Stupid Dream

[liveyoungdiefast]

I had a dream last night that at the post office/Fed ex whatever the hell it may have been, there was an express drop box, and there was 'someone will pray for this package' drop box. And my father was there and me and him ended up having a massive argument because I kept saying "What are you doing?! Prayer isn't going to do anything! PUT IT IN THE EXPRESS".

It's scary that in some parts of America that could happen.

But to make this somewhat more productive than a rant, don't you think some religious folks pray in the strangest ways? I guess praying for your family could make sense. But now they all have things where you can tell a religious person about a problem with someone you know, and suddenly an entire church is praying specifically for someone they don't know. Why not just say "God fix the whole world?". And why do they think massive numbers praying out in public is a good idea? Even their Bibles say Jesus didn't like that.

All I know is that if there are ever prayer requests at the US post office, me and my girlfriend are moving to somewhere in Europe (like Estonia) and never looking back.

[AlP]

I haven't remembered a dream in a while. This study about the ineffectiveness of prayer was published in the American Heart Journal in April 2006. It was funded but the Templeton Foundation, which amuses me. There are of course other studies that have found prayer to have positive effects.

Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in Cardiac Bypass Patients

Background: Intercessory prayer is widely believed to influence recovery from illness, but claims of benefits are not supported by well-controlled clinical trials. Prior studies have not addressed whether prayer itself or knowledge/certainty that prayer is being provided may influence outcome. We evaluated whether (1) receiving intercessory prayer or (2) being certain of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with uncomplicated recovery after coronary artery bypass graft (CABG) surgery.

Methods: Patients at 6 US hospitals were randomly assigned to 1 of 3 groups: 604 received intercessory prayer after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; 597 did not receive intercessory prayer also after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; and 601 received intercessory prayer after being informed they would receive prayer. Intercessory prayer was provided for 14 days, starting the night before CABG. The primary outcome was presence of any complication within 30 days of CABG. Secondary outcomes were any major event and mortality.

Results: In the 2 groups uncertain about receiving intercessory prayer, complications occurred in 52% (315/604) of patients who received intercessory prayer versus 51% (304/597) of those who did not (relative risk 1.02, 95% CI 0.92-1.15). Complications occurred in 59% (352/601) of patients certain of receiving intercessory prayer compared with the 52% (315/604) of those uncertain of receiving intercessory prayer (relative risk 1.14, 95% CI 1.02-1.28). Major events and 30-day mortality were similar across the 3 groups.

Conclusions: Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.

[Prometheus]

I hear ya man. I've always seen prayer as an attempt to control things which are beyond our control(Any ritual seems to do this. It seems to me kind of like saying, "Hey God, get off your ass and do me a favor." If the deity were all knowing there would be no point in praying anyway as he would see perfectly well whats going on and his actions would not be swayed by the wants of mere mortals. I see parallels here to buddhism. The monastic priests believe that buddha can't be prayed to. Yet they still honor him by circumventing his idols(Nothin wroing with this i suppose). The laymen pray to the guy all the time even though the scripture clearly states he can't hear you or doesn't care and also isn't a god(He's reached ultimate reality its really hard to define the difference between this and godhood. Gods seem to be petty corporial manifestations of "self" compared to the blissfull, carefree, omniscience offered by ultimate reality.).

[VanReal]

The monastic priests believe that buddha can't be prayed to. Yet they still honor him by circumventing his idols(Nothin wroing with this i suppose). The laymen pray to the guy all the time even though the scripture clearly states he can't hear you or doesn't care and also isn't a god(He's reached ultimate reality its really hard to define the difference between this and godhood. Gods seem to be petty corporial manifestations of "self" compared to the blissfull, carefree, omniscience offered by ultimate reality.).

Buddha was a man, nothing more and the only thing buddhists do as far as Buddha is concerned is follow his teachings on how to end human suffering, and they do not believe that a god or gods can do that.  Buddhism has nothing to do with god/gods and nothing in Buddha's teachings even mention nor address creation or any god.  I just wanted to clarify because buddhism is not a religion, although many buddhists are theists and also follow a religion, but many are atheists and apatheists as well as god nor creation is even mentioned in buddhism.

As far as the OP, sorry I jacked the thread for a second, prayer is confusing to me because I can't fathom asking someone to fix my problems, let alone someone that doesn't exist.  So while I think prayer is a waste of time and results in a lack of action of helping ones own condition, issue or dilemma, I think it can be cathardic for some that use it to reflect on the day or an event or to try to work through grief, etc.  Much like I often talk to myself or work through conversations or solutions in my head, and it's helpful to me, I think prayer for some is very helpful and suppose it's not the strangest thing people do.

[MommaSquid]

I had a sex dream last night (or early this morning).  Is it alright if I pray to have another one?      

