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Ask an Ex–Muslim…

Started by Kodanshi, March 13, 2009, 03:47:29 PM

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Kodanshi

…anything you want! I’ll try and accommodate you as best as I can. :)
[size=85]“I've been planning to end at 1 hp for years now.”[/size]

Will

I like to talk about how the Bible and Qur'an both are inconsistent about calls to violence because it's such a common perception in the West that Muslims are violent. The flip side, when I speak to Muslims, is the perception that the Qur'an is completely void of any calls for violence.

I've always suspected that most Muslims are aware that some passages in their holy text do call for violence, but they refuse to admit it to people that aren't Muslim. Is my insane conspiracy theory correct?
I want bad people to look forward to and celebrate the day I die, because if they don't, I'm not living up to my potential.

Kodanshi

Partly yes and partly no. You see, I don’t consider it a conspiracy theory as such, but religious brainwashing and sincere belief in this interpretation. You see, the Bible depicts violent acts but presents them as a story of what people did. Despite antiâ€"Islâmic people claiming that the Qur’ân preaches a violent way of acting, it too simply gives stories and transcriptions of ‘treaties’ and declarations of war waged by Muhammad and his ummah (Islâmic community as a whole).

The problem comes with the fact that muslims throughout the ages have held Muhammad up as a shining example of perfection for all mankind to follow. Which tends to mean that they base their actions on passages in the Qur’ân or, more usually, tales about him in the ahadith (Traditions, plural; ‘hadith’ represents the singular). So people tend to take declarations in the Qur’ân as examples of conduct of war â€" except the more fundamental don’t stick to that. Nowhere does Muhammad endorse suicide bombing, for example, although he does view martyrdom in a violent context (whereas I grew up in Britain so saw martyrdom in a more Christian light: dying for your beliefs via persecution, etc).

Cultures and views on human activities change and can change radically. Greeks used to bum boys, for example. Britain banned homosexuality, but now does not view it as a crime. People’s perceptions change. In the same way, the earlier muslims, carving out conquering territories, referred to violent passages in a positive light. Nowadays, with muslims integrating into Western countries and wanting to live peaceable lives, these sorts of declarations embarrass them, and they try to confine it to the context of ‘revelation’ at that time.

However, using that logic you can tie anything in the Qur’ân to the context at that time 1400 years ago, and say it doesn’t apply now. Thinking like that, in fact, helped me to view Islâm as a human construct. I’d already seen Judaism and Christianity in that way, but it took me a while to apply those same criteria to my own (erstwhile) religion.

This religion has a wide enough scope for scholars and others to interpret Islâm any way they want, violent or peaceful, whether the practice matches Muhammad’s conception of Islâm or not. That in itself should point to its nonâ€"divine nature.
[size=85]“I've been planning to end at 1 hp for years now.”[/size]

Will

Great answer. I didn't mean to single out the Qur'an either, as the Torah and Bible are bursting at the seams with violence and even calls to violence, but I can appreciate what you mean.
I want bad people to look forward to and celebrate the day I die, because if they don't, I'm not living up to my potential.

liveyoungdiefast

Do you think most teenage girls and young women still living with their families in secular nations want to wear the headscarves or do you think it's forced on them in general?

curiosityandthecat

What's your favorite kind of cheese?
-Curio

Kodanshi

Quote from: "liveyoungdiefast"Do you think most teenage girls and young women still living with their families in secular nations want to wear the headscarves or do you think it's forced on them in general?
I honestly can’t say. I’ve known a few who wear it willingly, but for many women headscarves don’t seem too big a deal (the actual head covering, not the niqaab/hijab). I do know that religious muslim families expect women to wear them, so they do so by cultural tradition. My sisters, however, never wore them, nor did my parents insist on it despite the fact that they follow Islâm strictly when it comes to themselves.

I’ve seen a big surge in the past few years, however, of full head coverings (hijab/niqaab) in places around England (where I live). I don’t recall seeing that many women wearing them during my teenage years, so I suspect an influx of people from muslim countries, or else converts to Islâm who feel it the correct thing to do.

It can end up a crutch. You inevitably grow used to it and in the end fear removing it. Take that teacher in Dewsbury who ended up suspended for teaching whilst wearing a niqaab. She didn’t take it off despite teaching children. Women can unveil in front of children. I can’t say why she felt she couldn’t. The veil turned into an emotional crutch perhaps?

