Psychology behind conversion urge

[Prometheus]

I been kicking this one around for a while and I think its pretty solid. I've always wondered why theists want to convert us. I've put a lot of thought in this and other than the obvious reasons(Increasing the influence of their group. Saving our souls(Out of compassion or just to suck up to their deity.)) I've come up with a theory.

First I need to establish a few things which I believe to be true. Theists get a sense of purpose and self worth from either their personal belief in their deity(An assurity of righteousness, benediction, and an afterlife(Immortality and bliss. They have no fear of death or responsibility for the flaws in Earth's system.).) or their belonging to a community which is all about saying in essence, "We're awesome and everyone else sucks!". We've been putting way too much thought into this guys cause it ain't a damn bit simpler than my last statement.

So those things established I'm gonna delve into the mind of a theist. I'm walkin along feeling awesome and self-righteous, and I encounter a this creepy looking dude named Alex. He's just sitting there lookin at ants and he says, "One of them bit me. Why would they do that? I wasn't hurting them." So I say, "It was gods will." And the creepy guy laughs, quiet maniacly I might add, and says, "there is no god." I panic, Doesn't this moron know that theres a god and that I'm awesome? If theres no god, then I'm not awesome. And if I'm not awesome, well, lifes just not fun anymore. So I have to convince this fool to change his ways. I'm telling myself its because I want to save his soul but subconsciously I know that its just because without my belief system, I am nothing. I am weak-willed, unsure of myself and my place in life/the world, and I have no purpose. "Please god, give me the strength to save this guys soul."

You guys see what I'm getting at here? Its so simple. We're strong, independant people who don't need a deity or group to give us self worth. I believe most theists are not strong or independant and are in fact thralls to our culture, doing and believing what they think will gain them everyones adoration/respect/love. Any thoughts?

[joeactor]

Hey Prometheus,

Although your theory may fit some people, I don't see it as the norm.  In my view, people are generally motivated by positive intent.  Granted, their mental state may affect what they think of as "positive".

But I digress.

Here's a different view for you:

The child on the train tracks analogy:
If you saw a child on a train track and there was a train coming, would you feel compelled to save them?
Even with the possibility of harm to yourself?
This is the view of (some) theists.
You are the child.  The train is the danger to your eternal soul.
Based on what they "know" (ie. believe), you are in danger and don't see it.
As one who sees the obvious danger, they feel compelled to save you.

Many theists are really good people, and operate from a positive motivation.  They don't think in terms of "being better than others" (tho it may appear as such).  They think in terms of how fortunate it is that they are safe from the train, and want to help others find the same safety.

On another note: why would anyone choose a belief they thought was inferior?  By its very nature, their belief must be superior to others, yes/no?  Don't you think that your position is superior?  Why would you choose otherwise?

It's difficult to see from another's perspective - but it is an absolute necessity if you want to really communicate with them.  Or convert them ;-)

JoeActor

[Prometheus]

You're not udnerstanding what I'm saying. Consciously your scenario plays out but what I'm talking about is the subconscious urge behind conversion(Of course the compassion you mentioned could still be there especially when you're dealing with family and friends.). I have no problems again with theists who will rationally debate the issue. But I still believe that theists tend to be more comfortable in groups(Groups with an obvious superiority myth) as opposed to most atheist/agnostics who seem to be for the most part comfortable standing alone. We  too have a superiority "myth" I suppose. One based on the superiority of our reasoning/logic.

On another note: why would anyone choose a belief they thought was inferior? By its very nature, their belief must be superior to others, yes/no? Don't you think that your position is superior? Why would you choose otherwise?

No one would choose a belief system they thought to be inferior. That's what I've been saying. Consciously Theists believe their belief system makes them superior to people outside their group(Even other theists). I'm just saying that subconsciously there mind must be aware of how irrational some of the things they say and believe are. Look at how easily we can discard reason/morals/etc when it doesn't suit our purposes. I'm saying that humans have the ability to be perfectly irrational while fooling their consciousness into believing otherwise. It would seem to allow for uniform group conformity even when individuals don't agree with whats going on.