[VanReal]

I had a sex dream last night (or early this morning).  Is it alright if I pray to have another one?      

[Prometheus]

Buddha was a man, nothing more and the only thing buddhists do as far as Buddha is concerned is follow his teachings on how to end human suffering, and they do not believe that a god or gods can do that. Buddhism has nothing to do with god/gods and nothing in Buddha's teachings even mention nor address creation or any god. I just wanted to clarify because buddhism is not a religion, although many buddhists are theists and also follow a religion, but many are atheists and apatheists as well as god nor creation is even mentioned in buddhism.

This isn't entirely accurate. You see I've studied asian religions during a few classes in college. I agree with most of what you said there but few(If any) buddhists would say that Buddha(There are many buddhas throughout past and future history. We are talking about a specific buddha named Siddhartha Gautama) was just a man(The traditional scriptures paint him as a very "Jesus-like" character. He found The four nobel truths and the 8 fold path(And a lot of other crap) all by himself and unlike the selfish Arhats he refused immediate ascention and stuck around to teach these things to the rest of us.). Buddhists tend to believe among many things that our physical world/reality is a delusion. They are in fact a very spiritual group in general. The goal of a buddha(Much more compassionate than an Arhat ) is to encourage the "awakening" of as many people as possible. World wide there definately are a multitude of buddhists with different belief systems but I challenge you to go to East asia and start telling people that buddhism is just a philosophy. Most Buddists believe that their belief system is the only way to reach Nirvana and that this sytem will indeed allow them to transcend the physical world and reach a very real state of ultimate understanding and bliss. I don't know how you define religion and philosophy but everything I've heard and read about buddism leads me to the very firm conclusion that it is a religion.

[AlP]

There are many buddhas throughout past and future history.

Wow. I'm sure you know more about Buddhism than me. What does Buddha in future history mean?

[Hat]

What a strange dream ._.

I've never had any religious themed dreams yet, but I do understand the confusion over prayer all too well. I can see why one would pray for their own family, it’s sort of natural to expect that in a religious family. However I never really understood why a whole town or church would pray for someone they more than likely didn't know, but I put that down to my own past experiences.

When I was born, I was born almost a whole three months early and with problems involving my heart and lungs. Due to a lot of complications, the doctors thought I wouldn't make it. During this time, my hometown apparently prayed for my well being and Mum says it’s because of their prayers that I’m here, where as I think I just got lucky. I have similar views on a situation involving one of my aunts, which upsets Mum as she is very close to said Aunt. The aunt had Breast Cancer a few years ago but she caught it early, got the operation, chemo and all is well now. Naturally, the family put it all down to their prayers being answered while I, once more, believe that she was just lucky and had great doctors.

In my opinion, prayer gets nothing done. You’d be better getting up and actually doing something. There is a picture that has my opinion on it, but I can't get it right now. I'll find it when I get home and edit my post o3o-b

[Prometheus]

Wow. I'm sure you know more about Buddhism than me. What does Buddha in future history mean?

A buddha is a person who has attained a perfect understanding of reality. According to the scriptures our reality isn't real. Our "selves" aren't even real. We simply have the delusion that we exist because of the "five aggregates." (I'm not a buddhist I just find the subject very interesting. If I were a theist, this is probably what I would believe. I just can't bring myself to believe in things I can't prove/see.) These aggregates are form, sensation, perception, volition, and consciousness. All of which we do indeed experience, but according to the Buddha, these things are insubstantial(They lack inherit reality/realness.). (Anyone ever see the Matrix? It was likely an allegory based on Buddhist teachings as well as some transcendentalist philosophy.) The Buddha implores us to seek a true understanding of reality. Once we stop clinging to these aggregates as well as things like reason, hunger, greed, etc, we will be free to experience ultimate reality(Nirvana) and thusly escape the cycle of rebirth/reincarnation(Its strange for us westerners to see this cycle as a bad thing. Seems like immortality right? To many Easterners, life is seen as torture. We constantly suffer, want, and accumalate karma(Most things we do are a "sin". Because we must take life to live and give in to our urges to eat and breath/etc(These urges are seen as false. If you were to stop breathing now you would only appear to die according to Siddhartha. Its all part of this illusion/delusion we call reality.) Karma is a metaphysical "goo" which clings ot us and weighs us down to this world when we die(Preventing a very literal ascention toward Nirvana).)). A Buddha isn't content with merely attaining Nirvana for himself(There are no female Buddhas as far as I know. The hindu/buddhist/jainist belief systems are very sexist. Through reincarnation we supposedly travel up or down in "status" based on the merits of our past life. The hierarchy goes something like this. Microbe, bug, rat, cat, dog, lower caste female, lower caste male, higher caste female, higher caste male, Goddess, god, and the highest state of being, Nirvana. You can fill in the gaps I think. You have to be a high caste male to reach enlightenment in most hindu systems(Buddhism is different. Anyone(Apparently even a bug or microbe) can potentially ascend during this life time so long as they follow/live the teachings. The idea with other eastern systems is to just work your way up the ladder by being the best bug you can be  My impression is that every Buddhist has a slightly different view on all this. And with reality being a sham and all it seems very hard to argue with them :hmm: Apparently I'm on the path to ascention here cause this all confuses the hell outta me.

