YELLOW background).  As we knew they would, they put it all together and posted everything without a word to anyone and now all of the fundies and gellies are all tickled pink that they've managed to push through religious stuff for their kids.  Apparently, they've chosen a school that is centrally located for 3 of the schools and the other 2 will go to another church.  Coincidence... 2 members of the School Board go to these churches.  Strange, huh.     And they've chosen Wednesday (not Mon or Fri, days when school might be scheduled off for conferences or holidays), 12:45 to 2:00 (prime post-lunch instruction time... and at our school, math time).  

There is a group of 4 of us, with 2 reps from CFI and 1 from AU (American's United for Separation of Church and State) who are going to the next Board meeting to present a letter signed by all of us, and a few reps from the Jewish community.  We don't know any Muslims... tried to find some but none.  Mormons around here already take advantage of this released time to do "seminary" classes for high schoolers.  I'll be discussing the fact that we have very small classrooms sizes and a large percentage of religious folks at our school so if even half of the 22 students per classroom go, it will cripple the teacher's ability to conduct lessons, not to mention the extra work it gives the teachers to re-teach the lessons to those who missed.  It is our preference that they choose Monday at lunchtime so the teachers and kids don't stress.

One of the other moms involved on the keep-it-under-control side spoke with a principal at a school in the town down the road about the P4K program at his school that started 4 years ago.  He said it is a nightmare.  Kids come back to school with BAGS of candy and "penny toys" to pass out to their friends with little notes or "admission tickets" for the next meeting, so the kids get all excited about getting their OWN bag of candy/toys to share.  They bring back coloring booklets, sticker booklets, etc. and all the kids try to collect them.  This all brings class to a halt.  About half the kids in the school classes (or more) go to the meetings and after the first meeting, the teachers complained bitterly to him about "double-teaching" they have to do.  When one child consistently didn't turn in make-up work for lessons missed, his mom threatened the school with a lawsuit for picking on her kid for going to religious "instruction."  So the teachers, unbeknownst to him initially, gave coloring pages or puzzle pages to the remaining kids because it just made their job too hard.  And no teachers wanted to complain for fear of being sued by the religious parents, which was a real threat.  Said principal left that school and took a job in another town that hasn't been targeted yet and because he's afraid for his job, he won't come with us to the school board meeting on Wednesday.

I spoke with the Director of something and Learning at the school district offices who tried to tell me how cooperative they've been.  I asked her if, at any time, anyone from the organization had spoken to her directly.  Nope.  I asked if the paperwork she has from their organization was given to her by the organization or from a concerned parent.  A concerned parent.  I asked if they'd even considered ASKING what would be a good day and time for the kids and schools.  Nope.  If they are doing all of this behind our backs, how can that be cooperative?  Sounds to me like the SCHOOL DISTRICT has been cooperative, not P4K.

They don't care about the education of these kids (unless you put "religious" before the "E" word).  All they care about is saving their souls.  EVERYTHING I have from their rah-rah let's get started meetings and their newsletter is about getting more and more kids to the meetings by whatever means necessary.  And if they do that, I can't help wondering if they figure eventually, they can just move the "bible study" into the school itself to save the school the trouble.

So... I've never presented anything formal to a board like this.  I was a manager for many years, but it's been awhile and I'm not used to being so formal.  Any advice?  (And no, I'm not going to imagine them in their underwear... LOL!)  The hardest thing will be controlling my emotions... when I get frustrated and angry, I cry... and I've been crying more than usual over the past 4 days.

For the record... again... I fully support their right to pull their kids out of school for their religious activities.  It's the law and it's their right.  What I DON'T support is this attitude they have that their rights supercede my son's rights to a full day of instruction, even while they're gone AND their sneaking around to get it all in place.  The law is on THEIR SIDE!  Why the hiding and sneaking and such, like they'll be shot down and told no?!


"Lord, beer me strength." -- Jim from the Office

[Whitney]

At least Oregon didn't pass a bill that allows for a bible (not religions in general, only the bible) elective to be offered if students show interest....Texas did.

[rlrose328]

True, true.  I'd REALLY be up in arms.  Either that or suicidal.

You probably have released time in your state, too.  It's in 44 states and the overwhelming majority of the population don't have any idea what it is and how it's implemented.  Surprisingly, Texas has no specific released time laws, which is actually worse than having them because they can do whatever they want.  Nice.