It's difficult to see from another's perspective - but it is an absolute necessity if you want to really communicate with them. Or convert them ;-)

Definately true(I'm a little upset that you seem to be suggesting I haven't tried to see from their persepctive. I've spent years trying to do this and of course none of us can completely achieve this.(Yourself included. It would involve abandoning completely all your beliefs and prejudices. This simply cannot be done.)). I have no interest in converting anyone. I simply try to understand what makes theists believe the way they do. I believe that in general my theory is accurate. Again there are plenty of rational theists and also plenty who don't try to convert everyone they see(I have a very religious uncle who has never bothered me about my beliefs).

[joeactor]

I believe I understood your premise.  I just don't agree with it.

One of the base assumptions that you seem to be making is that the human mind (be it conscious, sub-conscious, or un-conscious) is rational and/or logical in nature.  In my experience, this is not the case.  Certainly the human mind is based on personal experience, and reaction to stimuli.  This does not mean it is subject to logic, or the same rigorous criteria for proof that science demands.  Often, the human mind bases its assumptions on anecdotal evidence and personal experience.  It is often erroneous in both thinking and conclusions.

I don't think that most theists are making a choice on any mental level to forward their agenda.  Rather, they are simply supporting their world view, and extending it out into their environment.  All of us must make choices when we see something that doesn't match our world view.  We can examine it, incorporate it, or ignore it - among other choices.  Everyone, theists and atheists, employ these coping mechanisms.

Strange as it may sound, trying to see another's perspective by thinking it through may not produce a true window on their beliefs or motivations.  There is a type of emotional thinking that people rely on that does not always conform to logic or reason.  It is via this empathetic connection to others that true understanding can emerge.  I'm not sure it yields well to a formal scientific study.  Maybe that is why so many questions about ourselves remain elusive.

Heck, if the operations of the human mind yielded so easily to logic, we'd have it all figured out by now.

Or not.

(hoping others chime in too),
JoeActor

[VanReal]

First I need to establish a few things which I believe to be true. Theists get a sense of purpose and self worth from either their personal belief in their deity... or their belonging to a community which is all about saying in essence, "We're awesome and everyone else sucks!". We've been putting way too much thought into this guys cause it ain't a damn bit simpler than my last statement.

I think I agree with the first part of the thought, they probably do get a sense of purpose and self-worth from their beliefs and for most their beliefs have a lot to do with how they think and feel about things so it is a big part of who they are.  I don't agree with the last part though, as most theists I know aren't "high and mighty" or condescending towards others, I see it as more of a confusion that other people don't feel and think like they do with regard to their belief about a higher power and what that means in their life.

I panic, Doesn't this moron know that theres a god and that I'm awesome? If theres no god, then I'm not awesome. And if I'm not awesome, well, lifes just not fun anymore. So I have to convince this fool to change his ways. I'm telling myself its because I want to save his soul but subconsciously I know that its just because without my belief system, I am nothing. I am weak-willed, unsure of myself and my place in life/the world, and I have no purpose. "Please god, give me the strength to save this guys soul."

I don't think they would go through the though process because it's describing as if they don't really believe in their higher power but rather put on the act so they can be awesome.  There are a lot of things people will lie about or do in order to be seen as important but I don't think that people that are actual believers have these thoughts in their heads because it's something they actually feel and believe, it's a big part of who they are but they aren't likely to worry that they aren't important because someone else doesn't believe.

You guys see what I'm getting at here? Its so simple. We're strong, independant people who don't need a deity or group to give us self worth. I believe most theists are not strong or independant and are in fact thralls to our culture, doing and believing what they think will gain them everyones adoration/respect/love. Any thoughts?

I don't see myself as stronger or more independent that someone that believes, I just simply don't and can't believe and that is a very minor part of who I am.  I am sure there are many fakers out there that go with the flow or say things about religion, use it to gain something etc., but I don't think theists believe simply because it may gain them something.  To be able to believe in something is difficult if it's not coming from a personal and honest place in ones self, I don't think or agree that theists are running around pretending to believe or choosing to believe just to have adoration/respect/love or that their belief makes them weak and/or dependent.  