[VanReal]

Buddha was a man, nothing more and the only thing buddhists do as far as Buddha is concerned is follow his teachings on how to end human suffering, and they do not believe that a god or gods can do that. Buddhism has nothing to do with god/gods and nothing in Buddha's teachings even mention nor address creation or any god. I just wanted to clarify because buddhism is not a religion, although many buddhists are theists and also follow a religion, but many are atheists and apatheists as well as god nor creation is even mentioned in buddhism.

This isn't entirely accurate. You see I've studied asian religions during a few classes in college. I agree with most of what you said there but few(If any) buddhists would say that Buddha(There are many buddhas throughout past and future history. We are talking about a specific buddha named Siddhartha Gautama) was just a man(The traditional scriptures paint him as a very "Jesus-like" character. He found The four nobel truths and the 8 fold path(And a lot of other crap) all by himself and unlike the selfish Arhats he refused immediate ascention and stuck around to teach these things to the rest of us.). Buddhists tend to believe among many things that our physical world/reality is a delusion. They are in fact a very spiritual group in general. The goal of a buddha(Much more compassionate than an Arhat ) is to encourage the "awakening" of as many people as possible. World wide there definately are a multitude of buddhists with different belief systems but I challenge you to go to East asia and start telling people that buddhism is just a philosophy. Most Buddists believe that their belief system is the only way to reach Nirvana and that this sytem will indeed allow them to transcend the physical world and reach a very real state of ultimate understanding and bliss. I don't know how you define religion and philosophy but everything I've heard and read about buddism leads me to the very firm conclusion that it is a religion.

Yes, I understand your point, but the fact that there is no mention of a god or gods or attaining an afterlife, etc., I don't view it as a religion.  I see it more as a "free your mind and your ass will follow" type of attempt to the ending of suffering by removing materialistic and traditonal thoughts on the human condition and that gods can't affect change.  However, the reincarnation thing is beyond me.  My point was really only that buddhism does not teach (or even speak of) any higher power, a relationship people should have with a higher power, what a higher power can do for you etc.  So, it's an interesting group as there are religious folks, believers, non-believers, etc.

[Prometheus]

Yes, I understand your point, but the fact that there is no mention of a god or gods or attaining an afterlife, etc., I don't view it as a religion. I see it more as a "free your mind and your ass will follow" type of attempt to the ending of suffering by removing materialistic and traditonal thoughts on the human condition and that gods can't affect change. However, the reincarnation thing is beyond me. My point was really only that buddhism does not teach (or even speak of) any higher power, a relationship people should have with a higher power, what a higher power can do for you etc. So, it's an interesting group as there are religious folks, believers, non-believers, etc.

Depends on how you define "higher power." I agree with you if you when you talk about the gods. Gods aren't viewed by Buddhists to be of any/much importance in attaining Nirvana. However the cycle of death and rebirth(Reincarnation) believed in by Buddhists/Hindus/Jains does contain numerous gods. Supposedly each of us could potentially become a god in the next life. These gods are higher up the hierarchy than humans but still not "perfect" beings and can't really help people attain Nirvana(I do recall one sect in which this is not true. They believe that by imploring a certain diety to take pity on you(As well as living a clean and pious life and humbling yourself before said deity) you can attain Nirvana/Kevala without personally attaining spiritual enlightenment(Knowledge of the inherit nature of Ultimate Reality)).

So I agree somewhat with you in that most Buddhists don't submit to the will of a deity to reach Nirvana and this makes them somewhat different than most other theists. But when you talk about afterlife it seems that you have been misinformed. Buddhists believe wholly in an afterlife(Nirvana) and it is this fact that most strongly makes me define Buddhism as a religion. Here is how Wiki defines religion, "A religion is an organized approach to human spirituality which usually encompasses a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices, often with a supernatural or transcendent quality, that give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life through reference to a higher power or truth."

The fact that Buddhists believe in a very literal, spriritual/supernatural "truth"(Ultimate Reality/Universal Harmony) makes them a religion. They believe that they will literally live on after this life is over in a state of eternal bliss and infinite understanding(Assuming they are VERY good Buddhists). I'm sure not everyone who defines themselves as a Buddhist(I'm refering to "new age americans mostly") would agree with this but I'm sure that the majority of Buddhists(Most of which live in rural east asia where the religion has been practiced for over 2 millenia) would agree with me completely when I say that Buddhism is definately a religion.