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"What's your favorite kind of cheese?
I like a huge variety of cheese, but as for my favourite I’d have to say Mature Wensleydale. How about yours?
[size=85]“I've been planning to end at 1 hp for years now.”[/size]

curiosityandthecat

Quote from: "Kodanshi"I like a huge variety of cheese, but as for my favourite I’d have to say Mature Wensleydale. How about yours?
Blue stilton. Unpasteurized, of course. Beautiful, beautiful.
-Curio

Nimelia

Hi!
I wonder what the origin of the tradition of covering the hair is. Are my thoughts correct,I have spoken to muslim girls who wear hijab and they say that it's because in Arab culture, one considera a woman's hair to be a very important and exclusive part of her. They seem to take great pride in their hair. But I have also tried to think what rational reasons there could be for wearing it. It would only seem logical and practical to cover most parts of the body when living in a land where deserts and sand storms are a part of every day life. Thus, it would be natural to conclude that it has been incorporated as a normal part of a woman's dressing for many centuries, perhaps even longer. And who wants to get their hair full of sand and dust? Many men in the Middle-East dress somewhat similar to women, perhaps not being too strict about covering the hair. Are my thoughts near the truth?

It now seems to me that if a woman in a culture where this is the "dress code" attempts to wear differently, it could be misunderstood to mean that this woman is not very honorable, a woman of loose morals. I live in Norway and there has been a very intense and heated debate whether police women who wants to should be allowed to wear hijab when at work - the main arguments being that we have freedom of speech and that women should be free to wear whatever they like. The idea here in Norway  is that the uniform should be completely neutral.

I have therefore been pondering very much about it.

Tanker

I'm sure I could probably find it somewhere on the internet but as long as we have you mabey you can answer for me? It's common knowledge that Islam is the younger of the Judeo/Christian big three but my question is which of the older two is it a schism of, Christianity or Judeism?
"I'd rather die the go to heaven" - William Murderface Murderface  Murderface-

I've been in fox holes, I'm still an atheist -Me-

God is a cake, and we all know what the cake is.

(my spelling, grammer, and punctuation suck, I know, but regardless of how much I read they haven't improved much since grade school. It's actually a bit of a family joke.

Kodanshi

Quote from: "Nimelia"I wonder what the origin of the tradition of covering the hair is. Are my thoughts correct,I have spoken to muslim girls who wear hijab and they say that it's because in Arab culture, one considera a woman's hair to be a very important and exclusive part of her. They seem to take great pride in their hair. But I have also tried to think what rational reasons there could be for wearing it. It would only seem logical and practical to cover most parts of the body when living in a land where deserts and sand storms are a part of every day life. Thus, it would be natural to conclude that it has been incorporated as a normal part of a woman's dressing for many centuries, perhaps even longer. And who wants to get their hair full of sand and dust? Many men in the Middle-East dress somewhat similar to women, perhaps not being too strict about covering the hair. Are my thoughts near the truth?
I wonder about the same sorts of things. You’ve hit it pretty much spotâ€"on though. ‘Arabs do consider a woman’s hair a part of her ‘sexual parts’. I recall a story I read as a kid once: that in the afterlife, on judgement day, we would all appear naked, and a woman would need the hair to cover her breasts. At that time it never occurred to me that taking such a scenario to its logical conclusion should have forced men to grow hair down to their knees!

As for why it started originally, we can never say for sure â€" but I too support the environmental theory. I’ve seen nomad ‘Arab men and they do dress pretty much like women, with headscarves covering them completely, or at least most of their face. It makes sense. However, women do end up treated as inferior in a way. For example, one hadith has Muhammad stating he loves his male followers to dress in white, whereas women should dress in black. As we know, black absorbs heat more so women would have roasted compared to men! Ridiculous…

Quote from: "Tanker"I'm sure I could probably find it somewhere on the internet but as long as we have you mabey you can answer for me? It's common knowledge that Islam is the younger of the Judeo/Christian big three but my question is which of the older two is it a schism of, Christianity or Judeism?
And herein lies the difficulty and trouble. I don’t consider it a schism of either. It has certainly taken elements from both religions, twisted them due to misunderstanding, or simply not liking the application in the mother religions. It has, however, also taken elements from Zoroastrianism and ‘Arab culture/paganism. Dante viewed Islâm as a schism of Christianity, hence why he featured Muhammad in Hell suffering eternal torture in the form of demons splitting him in ½ repeatedly.
[size=85]“I've been planning to end at 1 hp for years now.”[/size]