Your description kind of makes theists look like politicians, only pretending to believe in something or convincing themselves to believe to gain something or work an agenda.  I don't think believers believe out of some effort, and likewise don't think an urge to covert nonbelievers is derived from a need to be looked at as important/awesome/superior etc.  While I don't know what makes them believe, I would suggest more of a wish fullfillment or need for there to be something else or a reason for being, so there is probably some pschology that could determine why some people can believe and some can't but I don't think it's personal deviance on the part of the believer to attain a foothold on awesomeness. (Is that a word?)

[Prometheus]

All good points guys. You ever read any Proust Joeacter? That empathy thing you mentioned is right out of his philosophy. Basically proust thought that truth and understanding can only be gained by seeing through the eyes of everyone in existence simultaneously. Its like abandoning each of our individual perspectives and becoming completely neutral(This would be a good mindset for a judge or juror). I myself reject this principle/philosophy. I think that best way for our society/culture to function is with everyone embracing their individual beliefs. This allows a sort of constantly evolving/fluctuating system capable of adapting hopefully to any situation. I never set out to really alter this fluctuating state. We need theists(Not really sure why. I just sense that our culture would be lacking something without them.) and some people need to beleive in such things(They can't live purely rational/non-spiritual lives.).

Your description kind of makes theists look like politicians,

I can't decide who this is insulting more, the theists or the politicians rofl kidding. I agree with what followed about their reasons for being theists. I still consider my theory a facet of the source of their need to convert however(At least for some theists). If I really meant to do damage to theism(Not interested in this at the moment) I might throw out here some of my theories concerning how and why theistic communities are so efficient at ethnicide and cultural displacement.

[AlP]

One of the base assumptions that you seem to be making is that the human mind (be it conscious, sub-conscious, or un-conscious) is rational and/or logical in nature. In my experience, this is not the case. Certainly the human mind is based on personal experience, and reaction to stimuli. This does not mean it is subject to logic, or the same rigorous criteria for proof that science demands. Often, the human mind bases its assumptions on anecdotal evidence and personal experience. It is often erroneous in both thinking and conclusions.

Yeah I'm totally with you on this one. I'm a software engineer both at work and in my free time. I do a lot of conceptual thinking. But thinking about most of the things I do, I don't think about them conceptually let alone logically. I just started making some pasta. I did it on full autopilot without really thinking about it at all. I've done it a thousand times before.

I don't think that most theists are making a choice on any mental level to forward their agenda. Rather, they are simply supporting their world view, and extending it out into their environment. All of us must make choices when we see something that doesn't match our world view. We can examine it, incorporate it, or ignore it - among other choices. Everyone, theists and atheists, employ these coping mechanisms.

I think that for most theists, conceptual thinking is going to happen with regard to their religion if only for a minority of the time.

Strange as it may sound, trying to see another's perspective by thinking it through may not produce a true window on their beliefs or motivations. There is a type of emotional thinking that people rely on that does not always conform to logic or reason.

Agreed.

It is via this empathetic connection to others that true understanding can emerge. I'm not sure it yields well to a formal scientific study. Maybe that is why so many questions about ourselves remain elusive.

Heck, if the operations of the human mind yielded so easily to logic, we'd have it all figured out by now

But now I don't follow. It seems you contradicted yourself?

[karadan]

Can it not be a lot more simple? Religious people who try to convert others know deep down what they promote is incorrect. It is the same as a salesman who uses the hard sell. They push a product hard because their product really isn't very good. If it was, it would sell itself. If religion was so awesome, its peons wouldn't have to convert others. It would do it all on its own.

[joeactor]

But now I don't follow. It seems you contradicted yourself?

... I did say the human mind wasn't logical ;-)

Please elaborate on where you see the contradiction.

Can it not be a lot more simple? Religious people who try to convert others know deep down what they promote is incorrect. It is the same as a salesman who uses the hard sell. They push a product hard because their product really isn't very good. If it was, it would sell itself. If religion was so awesome, its peons wouldn't have to convert others. It would do it all on its own.

That doesn't sound more simple.
This also carries the same assumption that religioius people are dishonest with themselves and others.
Simple to me is that they really believe it, and they promote what they believe.

Shaving with Occam's Razor (ouch!),
JoeActor

[Prometheus]

Can it not be a lot more simple? Religious people who try to convert others know deep down what they promote is incorrect. It is the same as a salesman who uses the hard sell. They push a product hard because their product really isn't very good. If it was, it would sell itself. If religion was so awesome, its peons wouldn't have to convert others. It would do it all on its own.

Good post.

... I did say the human mind wasn't logical ;-)

Rofl. That sounds almost like a Bushism. (Imagine George Bush's voice) The very fact, Heheh, that my statement is illogical only proves how perfectly logical, heheh, my statement is.

That doesn't sound more simple.
This also carries the same assumption that religioius people are dishonest with themselves and others.
Simple to me is that they really believe it, and they promote what they believe.

Shaving with Occam's Razor (ouch!),
JoeActor

You just said that the human mind isn't logical. This in itself is sort of dishonest when you consider that each of us often try to reason with one another(Share beliefs and philosophies). Sure we could all just accept what theists say and do at face value but why should we? As to the Occam's Razor reference, your assuming that all theists' intentions are pure is exactly the same as us assuming that they are not. Applying the principle of Occam's Razor gains you exactly zero sway in this arguement. I don't see that you're making any more of a point against our arguements as we are making for them. The point where this issue becomes caustic to me(I feel justified in criticizing the theists) is when they overstep their bounds and actually try to convert us. I myself never try to convert theists and just don't see the fact/nonfact that they think they are doing us a favor as a valid excuse for them to try to force their beliefs on us. Its just too convenient and seems to cheat us of our justifiable outrage at their attempts to change our beliefs.

[AlP]

Strange as it may sound, trying to see another's perspective by thinking it through may not produce a true window on their beliefs or motivations. There is a type of emotional thinking that people rely on that does not always conform to logic or reason. It is via this empathetic connection to others that true understanding can emerge. I'm not sure it yields well to a formal scientific study. Maybe that is why so many questions about ourselves remain elusive.

But now I don't follow. It seems you contradicted yourself?

... I did say the human mind wasn't logical ;-)

Please elaborate on where you see the contradiction.

I read it again and I think I understand what you mean. I don't agree though. I think there are no empathic connections. Complex human interactions that I don't understand happen. But there is no empathic connection. I'm convinced of that. How does it manifest? Can you explain it in terms I might understand?

Actually I think you might be using a figure of speech. If so disregard this comment.

[liveyoungdiefast]

I think falling into religion is mostly emotional. Intelligence can be distorted by religion and ultimately can atrophy but for the most part it was emotions that drew someone into the trap in the first place.

[karadan]

But now I don't follow. It seems you contradicted yourself?

That doesn't sound more simple.
This also carries the same assumption that religioius people are dishonest with themselves and others.
Simple to me is that they really believe it, and they promote what they believe.

Shaving with Occam's Razor (ouch!),
JoeActor

I'm not sure honesty has anything to do with it (for the most part - people like Kent Hovind are an exception, of course). A truly deluded person doesn't know of their own delusion although I'm pretty sure they can be consciously aware of the fallacy they subscribe to. They just choose to ignore it. I used the high pressure salesman example simply because the things going on in the brain are very similar.

There are motivational guru's out there. Many of the techniques they use to rev people up are also used in the sales industry and religion. I've felt that sense of euphoria before when sat amongst an audience watching a guy on stage with a head-mic with seemingly boundless energy. It was this enthusiasm which let to me wasting 3 months of my life trying to sell a crap product to people who didn't want it. It never really crossed my mind that what I was selling was shit but I did know it was shit. The only thing which kept me enthused was the daily motivational seminar.

Many years ago my dad used to sell something called Herbalife. If you've not heard of it, it is energy drinks and protein pills etc. I'm sceptical of its purported benefits but my dad seemed to like it. The only thing about that company was, the way in which it was sold. You can't buy it in a shop. You can only buy it from 'dealers' who are part of a pyramid style scheme. The only way they can keep people revved up enough to sell this stuff is through massive (and I mean massive) motivational seminars. I remember my dad being so energetic and full of life during those times. He was so into it, he couldn't stop talking about how badass Herbalife was. Then the crash came. He eventually realised he'd spent his savings on a promise which never came to fruition. The only reason he carried on dishing out cash was because of all these motivational seminars and the promises which unfortunately turned out to be hollow. Lesson learnt I guess.

Anyways, the urge to convert, I'm sure, comes from wanting others to feel as awesome as you do regardless of whether the product is good or not. So maybe it isn't even the religion people are trying to promote but just the sense of awe and wonder the reverend was able to instil in them, and they want to share it. Regardless of the above, religion has to be pushed in order to gain followers. This would suggest to me that religion is an inherently crappy product.

[VanReal]

I'm not sure honesty has anything to do with it (for the most part - people like Kent Hovind are an exception, of course). A truly deluded person doesn't know of their own delusion although I'm pretty sure they can be consciously aware of the fallacy they subscribe to. They just choose to ignore it. I used the high pressure salesman example simply because the things going on in the brain are very similar.

There are motivational guru's out there. Many of the techniques they use to rev people up are also used in the sales industry and religion. I've felt that sense of euphoria before when sat amongst an audience watching a guy on stage with a head-mic with seemingly boundless energy. It was this enthusiasm which let to me wasting 3 months of my life trying to sell a crap product to people who didn't want it. It never really crossed my mind that what I was selling was shit but I did know it was shit. The only thing which kept me enthused was the daily motivational seminar.

Many years ago my dad used to sell something called Herbalife. If you've not heard of it, it is energy drinks and protein pills etc. I'm sceptical of its purported benefits but my dad seemed to like it. The only thing about that company was, the way in which it was sold. You can't buy it in a shop. You can only buy it from 'dealers' who are part of a pyramid style scheme. The only way they can keep people revved up enough to sell this stuff is through massive (and I mean massive) motivational seminars. I remember my dad being so energetic and full of life during those times. He was so into it, he couldn't stop talking about how badass Herbalife was. Then the crash came. He eventually realised he'd spent his savings on a promise which never came to fruition. The only reason he carried on dishing out cash was because of all these motivational seminars and the promises which unfortunately turned out to be hollow. Lesson learnt I guess.

Anyways, the urge to convert, I'm sure, comes from wanting others to feel as awesome as you do regardless of whether the product is good or not. So maybe it isn't even the religion people are trying to promote but just the sense of awe and wonder the reverend was able to instil in them, and they want to share it. Regardless of the above, religion has to be pushed in order to gain followers. This would suggest to me that religion is an inherently crappy product.

I like this, and it really is something that could be a thread of it's own: "the psychology of the salesman", hehe.    But, while I can see the parallel I have a little difficulty because the main function of the salesman is to get others to use their product for their own personal gain.  Barring the jehovah's witnesses and mormons that are instructed to go out recruiting I don't think that this example fits for the people that are just religious and on their own have the urge to convert.  The people believe in the product (religion) first, see and feel its benefits, and then want to bring people to that product for that person's (potential convertee) benefit not their own.  

I would compare this more to someone in a movement, like say a person who believes we should bring our own bags and not use plastic.  I have my own bags, carry my own bags, and it makes me feel good to not have to dispose of the plastic ones and to know that what I am doing matters, even if only to me.  I now feel that it's important other people carry their own bags too, for their own good and the good of our environment, but it does not benefit me directly as I don't sell or manufactuer the resusable bags and have no profit in them using them.  I simply know that it makes me feel good that I'm doing my part and want others to be educated about it and to feel good about their choice to bring their own bags too.  I don't have anyone motivating me to convert people from plastic, although there are other people that share my thoughts on this, but that shared belief doesn't give me the urge to convert.

I'm just thinking it's not really accurate to consider religious people that attempt to convert  people to their religion are doing so out of some "strength in numbers" need or because they have to do so to prove their product doesn't suck.  I think they have to start with some genuine belief that religion is a postivie thing in their lives and they want to shre that with others. Now of course I am excluding folks that actually profit from religion like faith healers and millionare preachers that pary on old ladies, they are all way worse than sales man.  I am just talking about the average religious Joe or Jane.

[SallyMutant]

There are the  pushy hard core conversion theists, there are the money-grubbing bastard theists and there are the  sane-but-somehow -still-theists who, for example,  build a Habitat for Humanity house and pray  a bit before and after they've done a genuinely good deed.  The conversion urge among folks who do real good usually takes the form of  not discussing conversion and setting an admirable example that prays a bit.
Why do I find myself constantly defending the sane religious on this forum????